Rolls versus AGM Batteries

[btrayfors]

The Rolls/Surette batteries are very high quality flooded lead acid types with heavy plates and top-notch construction. They will WAY outlast any AGM battery on the market.

If your application can take flooded batteries (i.e., if you can take care of them, checking them periodically for water level) and if you don't need to stuff a battery into a small compartment on its side...then I'd certainly go with Rolls over AGMs for most every application I can think of. Proven technology, proven performance, proven longevity.

AGMs have an ability to accept a much higher charge rate than do flooded batteries or gels, so they can be charged in a shorter period of time. However, with any big battery bank (like yours seems to be) you'd likely need to make expensive changes to your charging systems to take advantage of the AGM's higher charging acceptance rate AND to avoid burning out your alternator as it tries to deliver full power for an extended period of time.

Rolls or AGMs? Rolls. Hands down.

IMHO,

Bill

[Delfin]

Originally Posted by Pblais

Batteries are a total package from charger to alternator to to load requirements. Banks too large never get recharged and failure to fully recharge will be the sooner path to failure. Too small and the severe deep discharge reduces the lifespan as well. You manage batteries over a lifespan and you charge then in the same manner. The better you do that the longer they last and the less money you spend.

Couldn't agree more. Off grid power is a system from charging source to regulation to battery type. Poorly managed and designed and you will have problems. Carefully managed and designed and you can get your money's worth out of AGM batteries, and then some. I have to respectfully disagree with the advice against mixing starter and house battery types. I know you are not supposed to, but I use a latching relay to charge the starter batts (wet cell) in combination with the house banks once they reach a preset rate of charge. A 3 step regulator manages the charging, and 5 years later the AGM have exactly the same apparent capacity they had on day one and the wet cells are going strong.

[btrayfors]

AGMs and flooded batteries have almost exactly the same charging profile in terms of voltages. And, in my experience and in the view of many battery experts, typical (recommended) charging voltages are too low anyway.

Ergo, NO PROBLEM mixing AGM house batteries and flooded start batteries using the same charging profile.

But, as mentioned above, I'd not use an isolator or a combiner. Much better to use an EchoCharge or DuoCharge to maintain the start battery, with all charging sources (battery charger, generator, alternator, solar panels, wind generator, etc.) going to the HOUSE batteries.

Bill

[sailorboy1]

So there have been 2 different camps as to whether the Rolls are better/worst/as good as AGMs so far.

To some of the other questions:
- alternator is 100-amp Balmar with regulator
- the boat is on a mooring and not plugged in
- mostly is a weekend boat
- due to weather the boat normally has to motor at least an hour each weekend
- I normally don't run my refrigator
- I normally do not let the batteries go below 50% charge
- the start battery has its' own little solar panel that probably keeps it pretty charged
- the battery came with 2 4D house batteries, either or both can be selected to the main DC panel or to the inverter (can use 1 for the DC and the other for the inverter if you want)
- came from factory with an isolator that I think has failed (a different problem)
- I can and do check the battery water and it isn't a big hassle

So the chices I'm currently considering are:
- replace the bad 4D wet cell with a new one ($230) and let the old 1 pull that down, but total capacity is still going to good enough for my use
-replace both with inexpensive 4D wet cells ($460) just so they are same
- upgrade to 2 new wet cell Rolls (around $1000)
- upgrade to AGMs ($1000 - $1250)

[Maine Sail]

Originally Posted by Don Lucas

So there have been 2 different camps as to whether the Rolls are better/worst/as good as AGMs so far.

