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Old 04-12-2014, 18:09   #16
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Re: SAFELY wiring a 220v portable genset to shorepower inlet

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Originally Posted by CS Cruiser View Post
The neutral is the dedicated return fault path by design, hence it should only be bonded to ground at the source, read source as one location only.


The "hot" and "neutral" conductors complete an electrical circuit (to a load or waiting to be connected to a load). The ground conductor is the "fault" conductor. Normally there is no current flowing in the ground conductor.

Let's back up a bit: From a generator or transformer (including the one serving your home or marina) the two conductors have no relation to ground. You might measure 120 volts AC or 240 volts AC between them but any reading to ground (let's say a metal pipe or ground rod) would be meaningless. It's at your home or marina's electrical panel (where the power company connection is) that one of these conductors is connected to ground and becomes the neutral. The other is considered "hot" and would then measure 120 or 240 volts to ground.

On your boat while on shorepower, the neutral and ground are connected at the marina's entrance panel. Only when on inverter or genset power are the neutral and ground connected together. The National Electrical Code prohibits multiple neutral to ground connections.
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Old 04-12-2014, 18:12   #17
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Re: SAFELY wiring a 220v portable genset to shorepower inlet

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Originally Posted by dohenyboy View Post
I do appreciate the input but sometimes people read too quickly. There is no shorepower inlet on the boat. I never said there was. I stated that a 50 amp shorepower cord has 4 wires.
I would like to find a "qualified marine electrician." The last and only one I engaged burned up a generator by miswiring. So, I have learned to do it myself, save money and avoid fires.
As I said, I just have to toss the genset or get a transformer.

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I have a big 220v portable generator. Not sure of the brand but it is blue and looks like an overgrown Honda. It has a pair of outlets on it that look like the two round-prong European outlets. So, if i wanted to run a 220v appliance I would be all set. But what I want to do is make up a cord that will have, on the other end, a 50 amp, 4 wire shore power connector so i can plug into my boat's shorepower and thus run the battery charger, etc.
2 hot wires coming from the genset.I know where they go..... the ground and neutral from the shorepower adapter... what do I connect them to? just ground them together?
DohenyBoy - Not how all of us who might be able to help read your postings that way. What I don't understand is if the boat is European and configured for 220V and the generator is European and also 220V then just hook the two together. It only take three wires. If you happen to have a four wire cord and connector set around, just use three of the wires and skip the last one. The only thing to work out is proper earthing. Is one leg of the outlet on the generator bonded to the frame? Sometimes it is, sometimes it isn't. Do you ground the frame to a good earthing point? If one leg of the electrical system on the generator is bonded to the frame then an earth ground it not required (although it is, IMO, a good idea). If no leg of the electrical outlet is bonded to the frame then it gets more complicated.


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Originally Posted by CS Cruiser View Post
The neutral is the dedicated return fault path by design, hence it should only be bonded to ground at the source, read source as one location only.
CS - actually just the opposite. The neutral is the regular return path. In normal operation it will be carrying the full current of the system. It is not intended to clear faults. The equipment grounding conductor (PE) is the dedicated fault path. It does not normally carry current, but will carry current when clearing a fault. In many places the two are connected together at a single point, this is mainly to control where the fault current flows so that it doesn't take alternate paths.
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Old 04-12-2014, 18:42   #18
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Re: SAFELY wiring a 220v portable genset to shorepower inlet

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Originally Posted by Dsanduril View Post
DohenyBoy - Not how all of us who might be able to help read your postings that way. What I don't understand is if the boat is European and configured for 220V and the generator is European and also 220V then just hook the two together. It only take three wires. If you happen to have a four wire cord and connector set around, just use three of the wires and skip the last one. The only thing to work out is proper earthing. Is one leg of the outlet on the generator bonded to the frame? Sometimes it is, sometimes it isn't. Do you ground the frame to a good earthing point? If one leg of the electrical system on the generator is bonded to the frame then an earth ground it not required (although it is, IMO, a good idea). If no leg of the electrical outlet is bonded to the frame then it gets more complicated.




CS - actually just the opposite. The neutral is the regular return path. In normal operation it will be carrying the full current of the system. It is not intended to clear faults. The equipment grounding conductor (PE) is the dedicated fault path. It does not normally carry current, but will carry current when clearing a fault. In many places the two are connected together at a single point, this is mainly to control where the fault current flows so that it doesn't take alternate paths.
Neutral current path.
Neutral current should flow only on the grounded (neutral) conductor, not the effective fault current path or the earth.
Fault current path.
Metal parts of premise wiring should be bonded to an effective fault current path that provides a low-impedance path necessary to clear line-to-case faults. Fault current should flow only on the effective fault-current path, not the grounded conductor (neutral) or earth.
For systems operating at 600V or less, the earth will not carry sufficient fault current to clear a line-to-case fault. For example, a 120V fault to the earth (assuming a 25-ohm resistance) will draw only 4.8A (I = E/Z, I = 120/425 ohms, I = 4.8A), which won't open a 15A protection device.
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Old 04-12-2014, 18:48   #19
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Re: SAFELY wiring a 220v portable genset to shorepower inlet

Exactly!

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Originally Posted by CS Cruiser View Post
... Fault current should flow only on the effective fault-current path, not the grounded conductor (neutral) or earth.
My point is that that is the opposite of what is posted above:

Quote:
The neutral is the dedicated return fault path by design
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Old 04-12-2014, 19:38   #20
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Re: SAFELY wiring a 220v portable genset to shorepower inlet

"There is no shorepower inlet on the boat. I never said there was."

If that is the case, how were we supposed to interpret this sentence?

