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19-02-2018, 14:34
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#16
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Registered User
Join Date: Feb 2017
Location: Panama, Central America
Boat: CT 49, 1989
Posts: 969
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Re: Refrigeration- 50-80% less daily power possible?
Good one!
Most generous of you guys. Count me in too.
Wahoo, could be 3 cases to one some lucky punter.
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19-02-2018, 17:38
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#17
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֍֎֍֎֍֎֍֎֍֎
Join Date: Apr 2006
Posts: 15,136
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Re: Refrigeration- 50-80% less daily power possible?
My "roundabout reasoning" on Solakool isn't roundabout at all.
Very simply, THEY ARE BEING DECEPTIVE.
They proudly show a patent--but no one (except perhaps an astute Aussie) would know it is an unenforceable preliminary patent, worth the price of a postage stamp for filing for it. That's deceptive. They sent away boxtops for a cereal prize, no more no less. Not yet.
They say you can SAVE UP TO 80% and under US law, that is the specific way that a company says "You may not save anything, this may not be on sale or marked down in price at all, the performance may not increase at all...yadayada". Again, DECEPTIVE. Common marketing--but deceptive.
If one company says "25% OFF" and the second says "Buy one get one 50% OFF" people think they are getting twice the bargain and they fall for the second every time. Deceptive.
So when I see a technology company making absolutely no substantive claims and only deceptive ones? Yeah, that's not roundabout reasoning, that's a red flag going up.
Two years ago a major burger chain did some market tests. They were going to introduce a 1/3 pound burger priced lower than the competitor's 1/4 pound burger. And in every focus group, people said they had a great burger, a better burger. But, since they all knew 4 was bigger than 3, the 1/4 pound burger must be bigger than the 1/3 pound burger and a better bargain!
Yes, that's the public that Solakool is marketing to. And that's the kind of logic they are using to sell their product. Maybe the product is great and they just don't know how to market it. And maybe the winning lottery ticket was dropped in the street and is laying just outside my door. I'd better go check.
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19-02-2018, 17:42
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#18
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Registered User
Join Date: Jul 2012
Location: North East USA
Boat: 1975 Tartan 41'
Posts: 1,044
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Re: Refrigeration- 50-80% less daily power possible?
I have attached the T-S diagram for a refrigeration cycle and added what I believe the solar panel does to it. I did not examine the patent and didn't spend much time on their web page beyond 'how it works'. But as I see it, a solar panel is just a heat exchanger adding heat at a constant volume (you don't change pressure in a heat exchanger). They are putting this right before the condenser, a heat exchanger removing heat at constant volume. All the solar panel does is add heat that the condenser must then remove. You can see the point 2b I added to the diagram on the right. The refrigerant goes up to 2b, then right back down to point 2 then on to point 3 when it goes into the condenser. I see no advantage whatsoever in adding this solar panel to a standard refrigeration cycle... Now a propane refrigeration system using the chemical interaction between Ammonia and Hydrogen and no compressor is a different animal, but not what they are talking about.
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19-02-2018, 19:07
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#19
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Registered User
Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: Windsor ON. Canada
Boat: macgregor 26
Posts: 39
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Re: Refrigeration- 50-80% less daily power possible?
If it is an absorption system...then they tend to be sensitive to axial orientation and perhaps a poor choice for sailing craft.
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19-02-2018, 21:15
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#20
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Registered User
Join Date: Apr 2009
Posts: 66
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Re: Refrigeration- 50-80% less daily power possible?
Sounds to me like it's ejector refrigeration teamed up with a normal heat pump.
I was curious if there was any truth to their claims, so I spent a few minutes googling it and found loads of interesting info.
In a hybrid system the 'solar panel' is a thermally driven compressor (and more complex than their square box suggests!). It's very inefficient, but it's free energy and will reduce the load on the main compressor. The underlying technology was invented in the 1800s and used for cooling until replaced by more efficient systems.
So what matters is if it can be built and installed cheap enough, and lower the ongoing costs of running the aircon.
Don't get me wrong, that website and diagrams are terrible and the efficiency claims are no doubt junk. And maybe this particular system is just a scam, but the technology exists to have a hybrid aircon that harvests solar thermal energy to reduce electricity use.
Some interesting 'light' reading -
https://docs.lib.purdue.edu/cgi/view...&context=iracc
https://cecs.anu.edu.au/research/res...using-ejectors
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19-02-2018, 23:06
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#21
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Registered User
Join Date: Feb 2017
Location: Panama, Central America
Boat: CT 49, 1989
Posts: 969
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Re: Refrigeration- 50-80% less daily power possible?
Quote:
Originally Posted by hellosailor
My "roundabout reasoning" on Solakool isn't roundabout at all.