To some of the other questions:
- alternator is 100-amp Balmar with regulator
- the boat is on a mooring and not plugged in
- mostly is a weekend boat
- due to weather the boat normally has to motor at least an hour each weekend
- I normally don't run my refrigator
- I normally do not let the batteries go below 50% charge
- the start battery has its' own little solar panel that probably keeps it pretty charged
- the battery came with 2 4D house batteries, either or both can be selected to the main DC panel or to the inverter (can use 1 for the DC and the other for the inverter if you want)
- came from factory with an isolator that I think has failed (a different problem)
- I can and do check the battery water and it isn't a big hassle

So the chices I'm currently considering are:
- replace the bad 4D wet cell with a new one ($230) and let the old 1 pull that down, but total capacity is still going to good enough for my use
-replace both with inexpensive 4D wet cells ($460) just so they are same
- upgrade to 2 new wet cell Rolls (around $1000)
- upgrade to AGMs ($1000 - $1250)

In my experience with many mooring sailied banks of AGM's this puts you in the flooded battery camp. I replace a TON of 2,3 & 4 year old AGM batts on mooring sailed boats.. AGM's REALLY, REALLY, REALLY like to be recharged back to 100% after each use. If you can plug in at a dock your going to do well.

Just yesterday tested a Lifeline group 31 for a customer who purchased it in July of 2010. Should have a min of 600 CCA and is putting up just 422 CCA.

Replaced a bank two week ago that were just 2.5 years old on a fully gourmet charging system, but no solar for on the mooring. This owner went back to wets as he's chewed through three banks of Lifeline's in 9 years.

The recommendation for care of Lifeline batteries comes from Justin G. at Lifeline. This is all based on max DOD of 50%.: (information provided by morganscloud.com)

1. Fully charge after each discharge. Estimated life: 6-9 Years.
2. Fully Recharge at least once a week and equalize once a month. Estimated life: 4-6 Years.
3. Only recharge to 85% and equalize once a month. Estimated life: 2-4 years.
4. Only charge to 85% and never equalize. Estimated life: 1 year.

Most mooring sailed boats fall into category #4...


Oh and Rolls batteries are amazing. I have a customer with a 13 year old bank of their 2V cells...

[Highlander40]

One hour runtime per week won't give the batterys a full charge.
AGM's will have a short life under those conditions. Especially with no shore power hook up.

Wet cells can tolerate the trickle charging of the solar cells and perpetual partial charge .

For a weekend boat, what's the point of going for the Rolls? They are good but the cost will be tough to recoupe.

Maine Sail has it right. Straight from Lifeline.

[sailorboy1]

The point of the Rolls is whether they will provide better life than a standard wet cell deep cycle battery. If they last around twice as long (even 1.5 times given the hassle factor) they worth it to me for the extra cost. But of course if they wouldn't be worth it.

While I probably only average 1 hour, I would say every few weeks the weather conditions force me into motoring 2-3 hours at time to make it home (4.5 hours just this past Sunday). So I would say the batteries get a full charge at least monthly.

[Vasco]

Originally Posted by Maine Sail

In my experience with many mooring sailied banks of AGM's this puts you in the flooded battery camp. I replace a TON of 2,3 & 4 year old AGM batts on mooring sailed boats.. AGM's REALLY, REALLY, REALLY like to be recharged back to 100% after each use. If you can plug in at a dock your going to do well.

Found this out the hard way. Had to get rid of my AGM's after two years. For cruising boats they're not the best as most times you're using the band between 50%discharged and 85% charged. You're seldom 100% charged as the last 15% just takes too long. I've got Trojans now and they've been working great.

[Pblais]

So the choices I'm currently considering are:
- replace the bad 4D wet cell with a new one ($230) and let the old 1 pull that down, but total capacity is still going to good enough for my use
-replace both with inexpensive 4D wet cells ($460) just so they are same
- upgrade to 2 new wet cell Rolls (around $1000)
- upgrade to AGMs ($1000 - $1250)

I'm not seeing a large amount of electrical usage here. You also lack shore power to recharge with. I would go for the smallest flood battery bank you can make work. Given the limited amount of charging capacity the bigger the bank the worse you will be. You'll slowly drain the bank and never get it fully charged. If you don't run a fridge much then you really don't need much for batteries. Match the bank to the amount of electricity you need.

If your plans change and you intend on taking off for long periods and use a fridge all the time then the bigger bank will prove better but not right now. Batteries inside the warehouse don't cost you anything and don't age. Any capacity you own has to be recharged and with a large bank the acceptance rate for the last amp hours take a lot longer. In your case the smallest bank will last the longest and cost less. You don't need 2 - 4D batteries.

