Red and Green All-Around Lights

[psneeld]

If a vessel shows red over red...doesn't matter what's actually wrong...other vessels must comply and avoid. And ANYONE here that says it's absolutely right or wrong to show them while sleeping is just giving an opinion as there's not even a remote reference to it in the rules.

If there's a collision ...almost always BOTH vessels are found at fault for some reason or another....the reason???? NO COLLISIONS ARE ALLOWED UNDER ANY CIRCUMSTANCES in the eyes of a maritime court. So it doesn't matter as much what lights you were showing as that you were showing something and bright enough to be seen. When a collision occurs, usually the investigation and hearing centers around what each skipper DID to help prevent the collision (actions, corrections, planning, sound signals, shapes, lights, radio calls...etc..etc). So lights are only a small part of what they investigate.

Heck, most of the time I can't even pick out the Nav lights on a cruise ship.

And besides...if you show red over red who's gonna care if there's no collision???? the light police???? Most recreational boats aren't even stopped for improper lighting around here...it would be a full time operation for law enforcement in the summer..

[goboatingnow]

Originally Posted by jackdale

NUC

Rule 27

Also engine failure on a power-driven vessel.

Sleeping while under way is a a disabled vessel, although the skipper may have a disability.

A sleeping singlehander is Most definitely not NUC, no matter what good you might think displaying it. Nuc means the vessel is not responding to commands. Not that there's anyone there to issue those commands. Singlehanding breaks the COLREGS anyway, so displaying nUC while asleep just compounds it.

Dave

[jackdale]

Originally Posted by goboatingnow

A sleeping singlehander is Most definitely not NUC, no matter what good you might think displaying it. Nuc means the vessel is not responding to commands. Not that there's anyone there to issue those commands. Singlehanding breaks the COLREGS anyway, so displaying nUC while asleep just compounds it.

Dave

Dave _ I agrre with you.


I managed to omit a "not". I did correct myself in alater message as I could not edit the furst one.

Mae culpa.

[TheManWhoSpoke]

Perhaps the meaning here is that, by pretending to be NUC. One is applying the 'common-sense' clause and deviating from the rules, in the spirit of preventing collisions... But whatever anyone might say. sleeping skipper is not NUC in the legal sense, and you may find that kind spirited mariners will hail you to assess your siduation. Engine failure in a small craft is usually a distress siduation. Good luck trying to sleep .
Futhermore, if you are not in international waters, you may be subject to law enforcement.

I still think that being hove-to only during daylight, and hoisting the 'M' signal flag is the best way to indicate this condition - without all the NUC legal implications. Any thoughts?

[psneeld]

Originally Posted by goboatingnow

A sleeping singlehander is Most definitely not NUC, no matter what good you might think displaying it. Nuc means the vessel is not responding to commands. Not that there's anyone there to issue those commands. Singlehanding breaks the COLREGS anyway, so displaying nUC while asleep just compounds it.

Dave

I can see where a single hander sleeping or a ship where the crew is incapacitated meets this definition...these situations don't meet any other definition in the Nav Rules so showing red over red might just "be in the spirit" of the rules.

Show me where the rule says ". Nuc means the vessel is not responding to commands"

The term "vessel not under command" means a vessel which through some exceptional circumstance is unable to maneuver as required by these Rules and is therefore unable to keep out of the way of another vessel.

Plus they canged the name to Nav Rules a ways back....

[goboatingnow]

Originally Posted by psneeld

I can see where a single hander sleeping or a ship where the crew is incapacitated meets this definition...these situations don't meet any other definition in the Nav Rules

The term "vessel not under command" means a vessel which through some exceptional circumstance is unable to maneuver as required by these Rules and is therefore unable to keep out of the way of another vessel.

You are selectively applying the COLREGs.
The first proviso of the rules is that a lookout is provided at all times. Hence the concept of unattended vessels is not covered in the COLREGS.

Secondly for a singlehander sleeping can hardly be described as exceptional. In fact it's a normal part of ones activity

In a big ship standing orders may require the capitan to be awoken to issue certain orders. Should they be NUC of course not.

dave

[Unicorn Dreams]

I thought this was the RED OVER GREEN thread, not the red over red...

[TheManWhoSpoke]

Originally Posted by Unicorn Dreams

I thought this was the RED OVER GREEN thread, not the red over red...

Off topic discussion.
Redirect to here: http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/...tml#post756501

[psneeld]

Originally Posted by jrd22

I want to install red and green all around lights at the masthead (red over green) and can't find any ready made units. Does anyone else run this, and if so how did you do it. I'm having trouble even finding a green all around light. I may have to resort to using two 180 degree lights on opposite sides of a pole but would rather keep it simple with only two lights and two bulbs. I want to do this so that I can run the masthead lights and the deck nav lights at the same time for increased visibility.