Very simply, THEY ARE BEING DECEPTIVE.
They proudly show a patent--but no one (except perhaps an astute Aussie) would know it is an unenforceable preliminary patent, worth the price of a postage stamp for filing for it. That's deceptive. They sent away boxtops for a cereal prize, no more no less. Not yet.
They say you can SAVE UP TO 80% and under US law, that is the specific way that a company says "You may not save anything, this may not be on sale or marked down in price at all, the performance may not increase at all...yadayada". Again, DECEPTIVE. Common marketing--but deceptive.
If one company says "25% OFF" and the second says "Buy one get one 50% OFF" people think they are getting twice the bargain and they fall for the second every time. Deceptive.
So when I see a technology company making absolutely no substantive claims and only deceptive ones? Yeah, that's not roundabout reasoning, that's a red flag going up.
Two years ago a major burger chain did some market tests. They were going to introduce a 1/3 pound burger priced lower than the competitor's 1/4 pound burger. And in every focus group, people said they had a great burger, a better burger. But, since they all knew 4 was bigger than 3, the 1/4 pound burger must be bigger than the 1/3 pound burger and a better bargain!
Yes, that's the public that Solakool is marketing to. And that's the kind of logic they are using to sell their product. Maybe the product is great and they just don't know how to market it. And maybe the winning lottery ticket was dropped in the street and is laying just outside my door. I'd better go check.
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No arguments here. Especially seeing you emphasis DECEPTIVE in capitals. Lets face it the one yelling loudest in a discussion has to be correct.
This Aussie is obviously not as astute as you. I get it now, thanks. If I didn't know better I would have taken Astute Aussie as a not so veiled, name calling the other guy an idiot slur argument. I'm sure that's not how you meant it.
Good reasoning on how this cant work with your- their lack of credibility making false Intellectual Property law claims and misleading Advertising.
It looks like you have a strong need to be right. I concede you are RIGHT.
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20-02-2018, 00:07
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#22
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Registered User
Join Date: Jul 2015
Location: San Rafael, Ca.
Boat: Gaff rigged Ketch[Spray]37' on deck
Posts: 602
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Re: Refrigeration- 50-80% less daily power possible?
There was a company called "tropic cool", that used CO2 for a gas, went out of business, asthe system cost to much to manufacture, too bad, the two guys invested all thiere $ in the system, i have one, works well.
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20-02-2018, 03:21
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#23
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Registered User
Join Date: Feb 2017
Location: Panama, Central America
Boat: CT 49, 1989
Posts: 969
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Re: Refrigeration- 50-80% less daily power possible?
Quote:
Originally Posted by handmer
Sounds to me like it's ejector refrigeration teamed up with a normal heat pump.
I was curious if there was any truth to their claims, so I spent a few minutes googling it and found loads of interesting info.
In a hybrid system the 'solar panel' is a thermally driven compressor (and more complex than their square box suggests!). It's very inefficient, but it's free energy and will reduce the load on the main compressor. The underlying technology was invented in the 1800s and used for cooling until replaced by more efficient systems.
So what matters is if it can be built and installed cheap enough, and lower the ongoing costs of running the aircon.
Don't get me wrong, that website and diagrams are terrible and the efficiency claims are no doubt junk. And maybe this particular system is just a scam, but the technology exists to have a hybrid aircon that harvests solar thermal energy to reduce electricity use.
Some interesting 'light' reading -
https://docs.lib.purdue.edu/cgi/view...&context=iracc
https://cecs.anu.edu.au/research/res...using-ejectors
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Thanks, although I couldn't seem to get your links to work.
OK, so I get that some of you guys aren’t keen on those Australian shysters’.
No doubt more snake oil selling scammers, this one listing multiple companies and thermal cooling technologies in US, Australia (again), Singapore etc -https://www.nature.com/news/how-heat-from-the-sun-can-keep-us-all-cool-1.21390
More scams- Ecolinegroup.com - The Next Generation of Air Conditioners
I don’t think our wine money is at risk yet.
Absorption chillers, like the RV propane fridges, or shopping mall cooling plants etc are another form of Thermal chilling, as is ejector jets (steam etc) but not exactly the type I was asking about. More a solar thermally assisted electrically driven mechanical compressor system.
Seeing it was mentioned, getting back to NASAs absorbtion chiller toxic Ammonia leak mentioned previously. Yes ammonia is quite toxic. Many modern Absorption chillers are now using Salt desiccants like LiBr or CaCl, for this reason.
Yes also agreed that absorption chillers dont like to be tilted, so not suitable on a boat, especially a mono.
Also most of these companies are doing air conditioning. I was thinking if it was workable it would be more valuable as boat refrigeration, which is more of a necessity.