I find 4 Trojan golf carts work pretty well for weekend use and a few long trips per year. I can run the fridge for two to three days straight in hot weather on the hook and motor a half day to get it all back. I can use my mini invertyer to charge phones and run a small TV. No microwave! If I was going longer I would look at the Rolls or other industrial batteries for the thicker plates. Storage and weight distribution come into play as well.

Charging ability has to be able to match the size of the bank. If you get the bank small enough, solar and wind will help a lot. If you go for a huge bank the wind and solar won't allow you to run the engine much less. Solar and wind reduce the engine hours and the noise that comes with it. It costs a lot for that added benefit but it's less noise and more peace and quiet.

[Jon D]

Originally Posted by Don Lucas

So back to the Rolls batteries; are they worth the extra cost?

I have Rolls installed so I spent the money.

Unless you are cruising full time I would not spend the money on Rolls.

In fact given that I am not cruising full time now, if my bank dies I will replace with AGMs. The Rolls really like seeing a full discharge cycle that moves current off the plates etc. The kind of light loads casual use brings does not fully leverage the design. Remember the original design was high capacity lots of cycles. Industrial batteries.

[ka4wja]

Originally Posted by Don Lucas

So back to the Rolls batteries; are they worth the extra cost?

Don,
As I have Rolls batteries on-board, and my previos batteries were also Rolls / Surrettes batteries, and I've used both Rolls and other batteries over the years.....and since I'm pretty good at electrics/electronics (been in the electronics business for almost 30 years now), and have taught seminars on alternative energy, batteries, etc..... perhaps I can add a few tidbits that may help????


The short answer is, Yes....
{Comparing the $ per A/H, the expected life span (both # of cycles and years of service), 7 to 10 year warranties, and the real/actual capacity (in A/H).....and you'll see that they seem pricey, but are really pretty reasonable....}


The medium length answer Osirisail and Bill (btrayfors) gave you.....(and I agree with them...)


The long answer is, it depends on your use patterns and your charging set-up.....
Meaning if you're cycling daily and not going to be recharging completely....and/or going to be near civilization for years to come, then less expensive wet-types become more cost effective....

And, specificly to your case.....
Fix your charging system, and go over (redesign???) your electrical system......battery, wiring, monitoring, charging, solar, etc...house vs. starting.....lose the combiners/relays....actually making one large battery bank (use for house and starting is generally good idea!).....ALL BEFORE you buy any new batteries......


Details::::
I've used Rolls / Surettes batteries on various boats on/off for ~ 40 years.....and just recently (a month ago) changed out some 6+ year old (and badly neglected by my brother) Rolls batteries with new Rolls batteries.....
I answered a few messages about them (see quotes below) and wrote an article (w/ a few photos) about my recent change (see link)...

What started this process.....My 6 year old Rolls 8D's had a 7 year warranty......and, properly cared for,
I suspect that they'd have given 7 to 10 years of good service, maybe
a bit more....
But, I had a frustrating issue with maintenance....
After adding water to them in Europe in Oct 2007, I sailed to St. Thomas
where my brother was in charge of maintenance until June 2008.....9 months
of daily cycling w/ frig/freezer and solar array, etc. with NO water being
checked / added....
In June 2008, I found soime dry plates and hot batteries.....
To say I was pissed is an understatement!!!

After adding water (distilled) and charging/cycling them, I did an
equalization or two.....
I found good numbers on the hydrometer (and voltmeter), but did also find one cell in each of two batteries, and two cells in the other battery to be
consistantly lower than all the rest.....
Over the next 2 1/2 years I had no troubles, but found those suspect cells using more water, and in addition, I surmised that I had lost some A/H
capacity.....
So, while I still had no troubles, I decided to bite the bullet before a
failure, and change out the batteries now....

I just recently changed out my batteries....and I'd be glad to
pass on my thoughts, criteria, installation ideas, and photos.....

1) The criteria I used, in order of importance, was:
A) Capacity...
B) Reputation.....
C) Longevity.....
D) Cost......



