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26-03-2014, 14:39
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#46
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Moderator
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Solent, England
Boat: Moody 31
Posts: 18,427
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Re: Replacing batteries
Thanks, I was hoping someone would give an example of how much they cost.
Pete
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26-03-2014, 14:52
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#47
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Moderator Emeritus
Join Date: Oct 2013
Location: Jacksonville/ out cruising
Boat: Island Packet 38
Posts: 31,351
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Re: Replacing batteries
As far as allowing acid to get into your bilge, I believe if acid comes into contact with saltwater one result is chlorine gas, which of course can kill.
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26-03-2014, 14:53
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#48
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Registered User
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: Caribbean live aboard
Boat: Camper & Nicholson58 Ketch - ROXY Traverse City, Michigan No.668283
Posts: 6,356
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Re: Replacing batteries
Quote:
Originally Posted by sailorboy1
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Our boat arrived from the PO with all batteries ruptured and the battery boxes eaten clear through including the mahogany paneling. I rebuilt with epoxy & glass and replaced the batteries with AGM Lifeline. Happy with them so far. We have made changes to electrical and electronic stuff to minimize the power footprint. All new instruments selected with power use as part of the consideration, all LED lights, broadband radar. All instruments are stand-alone so we only power what is needed. Alternators have charge controllers. Solar will be installed this spring if it ever arrives.
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26-03-2014, 14:53
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#49
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CLOD
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: being planted in Jacksonville Fl
Boat: none
Posts: 20,364
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Re: Replacing batteries
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pete7
Thanks, I was hoping someone would give an example of how much they cost.
Pete
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The real question is how they cost as a system as you probably need to upgrade your complete system.
__________________
Don't ask a bunch of unknown forum people if it is OK to do something on YOUR boat. It is your boat, do what you want!
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26-03-2014, 15:25
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#50
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Registered User
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: Poland, EU
Boat: crew on Bavaria 38 Cruiser
Posts: 654
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Re: Replacing batteries
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pete7
Thanks, I was hoping someone would give an example of how much they cost.
Pete
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Ah, OK.
So, to replace a 12V 110Ah, I would do the following math:
110Ah * 30% = 33Ah useable capacity (this can be argued some, but when Lead is operated within 50%-80% soc this is the case).
To replace with tech which has 20%-95% range:
33Ah / 75% = 44Ah nominal capacity.
There is no 44Ah nominal LiFePO4 cell, but there are 40Ah and 60Ah. Let us see both cases.
In each case we will need four LiFePO4 cells connected in series to have voltage equivalent of a 12V Lead battery.
Pricing a single 40Ah LiFePO4 cell:
EV-Power | CALB (40Ah-400Ah) -> $60
Winston Battery : Winston Battery 40Ah LiFePO4 lithium battery -> $44
average: $52
Pricing a single 60Ah LiFePO4 cell:
EV-Power | CALB (40Ah-400Ah) -> $90
Winston Battery : Winston Battery 60Ah LiFePO4 lithium battery -> $66
average: $78
Result:
replacement using 40Ah cells costs: $208
replacement using 60Ah cells costs: $312
Plus a one time investment in some monitoring and protection circuits. Whether charge sources need to be replaced or only adjusted depends on what you have.
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26-03-2014, 15:33
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#51
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Registered User
Join Date: Oct 2013
Location: Whangaroa, New Zealand
Posts: 266
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Not bad!
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26-03-2014, 15:37
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#52
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Marine Service Provider
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Maine
Boat: CS-36T - Cupecoy
Posts: 3,197
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Re: Replacing batteries
Quote:
Originally Posted by mrm
Ah, OK.
So, to replace a 12V 110Ah, I would do the following math:
110Ah * 30% = 33Ah useable capacity (this can be argued some, but when Lead is operated within 50%-80% soc this is the case).
To replace with tech which has 20%-95% range:
33Ah / 75% = 44Ah nominal capacity.
There is no 44Ah nominal LiFePO4 cell, but there are 40Ah and 60Ah. Let us see both cases.
