Cruisers Forum
 


Join CruisersForum Today

Reply
 
Thread Tools Rate Thread Display Modes
Old 01-09-2012, 13:00   #181
Senior Cruiser
 
atoll's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: gettin naughty on the beach in cornwall
Boat: 63 custom alloy sloop,macwester26,prout snowgoose 37 elite catamaran!
Posts: 9,311
Images: 75
Re: Simple Solar For A Simpleton

Quote:
Originally Posted by VirtualVagabond View Post
One of the negative fearures of wind gennies is the constant noise, so this feature is a big plus.

Vic
sorry correction to that post,i was referring to the air breeze,not the older air x,the air breeze is very quiet in comparison.

we used to switch it off when it started hitting 35 amps charge in squalls,mainly because we were sitting directly below the thing!

halfway up your mizzen i doubt you will hear any thing other than a soft whoosh occasionally.
__________________

__________________
my catamaran building project updates http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/...36#post2502136
atoll is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-09-2012, 13:13   #182
Registered User
 
Jimbo485's Avatar

Join Date: May 2010
Location: some ocean down under
Boat: Kelsall Suncat 40
Posts: 1,247
Re: Simple Solar For A Simpleton

Before you buy a wind genny, see how many more solar panels you can buy for the price of the wind genny. It may surprise you.

Running through the figures in 2010, it was absolutely impossible to justify the purchase of a wind genny in ECONOMIC terms.

We could only justify the wind over solar if:

1) we were going to the high latitudes during winter, or

2) we physically couldn't fit the panels on the boat, either on deck, bimini, davits or railings.

Since we are in the tropics and there is space on the boat, solar beat wind hand down.

In the late 90s, we cruised with a wind genny and no solar. Times change.
__________________

__________________
Jimbo485 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-09-2012, 14:50   #183
Senior Cruiser
 
atoll's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: gettin naughty on the beach in cornwall
Boat: 63 custom alloy sloop,macwester26,prout snowgoose 37 elite catamaran!
Posts: 9,311
Images: 75
Re: Simple Solar For A Simpleton

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jimbo485 View Post
Before you buy a wind genny, see how many more solar panels you can buy for the price of the wind genny. It may surprise you.

Running through the figures in 2010, it was absolutely impossible to justify the purchase of a wind genny in ECONOMIC terms.

We could only justify the wind over solar if:

1) we were going to the high latitudes during winter, or

2) we physically couldn't fit the panels on the boat, either on deck, bimini, davits or railings.

Since we are in the tropics and there is space on the boat, solar beat wind hand down.

In the late 90s, we cruised with a wind genny and no solar. Times change.
if i remember correctly your array is 1200w,which is in the region of what vic needs realistically to be more or less generator free on sunny days on anchor.

perhaps you could post a few photos of the physical size of of your set up.

another thing with solar panels,unless mounting them flat on a cabin top you need to factor in the cost of building suitable frames to support them,some time this can cost more than the panels themselves.
__________________
my catamaran building project updates http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/...36#post2502136
atoll is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-09-2012, 15:25   #184
Registered User
 
Jimbo485's Avatar

Join Date: May 2010
Location: some ocean down under
Boat: Kelsall Suncat 40
Posts: 1,247
Re: Simple Solar For A Simpleton

Quote:
Originally Posted by atoll View Post
if i remember correctly your array is 1200w,which is in the region of what vic needs realistically to be more or less generator free on sunny days on anchor.

perhaps you could post a few photos of the physical size of of your set up.
We have a total of 970 W. There are 340 W on the davits which came with the boat. 1st photo.

We added another 3 panels, 210 W each. 2 of those panels went on the bimini. You can see from the 2nd photo that I put them with a little forward overhang to encourage some breeze to flow along the underside of the panels. These 2 panels also extended out beyond the aft end of the bimini, where I riveted on a piece of aluminium angle to firm it all up and then attached a sail track for a shadecloth.

The 3rd 210W panel is a mobile one and wanders about depending on where the best sunlight is. It has a rubber hose split lengthwise and riveted to the panel perimeter so it doesn't scratch the deck. We bought heavy duty auto jumper cables in bright yellow, cut off the ends and attached them to this mobile panel.

