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Old 26-03-2014, 15:39   #46
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Re: Replacing batteries

Thanks, I was hoping someone would give an example of how much they cost.

Pete
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Old 26-03-2014, 15:52   #47
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Re: Replacing batteries

As far as allowing acid to get into your bilge, I believe if acid comes into contact with saltwater one result is chlorine gas, which of course can kill.
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Old 26-03-2014, 15:53   #48
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Re: Replacing batteries

Quote:
Originally Posted by sailorboy1 View Post
Have you heard of battery boxes?
Our boat arrived from the PO with all batteries ruptured and the battery boxes eaten clear through including the mahogany paneling. I rebuilt with epoxy & glass and replaced the batteries with AGM Lifeline. Happy with them so far. We have made changes to electrical and electronic stuff to minimize the power footprint. All new instruments selected with power use as part of the consideration, all LED lights, broadband radar. All instruments are stand-alone so we only power what is needed. Alternators have charge controllers. Solar will be installed this spring if it ever arrives.
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Old 26-03-2014, 15:53   #49
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Re: Replacing batteries

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Originally Posted by Pete7 View Post
Thanks, I was hoping someone would give an example of how much they cost.

Pete

The real question is how they cost as a system as you probably need to upgrade your complete system.
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Old 26-03-2014, 16:25   #50
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Re: Replacing batteries

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Originally Posted by Pete7 View Post
Thanks, I was hoping someone would give an example of how much they cost.

Pete
Ah, OK.

So, to replace a 12V 110Ah, I would do the following math:

110Ah * 30% = 33Ah useable capacity (this can be argued some, but when Lead is operated within 50%-80% soc this is the case).

To replace with tech which has 20%-95% range:

33Ah / 75% = 44Ah nominal capacity.

There is no 44Ah nominal LiFePO4 cell, but there are 40Ah and 60Ah. Let us see both cases.

In each case we will need four LiFePO4 cells connected in series to have voltage equivalent of a 12V Lead battery.

Pricing a single 40Ah LiFePO4 cell:
EV-Power | CALB (40Ah-400Ah) -> $60
Winston Battery : Winston Battery 40Ah LiFePO4 lithium battery -> $44
average: $52

Pricing a single 60Ah LiFePO4 cell:
EV-Power | CALB (40Ah-400Ah) -> $90
Winston Battery : Winston Battery 60Ah LiFePO4 lithium battery -> $66
average: $78


Result:

replacement using 40Ah cells costs: $208
replacement using 60Ah cells costs: $312


Plus a one time investment in some monitoring and protection circuits. Whether charge sources need to be replaced or only adjusted depends on what you have.
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Old 26-03-2014, 16:33   #51
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Not bad!
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Old 26-03-2014, 16:37   #52
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Re: Replacing batteries

Quote:
Originally Posted by mrm View Post
Ah, OK.

So, to replace a 12V 110Ah, I would do the following math:

110Ah * 30% = 33Ah useable capacity (this can be argued some, but when Lead is operated within 50%-80% soc this is the case).

To replace with tech which has 20%-95% range:

33Ah / 75% = 44Ah nominal capacity.

There is no 44Ah nominal LiFePO4 cell, but there are 40Ah and 60Ah. Let us see both cases.

In each case we will need four LiFePO4 cells connected in series to have an equivalent of a 12V Lead battery.

Pricing a single 40Ah LiFePO4 cell:
EV-Power | CALB (40Ah-400Ah) -> $60
Winston Battery : Winston Battery 40Ah LiFePO4 lithium battery -> $44
average: $52

Pricing a single 60Ah LiFePO4 cell:
EV-Power | CALB (40Ah-400Ah) -> $90
Winston Battery : Winston Battery 60Ah LiFePO4 lithium battery -> $66
average: $78


Result:

40Ah replacement cost: $208
60Ah replacement cost: $312


Plus a one time investment in some monitoring and protection circuits. Whether charge sources need to be replaced depends on what you have.
You would then do the same for the expected cycle life. I have a bank of Lifeline's on my test bench right now that have barely done 130 cycles and they are testing at 72% of new Ah capacity under a controlled 20 hour capacity test..

My LiFePO4 bank has been repeatedly cycled to 80% DOD for well over a year, plus 7 full discharge capacity tests to 0%, and it is now nearing 300 cycles with zero change in capacity. The internal resistance actually went down slightly after the first 50 cycles.....

Up front costs for Li is considerably more expensive than FLA and only marginally more than a premium AGM or GEL but on a $$ to cycles and $$ to lifetime watt hours or $$ to lifetime Ah's lead is left in the dust and Li wins the overall cost game.....

Cheap flooded lead is still a great value but Li is making GEL and AGM quite a poor value...

If you ask me the no-sulfation thing and never needing to get back to 100% SOC to prevent sulfation is one the biggest and most under considered benefits to Li...

When I leave the boat, and the batts happen to be at at 35% SOC, I don't care.....

Still for the average boater, FLA is a great value...
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Old 27-03-2014, 11:33   #53
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Originally Posted by Maine Sail View Post

You would then do the same for the expected cycle life. I have a bank of Lifeline's on my test bench right now that have barely done 130 cycles and they are testing at 72% of new Ah capacity under a controlled 20 hour capacity test..