In each case we will need four LiFePO4 cells connected in series to have an equivalent of a 12V Lead battery.
Pricing a single 40Ah LiFePO4 cell:
EV-Power | CALB (40Ah-400Ah) -> $60
Winston Battery : Winston Battery 40Ah LiFePO4 lithium battery -> $44
average: $52
Pricing a single 60Ah LiFePO4 cell:
EV-Power | CALB (40Ah-400Ah) -> $90
Winston Battery : Winston Battery 60Ah LiFePO4 lithium battery -> $66
average: $78
Result:
40Ah replacement cost: $208
60Ah replacement cost: $312
Plus a one time investment in some monitoring and protection circuits. Whether charge sources need to be replaced depends on what you have.
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You would then do the same for the expected cycle life. I have a bank of Lifeline's on my test bench right now that have barely done 130 cycles and they are testing at 72% of new Ah capacity under a controlled 20 hour capacity test..
My LiFePO4 bank has been repeatedly cycled to 80% DOD for well over a year, plus 7 full discharge capacity tests to 0%, and it is now nearing 300 cycles with zero change in capacity. The internal resistance actually went down slightly after the first 50 cycles.....
Up front costs for Li is considerably more expensive than FLA and only marginally more than a premium AGM or GEL but on a $$ to cycles and $$ to lifetime watt hours or $$ to lifetime Ah's lead is left in the dust and Li wins the overall cost game.....
Cheap flooded lead is still a great value but Li is making GEL and AGM quite a poor value...
If you ask me the no-sulfation thing and never needing to get back to 100% SOC to prevent sulfation is one the biggest and most under considered benefits to Li...
When I leave the boat, and the batts happen to be at at 35% SOC, I don't care.....
Still for the average boater, FLA is a great value...
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27-03-2014, 10:33
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#53
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Registered User
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: Back home
Boat: Amel Euros 41
Posts: 214
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Maine Sail
You would then do the same for the expected cycle life. I have a bank of Lifeline's on my test bench right now that have barely done 130 cycles and they are testing at 72% of new Ah capacity under a controlled 20 hour capacity test..
My LiFePO4 bank has been repeatedly cycled to 80% DOD for well over a year, plus 7 full discharge capacity tests to 0%, and it is now nearing 300 cycles with zero change in capacity. The internal resistance actually went down slightly after the first 50 cycles.....
Up front costs for Li is considerably more expensive than FLA and only marginally more than a premium AGM or GEL but on a $$ to cycles and $$ to lifetime watt hours or $$ to lifetime Ah's lead is left in the dust and Li wins the overall cost game.....
Cheap flooded lead is still a great value but Li is making GEL and AGM quite a poor value...
If you ask me the no-sulfation thing and never needing to get back to 100% SOC to prevent sulfation is one the biggest and most under considered benefits to Li...
When I leave the boat, and the batts happen to be at at 35% SOC, I don't care.....
Still for the average boater, FLA is a great value...
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Listen to a sensible man.
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27-03-2014, 10:57
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#54
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Registered User
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Wash DC
Boat: PETERSON 44
Posts: 3,165
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Re: Replacing batteries
For us that are on year 7 with AGM. Don't feel bad. I have had great use from my freedom batts. They are charged properly and have solar topping them. I never worried about water level and they are still going strong. When I replace them I will go straight to LI batts. It was a good investment 7 years ago for those of us that charge them properly.if I were to go back in time I would do exactly what I did. Bought Agm lifeline batts.sitting here now on the same batts and they are fine no issue. I use the boat every weekend plus and cruise for 6 weeks a year. Not quite liveaboard .The boat when not sailed is on a mooring 9 months and dockside the remaining time.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
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27-03-2014, 11:14
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#55
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Registered User
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: On board in Leros, Greece
Boat: Hunter Legend 420 Passage
Posts: 863
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Re: Replacing batteries
Quote:
Originally Posted by Maine Sail
....Cheap flooded lead is still a great value but Li is making GEL and AGM quite a poor value......
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I don't want to make this another LiFEPO4 thread - I haven't even dared to look at the mega Li thread yet - but one simple question.