Dougtiff- Good to hear you are pleased with your "tropic cool" system. Can you tell us a little more about it please? Good to hear from someone that has some first hand knowledge of this stuff. Most of us don’t as it’s not common.
Thanks.
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20-02-2018, 09:43
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#24
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Registered User
Join Date: Feb 2017
Location: Panama, Central America
Boat: CT 49, 1989
Posts: 969
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Re: Refrigeration- 50-80% less daily power possible?
OK here’s another ‘suspect?’ company. These guys are US based, Salinas and San Luis CA. Doing as far as I can tell, the same sort of thing. Their website is more polished, with video’s etc.
These guys must be ‘Honest’ because it says on their site, in color even. But they are pretty slim on technical details. Must be a scam too eh? Solar Assisted Air Conditioner - Heating and Air San Luis Obispo County
Their claims are a little less ‘ludicrous’, only claiming a with a little SEER energy saving chart citing a 67-69% monthly savings. These guys don’t even suggest it is ‘up to’ this number.
If anyone on here is located in that area and interested to go and see this is real. I would love to hear what your take on this stuff is.
Cheers.
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20-02-2018, 10:35
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#25
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Registered User
Join Date: Nov 2012
Location: La Honda, California
Boat: Beneteau Oceanis 50
Posts: 364
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Re: Refrigeration- 50-80% less daily power possible?
It would seem simpler to put several commercially available solar panels on a roof with an inverter, and then save electricity and have a "More efficient" system. At least you would know it works.
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20-02-2018, 11:00
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#26
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Registered User
Join Date: Feb 2017
Location: Panama, Central America
Boat: CT 49, 1989
Posts: 969
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Re: Refrigeration- 50-80% less daily power possible?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pitchondesign
It would seem simpler to put several commercially available solar panels on a roof with an inverter, and then save electricity and have a "More efficient" system. At least you would know it works.
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Yes sure. Maybe it would be better, maybe this stuff is better for certain circumstances. I dont know. I open to the possibility either way.
Sounds like you have made your mind up about the possibility about this stuff. Your boat, your choice.
I'm curious why you are still looking at and commenting about it?
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20-02-2018, 11:05
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#27
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Registered User
Join Date: Feb 2015
Boat: Land bound, previously Morgan 462
Posts: 1,991
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Re: Refrigeration- 50-80% less daily power possible?
Any source of energy can theoretically be used to run a refrigeration compressor including pressure generated by sun power. But most are inefficient, impractical or both.
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20-02-2018, 11:26
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#28
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Registered User
Join Date: Feb 2017
Location: Panama, Central America
Boat: CT 49, 1989
Posts: 969
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Re: Refrigeration- 50-80% less daily power possible?
Yes agreed. With out figures or an example it's pretty hard to compare and quantify that statement. Although it generally sounds pretty right to me.
Solar and batteries are not very efficient either with solar panels currently around 20% at best.
Inefficient aside if the heat energy source is 'waste' or 'excess' like from an engine cooling system or sucked from the back of PV panels then after equipment set cost it's free.
I also agree that it's quite possible it's to much effort or expense for too small a gain. I dont know.
I know there are some that claim it is worth while. And many other that claim its definitely not. They cant both be right.
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20-02-2018, 13:30
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#29
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Registered User
Join Date: Apr 2009
Posts: 66
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Re: Refrigeration- 50-80% less daily power possible?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Q Xopa
Thanks, although I couldn't seem to get your links to work.
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A good resource to check if it is an issue on your end is IsUp.me - it will tell you if the issue is on your end or the websites end. Also try removing the s from https in the URL - sometimes if you have a browser issue it won't load the security certificate.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Q Xopa
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Both those appear to use the same technology, so I'd be hesitant to label them a scam (or a success) without independent testing. The study I linked seems to suggest it's quite a plausible way to reduce load on the electrically driven compressor.
As far as I can tell, they use a thermally powered ejector jet compressor to assists the electrically driven mechanical compressor.
From my research, it doesn't need the air-conditioner to use different working fluid to usual, and the system operates as normal when the thermally driven compressor is not assisting. And sure, the thermally driven compressor is very inefficient considering how much energy it uses for the work it does. But since the energy is free and otherwise wasted, if it is cheap enough to add to the system, then it could reduce running costs.
And I do think that the websites trying to sell these systems are mostly poorly put together, and the efficiency claims are worthless without independent testing.
But the underlying technology is quite interesting, and well worth researching before calling it a scam, or believing the claims.
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20-02-2018, 13:52
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#30
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Registered User
Join Date: Nov 2012
Location: La Honda, California
Boat: Beneteau Oceanis 50
Posts: 364
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Re: Refrigeration- 50-80% less daily power possible?
So.... how is it possible to put one of these on a boat?
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