My LiFePO4 bank has been repeatedly cycled to 80% DOD for well over a year, plus 7 full discharge capacity tests to 0%, and it is now nearing 300 cycles with zero change in capacity. The internal resistance actually went down slightly after the first 50 cycles.....

Up front costs for Li is considerably more expensive than FLA and only marginally more than a premium AGM or GEL but on a $$ to cycles and $$ to lifetime watt hours or $$ to lifetime Ah's lead is left in the dust and Li wins the overall cost game.....

Cheap flooded lead is still a great value but Li is making GEL and AGM quite a poor value...

If you ask me the no-sulfation thing and never needing to get back to 100% SOC to prevent sulfation is one the biggest and most under considered benefits to Li...

When I leave the boat, and the batts happen to be at at 35% SOC, I don't care.....

Still for the average boater, FLA is a great value...
Listen to a sensible man.
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Old 27-03-2014, 11:57   #54
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Re: Replacing batteries

For us that are on year 7 with AGM. Don't feel bad. I have had great use from my freedom batts. They are charged properly and have solar topping them. I never worried about water level and they are still going strong. When I replace them I will go straight to LI batts. It was a good investment 7 years ago for those of us that charge them properly.if I were to go back in time I would do exactly what I did. Bought Agm lifeline batts.sitting here now on the same batts and they are fine no issue. I use the boat every weekend plus and cruise for 6 weeks a year. Not quite liveaboard .The boat when not sailed is on a mooring 9 months and dockside the remaining time.



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Old 27-03-2014, 12:14   #55
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Re: Replacing batteries

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Originally Posted by Maine Sail View Post
....Cheap flooded lead is still a great value but Li is making GEL and AGM quite a poor value......
I don't want to make this another LiFEPO4 thread - I haven't even dared to look at the mega Li thread yet - but one simple question.

If Li is so ******* good why haven't the battery manufacturers like Trojan/Lifeline etc.. produced some?
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Old 27-03-2014, 12:30   #56
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I don't want to make this another LiFEPO4 thread - I haven't even dared to look at the mega Li thread yet - but one simple question.

If Li is so ******* good why haven't the battery manufacturers like Trojan/Lifeline etc.. produced some?
They are milking their ageing products.
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Old 27-03-2014, 12:36   #57
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Re: Replacing batteries

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Originally Posted by sailinglegend View Post
I don't want to make this another LiFEPO4 thread - I haven't even dared to look at the mega Li thread yet - but one simple question.

If Li is so ******* good why haven't the battery manufacturers like Trojan/Lifeline etc.. produced some?
Many are working on it. EnerSys (Odyssey, Hawker, etc..) bought a LiFeP04 company in 2012, Concord/Lifeline (LINK) is working on it and so is East Penn. Concord Battery technology eventually trickles into the Lifeline brand. Trojan keeps quiet on what they do. If it takes them as long as it took to add GEL and AGM to their product line we will be onto super capacitors by then...
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Old 27-03-2014, 12:49   #58
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Re: Replacing batteries

OK sorry for the thread drift or hijack, but this question is on-topic. I'm also considering which batteries to get next. What would you do? The situation:

Present situation is 3 banks (start, house, bow), joined by voltage sensing relays (one each Yandina battery combiners connect the house bank to the start, and house bank to the bow bank). Alternator has internal regulation and is connected to the GRP 24 FLA start battery. Solar panels with Morningstar Sunsaver MPPT controller are connected to the house bank consisting of 3x GRP24 FLA. Bow bank is one GRP24 FLA.
(Going forward I'm thinking of leaving the combiner switch so that the bow is joined full-time to the house).

I would want to keep existing start battery and replace house/bow with 4 Group 24 batteries (or something else that fits that space of 3+1 GRP24).

Choices:
1) replace with FLA from Costco for about $300
2) Replace with AGM for about $600-900
3) Replace with lower capacity LI for $1,000-$2,000 + unknown charging components to add
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Old 27-03-2014, 12:50   #59
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Re: Replacing batteries

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They are milking their ageing products.

I don't think so. I think that's a very slanted statement. I have as said before had good fortune with lifeline. Fun as it is to create a slant. No one is providing easy plug and play next gen batts. It's still early. Even mainsail says it's not for the novice installer. If your putting batts on get the charge stuff right.


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Old 27-03-2014, 12:59   #60
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Originally Posted by SailFastTri View Post
OK sorry for the thread drift or hijack, but this question is on-topic. I'm also considering which batteries to get next. What would you do? The situation:

Present situation is 3 banks (start, house, bow), joined by voltage sensing relays (one each Yandina battery combiners connect the house bank to the start, and house bank to the bow bank). Alternator has internal regulation and is connected to the GRP 24 FLA start battery. Solar panels with Morningstar Sunsaver MPPT controller are connected to the house bank consisting of 3x GRP24 FLA. Bow bank is one GRP24 FLA.
(Going forward I'm thinking of leaving the combiner switch so that the bow is joined full-time to the house).

I would want to keep existing start battery and replace house/bow with 4 Group 24 batteries (or something else that fits that space of 3+1 GRP24).

Choices:
1) replace with FLA from Costco for about $300
2) Replace with AGM for about $600-900
3) Replace with lower capacity LI for $1,000-$2,000 + unknown charging components to add
Just one point to keep in mind. If you like to charge your batteries with one charger keep them one type.
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