A) Capacity.....
As I'd had no issues over the past 6+ years with my 825 A/H house bank,
consisting of three 275 A/H Rolls "Big Red" 8D's, I had no real "need" to
increase capacity.....But....
But, just like fresh water on-board, there's no such thing as too much
electrical energy/battery capacity......
So, I figured if I could increase capacity without losing any other space on board (i.e. not removing water tanks, nor using other storage spaces), I'd
go for it.....(and, I believe it was Bill, on "Outpost", who mentioned using
the Rolls 2-volt cells a few years ago, so I thought if I could do the same,
I'd have a super install, with 1125 A/H capacity....)

B) Rolls/Surrettes has about the best rep in the world, and I've had
personal experience with them over many years......(and with some Trojan "traction" / industrial batteries, and some Seinssenhier models coming in
second place.....)

C) Longevity, is a tough issue since most find longevity is directly tied to use/maintenance patterns.....

BUT, keeping those things equal, deep-cycle battery longevity is directly tied to the positive plat thickness.....

My new Rolls / Surrettes 2-volt cells, the 12-EHG-375PM's.rated at 375 A/H each (at the normal "20-hr rate").have a positive plate thickness of 0.140" (compared to my old Rolls 8D's positive plate thickness of 0.125")......

And, although I was unable to verify the Trojan T-105/T-125/T-145 pos plate thickness, I know it is no thicker than their L-16's which have 0.090" thick plates, and I suspect falls into the normal golf cart battery pos plate thickness range of .070" to 0.090"......

D) Cost per A/H is a very telling spec.....
Using this you find Trojan golf cart batteries win......but Rolls /
Surrettes comes in second place......
And, in my opinion, if you combine the longevity into the cost, Rolls /
Surrettes wins.....



2) In addition to the criteria above, I had to install my batteries.....
[Actually getting them into / out-of the boat is pretty easy.....using the
main halyard, to a line thru a block on the boom near the sheet attachment bail, and tied to the battery handles......one person on the winch and one guiding the battery up and thru the companionway, thru the dodger opening, and then swinging the boom outboard until the battery can be lowered easily to the dock....]

But, I'd need to move new batteries from the driveway, around the house, thru the yard, and down 37 steps (almost 3 flights of stairs), and then out 300' to the end of the dock.....
Doing this with 175 lbs. batteries wasn't going to be easy....But....
But, doing it with 35 lbs batteries WAS do-able.....(the individual 375 A/H
Rolls / Surrettes 2-volt cells weigh 35 lbs each....times 18 cells.....it was quite a bit of work, but do-able!!!)



3) So, combining my battery choice criteria with my installation
complications, made my choice pretty easy.....
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~



As for batteries, Rolls/Surrettes in particular, here's the (brief)
skinny.....
{FYI, except for a few days here and there running the Air Cond at the dock,I haven't been plugged into shore power for over 4.5 years......and have had the refrig, etc. 365 days a year for 3 - 4 years straight, etc.....so I have used and "cycled" my batteries pretty well over the years.....so, those with shorter seasons, or those not out-and-about much, would not have as much time on their batteries....}

1) Cost of lead has gone way up in the past couple years.....hence
batteries with lead in them (all of our house and start batteries are
lead-acid, whether the "acid" is wet, gelled, or in a glass mat) cost
more....and those with more lead cost even more....

2) Unfortunately you've hit upon the major hitch in using
Rolls/Surrettes batteries....
They seem EXPENSIVE......(but, when compared in $ per A/H, they're pretty reasonable)
And, there are very plausible agreements on BOTH sides of the subject,
whether they are worth the $$$ or not.....
If you're in areas were changing batteries isn't an issue (S. Florida,
Chesapeake, etc.) then some would find the added cost of Rolls to be
unnecessary......but for those heading out for a few years, around the world and/or to far-flung, remote locales, would probably find that they ARE worth the $$$......(these applications aren't the issue.....it's the ones that fall in-between these examples, where the arguments ensue....)

In addition to my current Rolls/Surrettes batteries, I've been experienced
with them since a kid.....on many of my parents old boats, etc....my
brother's bosses boats, etc...as well as on other boats over the years.....
Except for my brothers' neglect and resultant reduction in capacity of my
recent house bank, I've found Rolls batteries to out-last all others.....(I
know on my parent's last boat, their house bank of Rolls 6-volt
("L-16-sized") was still going strong after 10 years.....)