"a 50 amp, 4 wire shore power connector so i can plug into my boat's shorepower"

So finally I think I understand. You want to plug into the DOCK'S SHORE POWER OUTLET. Sheese, this is hard work. So what is the other end connecting to if the boat doesn't have a shore power INLET?
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Old 04-12-2014, 19:45   #21
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Re: SAFELY wiring a 220v portable genset to shorepower inlet

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Exactly!

My point is that that is the opposite of what is posted above:
If you stopped referring to the neutral as the grounded / neutral conductor, it would help. The neutral is only grounded in some systems, and only then at the SOURCE, sometimes the meter cupboard.

The neutral is the dedicated return path for current to the source.

The ground is a dedicated return path for FAULT current to ground.

Simple.
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Old 04-12-2014, 20:20   #22
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Re: SAFELY wiring a 220v portable genset to shorepower inlet

lol... so what is your current plan? run a cord from the charger through the window to the gen on the deck?...


so I'm guessing you have no ac panel either?


you still haven't answered what you have. so I will make it easy for you.


here is 2 mulitiple choice questions.

1. my gen is
a 230v 50hz European
b. 240v 60hz us
c. 120v 60hz us


2. my charger is
a. 230v 50hz European
b. 240v 60 hz us
c. 120v 60 hz us
d 100-240v 50-60hz international charger.
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Old 04-12-2014, 20:32   #23
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Re: SAFELY wiring a 220v portable genset to shorepower inlet

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Originally Posted by MarkSF View Post
If you stopped referring to the neutral as the grounded / neutral conductor, it would help. The neutral is only grounded in some systems, and only then at the SOURCE, sometimes the meter cupboard.

The neutral is the dedicated return path for current to the source.

The ground is a dedicated return path for FAULT current to ground.

Simple.
Forget delta systems, don't apply for the purposes,of this thread, in the wye configuration the neutral must be bonded to ground, and yes at one point only that being after the local utilities dimarcation point on the consumers side, both NEC & CEC make this a madatory minimum requirement, and when your not connected to"shore power" the ships inverter or generator has to implement this function, but never together(with shore power)in either case.
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Old 04-12-2014, 20:51   #24
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Re: SAFELY wiring a 220v portable genset to shorepower inlet

I wasn't referring to branch wiring, the neutral grounded conductor I'm referring to is exactly that, the one point at which it is grounded at supply source whether distribution system or genset etc....
If a bonding jumper is not installed from the equipment grounding conductor to the grounded (neutral) terminal of the derived system, then a ground fault cannot be cleared and the metal parts of electrical equipment, as well as metal piping and structure steel will become and remain energized providing the potential for electric shock as well as fires.
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Old 04-12-2014, 20:52   #25
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Re: SAFELY wiring a 220v portable genset to shorepower inlet

Quote:
Originally Posted by MarkSF View Post
"There is no shorepower inlet on the boat. I never said there was."

If that is the case, how were we supposed to interpret this sentence?

"a 50 amp, 4 wire shore power connector so i can plug into my boat's shorepower"

So finally I think I understand. You want to plug into the DOCK'S SHORE POWER OUTLET. Sheese, this is hard work. So what is the other end connecting to if the boat doesn't have a shore power INLET?

thread title....

"SAFELY wiring a 220v portable genset to shorepower inlet "
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Old 04-12-2014, 21:12   #26
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Re: SAFELY wiring a 220v portable genset to shorepower inlet

In a properly designed circuit, if a fault were to occur on the 120-volt outlet between the hot-wire and the ground, the current will flow through ground wire back to the main panel, where it will move to the neutral wire via the neutral-to-ground bond, up to the utility transformer, back down the hot wire to the circuit breaker, tripping the breaker.
In an faulty designed circuit, if a fault were to occur on the 120-volt outlet between the hot-wire and the ground, the current will flow through ground wire back to the main panel, where because it does not have a neutral-to-ground bond, the current will be forced through the ground rod, into and across the earth, and up the utility ground rod and in to the utility transformer, back down the hot wire to the circuit breaker. The resistance of the earth is almost always to great to allow sufficient current flow to trip the breaker, and you end up with a steady-state ground fault, that never trips the breaker, and this is a hazardous situation indeed. You cannot use the earth as a conductor.
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Old 04-12-2014, 21:17   #27
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Re: SAFELY wiring a 220v portable genset to shorepower inlet

If the OP has the time, submit a quick drawing of what you have and what you want to achieve, might clarify things for all interested.
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Old 05-12-2014, 12:01   #28
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Re: SAFELY wiring a 220v portable genset to shorepower inlet

You have a 220V~generator and a 220V~batery charger with two outlets. If you connect these 2 it will works. the second outlet you can use o a transformer 220V into 110V~ and connect to any American tools or what ever!
If do not have the Europe standard plug change the outlet into American standard outlet and make it fits.
Both systems have the same wires to know , ground, neutral and fase (hot).
For better advice find out the brand and the electrical power off the generator, or find a engineer who knows about regulations and so on from different standards.
But in theory so far you describe you can use the generator easily, but not connect the neutral and ground in the outlets or plugs!!!!!! Google for transformer but find out the power capacity of your generator and than decide the power for the transformer.
For wall connection there other rule also depending where you are!! But you did not mention you have.
Regards Simon
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Old 05-12-2014, 12:04   #29
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Re: SAFELY wiring a 220v portable genset to shorepower inlet

Do not connect them together I want to and connect them separate. I'm sorry.
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Old 05-12-2014, 12:05   #30
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Re: SAFELY wiring a 220v portable genset to shorepower inlet

In the plug nor the outlet!!!
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