And just to keep some focus on the real reason for cruising, please name the island in the back of the 4th photo, beyond the mobile panel.
Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	340 W on davits.jpg
Views:	74
Size:	399.5 KB
ID:	45904   Click image for larger version

Name:	340 W on davits + 420 W on bimini.jpg
Views:	79
Size:	401.2 KB
ID:	45905  

Click image for larger version

Name:	mobile 210 W with hose riveted around perimiter.jpg
Views:	76
Size:	402.4 KB
ID:	45906   Click image for larger version

Name:	210 W + island.jpg
Views:	86
Size:	400.7 KB
ID:	45907  

__________________
Jimbo485 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-09-2012, 15:39   #185
Senior Cruiser
 
atoll's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: gettin naughty on the beach in cornwall
Boat: 63 custom alloy sloop,macwester26,prout snowgoose 37 elite catamaran!
Posts: 9,311
Images: 75
Re: Simple Solar For A Simpleton

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jimbo485 View Post
We have a total of 970 W. There are 340 W on the davits which came with the boat. 1st photo.

We added another 3 panels, 210 W each. 2 of those panels went on the bimini. You can see from the 2nd photo that I put them with a little forward overhang to encourage some breeze to flow along the underside of the panels. These 2 panels also extended out beyond the aft end of the bimini, where I riveted on a piece of aluminium angle to firm it all up and then attached a sail track for a shadecloth.

The 3rd 210W panel is a mobile one and wanders about depending on where the best sunlight is. It has a rubber hose split lengthwise and riveted to the panel perimeter so it doesn't scratch the deck. We bought heavy duty auto jumper cables in bright yellow, cut off the ends and attached them to this mobile panel.

And just to keep some focus on the real reason for cruising, please name the island in the back of the 4th photo, beyond the mobile panel.
thanks for that,judging by the vegetation the 4 th photo looks like an overcast day in vanuatu,tanna maybe
__________________
my catamaran building project updates http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/...36#post2502136
atoll is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-09-2012, 17:55   #186
Registered User
 
Nicholson58's Avatar

Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: Live aboard
Boat: Camper & Nicholson58 Ketch - ROXY Traverse City, Michigan No.668283
Posts: 3,466
Images: 83
Re: Simple Solar For A Simpleton

Quote:
Originally Posted by VirtualVagabond View Post
Ok... the reading off the + alternator lead is 1.59 to 1.78 amps with the genny off.
With the genny running and the inv/charger off, 1.59 amps
With the genny running and the inv/charger on, 1.08 amps

Does this indicate a short?
could possibly be a short or also dheck out the ignition circuits. Is it OFF withthe key off or is there a contact still made?
__________________
Nicholson58 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-09-2012, 18:54   #187
Moderator Emeritus
 
Ex-Calif's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: May 2007
Location: Singapore
Boat: Maxi 77 - Relax Lah!
Posts: 11,514
Images: 4
Re: Simple Solar For A Simpleton

Quote:
Originally Posted by VirtualVagabond View Post

I always assumed we would have to run the genny a bit as well, but we will be doing most of our sailing in the tropics and sub tropics so hopefully that will be minimal.

Vic
Good news for sun - somewhat not so great for wind.

Quote:
Originally Posted by VirtualVagabond View Post
Did that when disconnecting the positive on the alternator... spanner touched the engine block... WHACK. Sheeesh, nearly spilt the red
Negative cables always get removed first and installed last!

Much safer that way...

Then the only big risk is shorting negative to positive battery post when pulling the neg terminal off the batt.

Quote:
Originally Posted by VirtualVagabond View Post
Very interesting.

At the moment my thinking is that wind gennies are great when actually sailing, but at anchor, which most cruisers find they are 85% of the time, we look for as little wind as possible. This means the wind genny doesn't add much to the bank most of the time.
Right now I'm more inclined to put the $s into as much solar as I can.

With extra $ down the track it would be a great add on because under way is when we will be drawing the most current with Auto pilot and chartplotter going.

Vic

I am biased living at 1 degree north. We don't get lots of wind genny wind around here.

Definitely do the solar first.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DeepFrz View Post
Vic, using your generator for an hour each morning is not such a bad thing. It keeps it in good running order and forces you to do maintenance on it a couple of times a year. Running it early in the morning when the batteries will accept the most charge will allow you to keep your solar panels from covering your boat.
Good time to use 110v and the kettle to make coffee... When we fire up gensets or propane we make hot water and put it in a vacuum pump thermos.