In my opinion Rolls is the way to go.....(with Trojan T-145's or L-16's in
second place....) But, this is just my opinion......not gospel!!!

Even if you're not sure they're worth it, with a warranty of 7 or 10 years
(depending on exact batteries) you do get some additional peace of mind..


3) I had three Rolls 12-HHG-8D's ("big red's"), 275 A/H each, and weighing
~ 175 lbs....for which replacements were quoted at about $550 - $600
each......
So, I could simply replace when needed....cost about $1750....


4) Or, I could look into other alternatives......meaning ways to make life
easier, especially lugging batteries around.....
And, I've thought about the 2-volt cells for quite a while......which would
give me ease of install / maintenance, as well as an increase in
capacity.....
The choices from Rolls/Surrettes which would fit the spaces were limited to their 12-HHG-325's or their 12-EHG-375's (325 A/H or 375 A/H,
respectively)
And, the prices I got were about $750 - $775 each for the 325's....
And, $850 - $875 each for the 375's......

I decided on the big 375 A/H, 12-EHG-375PM's.....
Which have 0.140" thick positive plates (and 0.120" neg plates), making them even better at really deep-cycling than their other deep-cycle
batteries......(there's a lot more to Rolls/Surrettes batteries than just
their A/H ratings....)

I've been using East Coast Battery in Ft. Lauderdale, FL for many
years.....and they ordered batteries for me....took about 3 - 4 weeks......

These new Rolls cost me about $2500 for an 1125 A/H battery bank.....or about $2.25 per A/H.....which corresponds nicely to what's typically sold these days as "normal" marine deep-cycle batteries.....


Some comparisons....
Trojan T-145's (260 A/H) are about $400 a pair....(their 6-volts, so you
need two to compare to 12-volt batteries)......
These are about the least expensive deep-cycle batteries for a marine house bank.....(at about $1.55 per A/H).....

The cheapest I've seen Lifeline AGM's advertized for, was $500 for their 250 A/H 8D....($2 per A/H)......but never heard of anyone buying them for that price......most seem to pay $700 to $750 each (About $3 per
A/H).......Defender sells them for $690, and that seems to be about "normal"....

And for those looking at retail.....look at West Marine......their AGM 8D's
(at 245 A/H) sell for $700.....(almost $3 per A/H)....
And, their 225 A/H Gel's are about the same price, $700.....(over $3 per
A/H).....

So, when you do some comparisons, based on dollars per A/H,
Rolls/Surrettes are NOT really that high priced.....and when you look at
their quality, their reputation, and their warranty...they're a pretty good
deal.....


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~



4) Here's some photos of my new set-up, along with a brief write-up....
http://www.c470.jerodisys.com/470pix/47145.htm

And, here's a direct link to the Rolls/Surrettes 12-EHG-375PM spec
sheet.....
http://www.rollsbattery.com/pdf/12EHG375P.pdf



5) Specific to your questions.....
a) Whatever battery configuration you choose....12-volt, 6-volt, or
2-volt.....it is the battery's reputation (and longevity) that is most
important......you can get nice 12-volt batteries that will out-perform some crappy 6-volts...and vice versa...)
b) If you do choose 6-volts.....parallel three pairs of series connected
6-volt batteries in the aft battery box....and if desired, parallel one
additional pair of series connected 6-volt batteries in the forward battery
box....
c) If you choose 2-volt cells, make SURE you can fit them before ordering
them, and they really only go together one way.....parallel two groups of
series-connected 2-volt cells in the aft battery box, and if desired,
parallel another group of series-connected 2-volt cells in the forward
battery box.....

D) IMPORTANT.....
You'll find that connecting your house battery output to the boat, is best
done with the Neg terminal of the first battery in parallel, and the Pos
terminal of the last battery in parallel......
And, this goes for all charging sources as well.....Alternator, Charger,
Solar, Wind, Water, etc....



6) Further info on deep-cycle battery positive plate thickness...
(from some battery engineering websites...)