If Li is so ******* good why haven't the battery manufacturers like Trojan/Lifeline etc.. produced some?
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27-03-2014, 11:30
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#56
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Registered User
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: Back home
Boat: Amel Euros 41
Posts: 214
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sailinglegend
I don't want to make this another LiFEPO4 thread - I haven't even dared to look at the mega Li thread yet - but one simple question.
If Li is so ******* good why haven't the battery manufacturers like Trojan/Lifeline etc.. produced some?
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They are milking their ageing products.
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27-03-2014, 11:36
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#57
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Marine Service Provider
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Maine
Boat: CS-36T - Cupecoy
Posts: 3,197
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Re: Replacing batteries
Quote:
Originally Posted by sailinglegend
I don't want to make this another LiFEPO4 thread - I haven't even dared to look at the mega Li thread yet - but one simple question.
If Li is so ******* good why haven't the battery manufacturers like Trojan/Lifeline etc.. produced some?
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Many are working on it. EnerSys (Odyssey, Hawker, etc..) bought a LiFeP04 company in 2012, Concord/Lifeline (LINK) is working on it and so is East Penn. Concord Battery technology eventually trickles into the Lifeline brand. Trojan keeps quiet on what they do. If it takes them as long as it took to add GEL and AGM to their product line we will be onto super capacitors by then...
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27-03-2014, 11:49
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#58
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Registered User
Join Date: Feb 2008
Boat: 2017 Leopard 40
Posts: 2,662
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Re: Replacing batteries
OK sorry for the thread drift or hijack, but this question is on-topic. I'm also considering which batteries to get next. What would you do? The situation:
Present situation is 3 banks (start, house, bow), joined by voltage sensing relays (one each Yandina battery combiners connect the house bank to the start, and house bank to the bow bank). Alternator has internal regulation and is connected to the GRP 24 FLA start battery. Solar panels with Morningstar Sunsaver MPPT controller are connected to the house bank consisting of 3x GRP24 FLA. Bow bank is one GRP24 FLA.
(Going forward I'm thinking of leaving the combiner switch so that the bow is joined full-time to the house).
I would want to keep existing start battery and replace house/bow with 4 Group 24 batteries (or something else that fits that space of 3+1 GRP24).
Choices:
1) replace with FLA from Costco for about $300
2) Replace with AGM for about $600-900
3) Replace with lower capacity LI for $1,000-$2,000 + unknown charging components to add
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27-03-2014, 11:50
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#59
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Registered User
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Wash DC
Boat: PETERSON 44
Posts: 3,165
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Re: Replacing batteries
Quote:
Originally Posted by ullar
They are milking their ageing products.
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I don't think so. I think that's a very slanted statement. I have as said before had good fortune with lifeline. Fun as it is to create a slant. No one is providing easy plug and play next gen batts. It's still early. Even mainsail says it's not for the novice installer. If your putting batts on get the charge stuff right.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
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27-03-2014, 11:59
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#60
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Registered User
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: Back home
Boat: Amel Euros 41
Posts: 214
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SailFastTri
OK sorry for the thread drift or hijack, but this question is on-topic. I'm also considering which batteries to get next. What would you do? The situation:
Present situation is 3 banks (start, house, bow), joined by voltage sensing relays (one each Yandina battery combiners connect the house bank to the start, and house bank to the bow bank). Alternator has internal regulation and is connected to the GRP 24 FLA start battery. Solar panels with Morningstar Sunsaver MPPT controller are connected to the house bank consisting of 3x GRP24 FLA. Bow bank is one GRP24 FLA.
(Going forward I'm thinking of leaving the combiner switch so that the bow is joined full-time to the house).
I would want to keep existing start battery and replace house/bow with 4 Group 24 batteries (or something else that fits that space of 3+1 GRP24).
Choices:
1) replace with FLA from Costco for about $300
2) Replace with AGM for about $600-900
3) Replace with lower capacity LI for $1,000-$2,000 + unknown charging components to add
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Just one point to keep in mind. If you like to charge your batteries with one charger keep them one type.
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