Thanks for any help, John

I got carried away with people who thought they ACTUALLY know the NavRules...

Hey...a lot of commercial guys and fishing boats use warning lights found in regular electrical supply companies....not as yachtie but a lot cheaper if you are willing to backyard rig some 12V LED or regular bulb fittings in the bases. (you would also have to rig brackets to place them on your mast)

May be more work than what one poster linked to....

[TheManWhoSpoke]

Originally Posted by psneeld

I got carried away with people who thought they ACTUALLY know the NavRules...

Hey...a lot of commercial guys and fishing boats use warning lights found in regular electrical supply companies....not as yachtie but a lot cheaper if you are willing to backyard rig some 12V LED or regular bulb fittings in the bases. (you would also have to rig brackets to place them on your mast)

May be more work than what one poster linked to....

As to the original question of how to actually mount Red over Green, with the requisite 1m (3') separation. I have found lanterns hoisted on a halyard do the trick. No messing around with permanent cabling, easy to haul down and fix, and no dead weight aloft when you don't need them.

[psneeld]

Originally Posted by TheManWhoSpoke

As to the original question of how to actually mount Red over Green, with the requisite 1m (3') separation. I have found lanterns hoisted on a halyard do the trick. No messing around with permanent cabling, easy to haul down and fix, and no dead weight aloft when you don't need them.

as long as not obscured...good idea...
even if they were partially...big deal

[Jim Cate]

Originally Posted by cal40john

Excerpt From: Atlantic Maritime Academy


[FONT='times new roman', times, serif]How far does this pattern of thought go? In a 1984 court case (Granholm v. TFL Express), a single-handed yacht, Granholm, was run down from behind (see SSP, May 30, 2007, “Overtaking – A Meeting”) by the freighter TFL Express. The owner of the Granholm sued the Express for failing to maintain a proper look-out (Rule 5) and to give-way to the over-taken vessel (Rule 13). The Court agreed – but found the skipper of the Garnholm equally at fault. He was sleeping and thus had no look-out. “The obligation to maintain a proper lookout falls upon great vessels and small, alike.”[/FONT]

It is interesting to note that (in the full text quoted in a later post) while the singlehander was chastised for not keeping adequate watch, the monetary judgement was levied against the overtaking merchant vessel!

Note especially that the issue of the singlehander's watchkeeping was addressed buy the judge, and EVEN THEN the judgement was in his favor.

To me this decision puts to rest all the pedantic arguments seen above that suggest that a singlehander, if involved in a collision whilst sleeping, will be found at fault.

Of course, this will be of scant interest to the singlehander who is run down, sunk and drowned.

All of us who sometimes singlehand should realize that the practice is inherently more dangerous than sailing with a full crew, but it seems that we need not fear automatic assignment of guilt for so doing.

Thanks to the two posters who have brought this actual court decision to my attention.

Cheers,

Jim

[jackdale]

Originally Posted by psneeld

Plus they canged the name to Nav Rules a ways back....

Those would be International Rules for Preventing Collisions at Sea

Navigation Rules is a US publication

The U.S Coast Guard Commandant Instruction M16672.2D, NAVIGATION RULES: International-Inland (March 25th, 1999, pdf, 1.29 MB) is a compendium of: the International Regulations for Preventing Collisions at Sea, 1972 (72 COLREGS) (33 U.S.C. 1601-1608), a listing of the COLREGS Demarcation Lines (33 CFR 80), the Inland Navigation Rules (33 CFR 83), their respective technical annexes (33 CFR 84-90), the Vessel Bridge-to-Bridge Radiotelephone Regulations, (33 CFR 26), and, various other legal provisions regarding compliance and penalties associated with the Navigation Rules produced by the U.S. Coast Guard Navigation Standards Branch at Coast Guard Headquarters, Washington, DC 20593-7856.

Many countries, including Canada, have modifications to IRPCS or ColRegs.

[psneeld]

Originally Posted by jackdale

Those would be International Rules for Preventing Collisions at Sea

Navigation Rules is a US publication



Many countries, including Canada, have modifications to IRPCS or ColRegs.

Sorry...I stand corrected.

[goboatingnow]

Originally Posted by jackdale

Those would be International Rules for Preventing Collisions at Sea

Navigation Rules is a US publication

Many countries, including Canada, have modifications to IRPCS or ColRegs.

Only that apply to " inland waters".