[ Plate thickness (of the Positive plate) matters because of a factor called "positive grid corrosion". This ranks among the top 3 reasons for battery failure. The positive (+) plate is what gets eaten away gradually over time, so eventually there is nothing left - it all falls to the bottom as sediment. Thicker plates are directly related to longer life, so other things being equal, the battery with the thickest plates will last the longest. The negative plate in batteries expands somewhat during discharge, which is why nearly all batteries have separators, such as glass mat or paper, that can be compressed.
Automotive batteries typically have plates about .040" (4/100") thick, while forklift batteries may have plates more than 1/4" (.265" for example in larger Rolls-Surrette) thick - almost 7 times as thick as auto batteries.
The typical golf cart will have plates that are around .07 to .11" thick.
The Concorde AGM's are .115", The Rolls-Surrette L-16 type (CH460) is .150", and the US Battery and Trojan L-16 types are .090". The Crown L-16HC size has .22" thick plates. While plate thickness is not the only factor in how many deep cycles a battery can take before it dies, it is the most important one.

Most industrial (fork lift) deep-cycle batteries use Lead-Antimony plates rather than the Lead-Calcium used in AGM or gelled deep-cycle batteries and in automotive starting batteries. The Antimony increases plate life and strength, but increases gassing and water loss. This is why most industrial batteries have to be checked often for water level if you do not have Hydrocaps.]


I do hope this helps....

Don, Here are the links....
Battery

http://www.rollsbattery.com/pdf/12EHG375P.pdf


One last tidbit.....
Add as much solar as you can fit and afford, and you'll never regret it.....no matter what batteries, no matter how large/small your battery bank.....add as much solar capacity as you can fit / afford!!!



Don, aren't you glad I gave you the short answer first...


Fair winds..

John
s/v Annie Laurie

[ka4wja]

Originally Posted by Don Lucas

- the boat is on a mooring and not plugged in
- mostly is a weekend boat
- the battery came with 2 4D house batteries, either or both can be selected to the main DC panel or to the inverter (can use 1 for the DC and the other for the inverter if you want)

Don,
Now that I see more details, I can add without hesitation 2 important pieces of advice, both of which I gave earlier, but might be missed in the mass of other crap I wrote
1) Add solar!!!!
2) Fix/redesign your electrical system (at the least, use both 4D's in one bank, and add solar...)

Oh, and if I forgot to mention it.....
Add solar!!!!

Weekenders stuck on a mooring are fantastic canidates for solar.....even in higher latitudes......
The money you spend on even a small/modest sized solar panel and MPPT controller will pay fo itself in battery life span gained.....not to mention no worries about on-board electrical power....


John
s/v Annie Laurie

[hellosailor]

Rolls batteries will be a waste of money--unless you have a proper charging and maintenance system for them. Treat them right and you may get ten years form them. Treat them wrong, and you can trash them just as quickly as anything else.

Of course since AGMs are sealed, you can also trash them VERY quickly by overheating them and boiling of electrolyte, which can't be replaced.

What's best all depends on how you're going to use and treat them.

[sailorboy1]

Well I guess this all confirmed what I really knew from the start, AGMs aren't a good choice.

And since the Rolls questions became so mixed I think I'll pass on those.

So it's back to a wet cell 4D or maybe a change to 6V batteries made up to replace the 4Ds.

Far as my charging system. It's fine for what I'm currently doing. Only current problem is I believe a bad isolator and can operate around that till I get around to it.

[twistedtree]

I've got Rolls batteries in an off-grid house. Before the rolls I had Trojans. Doing it again, I'd go back to Trojans. I just don't think the Rolls are worth it, plus they are very difficult to get fully charged, requiring higher charge voltages and longer absorption times than other lead-acid batteries. Long absorption times are the enemy of a boater unless you regularly go on shore power.

Yes, you will probably replace the Trojans sooner than the Rolls, but they are much less expensive and I think are a better value overall.

By the way, most boat usage of batteries doesn't bring them back to full charge as regularly as the batteries would like, and all lead-acid batteries, whether they are flooded, AGM, or Gel, will sulphate, lose capacity, and ultimately fail. My philosophy is to buy 'em cheap, run 'em hard, and plan on replacing them.