Quote:
Originally Posted by atoll View Post

the wind generator puts out power 24 hours a day,where as down wind with poled out sails you are lucky to get more than 4 hours a day at optimum charge,the rest of the day light period the panels are either in the shadow of the sails or pointing in the wrong direction! " (quote)

<snip>

the great benefit with a wind gen is that they produce power 24/7.
the new generation are very quiet,more quite than having to run your generator any way!


__________________
Definitely a windGen is useful. I probably haven't examined the economics (cost vs. payback) but they seem expensive and like I said I am biased here in the no wind zone.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Jimbo485 View Post
Before you buy a wind genny, see how many more solar panels you can buy for the price of the wind genny. It may surprise you.

Running through the figures in 2010, it was absolutely impossible to justify the purchase of a wind genny in ECONOMIC terms.
This is my sense of things and leads me to believe the Wind Gen is added when solar space is filled up -or- when the boat buck kitty makes this a logical next add - 24/7 charging is the real benefit.

As to the noise factor it doesn't bother me and I don't know why some people complain (jealousy?) It's just another noise of cruising...
__________________
Relax Lah! is For Sale <--- Click
Click--> Custom CF Google Search or CF Rules
You're gonna need a bigger boat... - Martin Brody
Ex-Calif is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-09-2012, 05:10   #188
Senior Cruiser
 
atoll's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: gettin naughty on the beach in cornwall
Boat: 63 custom alloy sloop,macwester26,prout snowgoose 37 elite catamaran!
Posts: 9,311
Images: 75
Re: Simple Solar For A Simpleton

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ex-Calif View Post
Good news for sun - somewhat not so great for wind.



Negative cables always get removed first and installed last!

Much safer that way...

Then the only big risk is shorting negative to positive battery post when pulling the neg terminal off the batt.




I am biased living at 1 degree north. We don't get lots of wind genny wind around here.

Definitely do the solar first.



Good time to use 110v and the kettle to make coffee... When we fire up gensets or propane we make hot water and put it in a vacuum pump thermos.




Definitely a windGen is useful. I probably haven't examined the economics (cost vs. payback) but they seem expensive and like I said I am biased here in the no wind zone.




This is my sense of things and leads me to believe the Wind Gen is added when solar space is filled up -or- when the boat buck kitty makes this a logical next add - 24/7 charging is the real benefit.

As to the noise factor it doesn't bother me and I don't know why some people complain (jealousy?) It's just another noise of cruising...
when talking about the economics of an airbreez wind generator,compared to a simmilar output solar panel on has to consider that in trade wind conditions it will be putting out 3 times more power, in a 24hour period

so doing the math,a kyocera 210 watt panel is in the region of $450 plus whatever it costs to mount it.
an air breeze is $900 plus mounting.
the panel works for 8 hours a day,the windgen 24 hrs,so to get the equivalent output you would need 3 panels and mounts,as opposed to one gen and one mount,at $1350 as opposed to $900 amp for amp the wind gen is less obtrusive and cheaper!

consider also the constant draw of power by appliances working 24/7,and the nessacary extra battery capacity and cycles to store the power overnight using solar,and the economics get even better!
__________________
my catamaran building project updates http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/...36#post2502136
atoll is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-09-2012, 05:27   #189
Registered User
 
Jimbo485's Avatar

Join Date: May 2010
Location: some ocean down under
Boat: Kelsall Suncat 40
Posts: 1,247
Re: Simple Solar For A Simpleton

Quote:
Originally Posted by atoll View Post
when talking about the economics of an airbreez wind generator,compared to a simmilar output solar panel on has to consider that in trade wind conditions it will be putting out 3 times more power, in a 24hour period

so doing the math,a kyocera 210 watt panel is in the region of $450 plus whatever it costs to mount it.
an air breeze is $900 plus mounting.
the panel works for 8 hours a day,the windgen 24 hrs,so to get the equivalent output you would need 3 panels and mounts,as opposed to one gen and one mount,at $1350 as opposed to $900 amp for amp the wind gen is less obtrusive and cheaper!
Some of my maths is a little shaky, but in 2010 I could get a 210W panel for about $300 and attach it to the deck with a few screws, a bit of scrap and bugger all. That same panel will give me, on a long term, proven, real life, average, about 80 Ah per day. So that is about $3.75/Ah/day.

What does the Windgen give us in terms of real Ah per day and what does it cost in terms of $installed?
__________________
Jimbo485 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-09-2012, 05:43   #190
Senior Cruiser
 
atoll's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: gettin naughty on the beach in cornwall
Boat: 63 custom alloy sloop,macwester26,prout snowgoose 37 elite catamaran!
Posts: 9,311
Images: 75
Re: Simple Solar For A Simpleton

up to 14 ah,or 336amp hours,averaging 89ah in the test,but this was not in trade wind conditions,so say ave of 8amp or 200amp hours ,airbreeze costing $900,so

about $0.45/ah/day, with a pole mount @$150,and cables are going to be less as you need 3 sets for the equivalent 2-3 panels.
__________________
my catamaran building project updates http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/...36#post2502136
atoll is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-09-2012, 05:50   #191
Don't ask if you can't handle it
 
sailorboy1's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: On the boat somewhere
Boat: Hunter 410
Posts: 12,310
Re: Simple Solar For A Simpleton

Quote:
Originally Posted by atoll View Post
when talking about the economics of an airbreez wind generator,compared to a simmilar output solar panel on has to consider that in trade wind conditions it will be putting out 3 times more power, in a 24hour period

true but unless you have the battery capacity it is just wasted and current one can but at least 800 watts of solar for the price but then you still would need the battery capacity to store it

the thing that attracts me to wind someday is that it makes power at night, so even if it just powers the autopilot it may be worth it
__________________
jobless, houseless, clueless, living on a boat and cruising around somewhere
sailorboy1 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-09-2012, 05:50   #192
Registered User
 
Jimbo485's Avatar

Join Date: May 2010
Location: some ocean down under
Boat: Kelsall Suncat 40
Posts: 1,247
Re: Simple Solar For A Simpleton

Well, there you go, Vic!
__________________
Jimbo485 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-09-2012, 06:10   #193
Senior Cruiser
 
atoll's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: gettin naughty on the beach in cornwall
Boat: 63 custom alloy sloop,macwester26,prout snowgoose 37 elite catamaran!
Posts: 9,311
Images: 75
Re: Simple Solar For A Simpleton

Quote:
Originally Posted by Don Lucas View Post
true but unless you have the battery capacity it is just wasted and current one can but at least 800 watts of solar for the price but then you still would need the battery capacity to store it

the thing that attracts me to wind someday is that it makes power at night, so even if it just powers the autopilot it may be worth it
this is the point i have been trying to get accross,due to the nature of my work,delivery skipper,i spend 85% of my time on boats underway,and 15% or less at anchor!

one thing i have noticed delivering boats that have great charging systems,solar supplying enough for the vessel at anchor, is that once you leave the land,the overcast sets in and the wind picks up.

you are still running the same systems as you would at anchor,but now you are also running an auto pilot chewing up the 4-8 ah,the plotter,maybe the radar,extra lights,vhf etc taking another 4-8 ah.

the otherwise good array on the stern and pilothouse roof is now either in the shade most of the time or pointing in the wrong direction!

in perfect sailing conditions on boats that dont have generators you end up running you main engine 4hours or more a day motoring downwind,just to keep up with the demand
__________________
my catamaran building project updates http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/...36#post2502136
atoll is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-09-2012, 05:50   #194
Marine Service Provider

Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Burraneer Bay, Sydney.
Boat: Fountain Pajot, He'lia 44
Posts: 325
Images: 1
Send a message via Skype™ to Gordon
Re: Simple Solar For A Simpleton

Would the island be Morea in Tahati!
__________________
Gordon is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-09-2012, 07:26   #195
Registered User
 
Jimbo485's Avatar

Join Date: May 2010
Location: some ocean down under
Boat: Kelsall Suncat 40
Posts: 1,247
Re: Simple Solar For A Simpleton

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gordon View Post
Would the island be Morea in Tahati!
Bora Bora.
__________________

__________________
Jimbo485 is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
solar

Thread Tools
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off




Copyright 2002- Social Knowledge, LLC All Rights Reserved.

All times are GMT -7. The time now is 11:23.


Google+
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Social Knowledge Networks
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.

ShowCase vBulletin Plugins by Drive Thru Online, Inc.