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Old 26-08-2017, 12:05   #46
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Re: Radar waves safe for humans?

[regarding peak vs average power]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ziggy View Post
While generally true, this is a bit misleading.
Ziggy, I completely agree. I was merely trying to keep it simple -- perhaps too simple in retrospect.

However, FCC/ANSI safety standards are, if I am not mistaken, based on the heating effects of radio waves. To be sure, RF heating is the only significant danger for which we have evidence, but some people do make a plausible case for there being non-heating effects at the molecular/cellular level, and this could be caused by brief high-power pulses. I am not aware of any tests that demonstrate such a phenomenon causing damage, but perhaps there's more to this safety thing than just the long-term average power?

And no, I'm not one of those "RF sensitive" people, not by a long shot.
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Old 26-08-2017, 13:21   #47
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Re: Radar waves safe for humans?

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Originally Posted by Paul Elliott View Post
[regarding peak vs average power]I am not aware of any tests that demonstrate such a phenomenon causing damage, but perhaps there's more to this safety thing than just the long-term average power?
i suppose there could be, and that's why I wouldn't sit next to the antenna if I didn't have to. But as you said, I'm not aware of any studies that demonstrate any harmful effects other than from heating. I suppose that if the peak power were high enough, you could get electrical breakdown (think lightning). But recreational marine radars are pretty far removed from these peak power levels.

I'd be more concerned about spending a lot of time with a cell phone next to my head.
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Old 26-08-2017, 16:06   #48
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Re: Radar waves safe for humans?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ziggy View Post
While generally true, this is a bit misleading. The FCC/ANSI non-ionizing radiation safety standard at marine radar frequency (X-band) for general public is 1mW/cm^2 average power density over a 6 minute period. In other words, the concern is average, not peak power. Average power for a conventional 2.2kW pulsed radar is about 1W, compared to 0.165W for the 4G FMCW solid state radar. So yes, the solid state radar radiates about 6x less average power, but it's not quite as dramatic as comparing 2.2kW with 0.165W might suggest. Furthermore, in both cases the average power radiated in any particular direction is reduced by the antenna rotation and beam pattern. While I wouldn't want to deliberately sit in front of either radar if I didn't have to, I think both types are safe.
Well done, Ziggy... first post that actually addresses the question with a factual answer. There seems to be some sort of morbid fascination with factors that are perceived to threaten gonads, and folk "wisdom" springs up around the subjects. Thanks for shedding some clear light on the issue.

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Old 26-08-2017, 16:55   #49
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Re: Radar waves safe for humans?

I believe the OP was asking about taking an existing radar off a pole and lowering it. Checking the type would seem prudent. Enough has been said to let him know if he should or shouldn't depending on his unit.
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Old 26-08-2017, 16:56   #50
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Re: Radar waves safe for humans?

4G radar is touted as being "safer". Even then I would not want my body a couple of meters away and directly in the beam unless I felt my local oncologist was under employed.
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Old 26-08-2017, 18:04   #51
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Re: Radar waves safe for humans?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Suijin View Post
4G radar is touted as being "safer". Even then I would not want my body a couple of meters away and directly in the beam unless I felt my local oncologist was under employed.
Have you read Ziggy's posts above? They show that the rather conservative FCC/ANSI standards indicate that there is no threat from either type of recreational radar scanners. Further, there is no clinical or theoretical evidence that there is a cancer risk from non-ionizing radiation at these levels.

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Old 26-08-2017, 18:14   #52
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Re: Radar waves safe for humans?

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... no clinical or theoretical evidence that there is a cancer risk from non-ionizing radiation at these levels.
Not yet!

Sorry, don't mean to be flippant, but research tends to be funded by those with a financial interest in the outcome. Even the most prestigious medical research foundations have, in the past, been found to withhold research findings that displeased the funding source. Not suggesting this has happened in this case but...
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Old 26-08-2017, 18:22   #53
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Re: Radar waves safe for humans?

Good grief. You have several different viewpoints expostulating. One group knows nothing, yet needs to blather. Another group has some knowledge and is able to communicate that there are different kinds of radar, some of which one will find on boats of moderate size. And the last group is savvy with modern developments in radar, specifically, broadband. Read SIMRAD. Whole different story.
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Old 26-08-2017, 18:32   #54
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Re: Radar waves safe for humans?

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Originally Posted by NevisDog View Post
Not yet!

Sorry, don't mean to be flippant, but research tends to be funded by those with a financial interest in the outcome. Even the most prestigious medical research foundations have, in the past, been found to withhold research findings that displeased the funding source. Not suggesting this has happened in this case but...
So, what ARE you suggesting?

The regulatory bodies that generate these standards are both national and international (the ICRP for instance) and not funded by Philip Morris or Furuno. They review data and studies from a very wide ranging set of institutions, such that it is hard to believe that they are all biased by their funding suppliers.

It's not like there is a paucity of data sources, for the health risks of radiation, both ionizing and non-ionizing, have been extensively studied for many decades. Your "not yet" attitude is poorly supported and if serious, IMO pretty naive.

Jim
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Old 26-08-2017, 18:52   #55
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Re: Radar waves safe for humans?

If non-ionizing radiation below ANSI and OSHA levels could be proved to harm even one person there would be lawsuits out the wazoo. The preponderance of "research" on this subject is mostly trying to prove there is a link to cancer or other disease. The money trail leads to lawyers lusting after trust funds like asbestos, PCBs and other famous cancer causing substances. They stand to get billions and so far have not found a link. If there were a link they would have found it by now.
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Old 26-08-2017, 18:57   #56
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Re: Radar waves safe for humans?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim Cate View Post
So, what ARE you suggesting?...
Uh-oh, didn't really want to expand this thread into medical research but you did ask:
Dr Hans Nieper worked for most of the most prestigious medical schools around the world at some point in his career. He became a little disillusioned with some of the US research institutes following some political interference in the ?1970s? that caused some research from one of his colleagues to be suppressed. (The research outcome could not be patented, so income streams were put at risk - you get the drift, usual story.):
"... despite the development of increasingly sophisticated diagnostic and monitoring devices for measuring the electrical activity of the body,medicine has never questioned the source of this enormous [electrical] energy ... medicine has largely neglected the therapeutic implications... cellular functions depend on the maintenance of very precise electrical balance within and without the cell, and ... relatively minor changes in that balance can have catastrophic consequences... the addition of energy field to this picture unveiled an entirely new dimension to the possible causes and treatments of disease."
Needless to say, his research has not been followed up in the US, but continues in Europe.

Many may scoff, that's the usual reaction to anything not prescribed by your MD. So be it.
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Old 26-08-2017, 19:07   #57
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Re: Radar waves safe for humans?

One data point.

A colleague was repairing a small boat radar (on the workbench) about 10 years back. Due to raft of reasons and errors, he was subjected to several hours of radiation (non-ionizing) mainly directed to his mid and lower torso. The waveguide was around 1 to 2 feet from his body.

The result was stomach pains, nausea and vomiting later that night which continued for the next few days. Medical attention found no other causes for the symptoms.

AFAIK, the damage was not permanent.
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Old 26-08-2017, 19:28   #58
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Re: Radar waves safe for humans?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Roy M View Post
... One group knows nothing, ...
Ah ... could that be the group that disagrees with your particular viewpoint? Oh dear. Less of the put-downs please. (And now I've just made a put-down. Darn!)
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Old 27-08-2017, 10:37   #59
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Re: Radar waves safe for humans?

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Originally Posted by transmitterdan View Post
If non-ionizing radiation below ANSI and OSHA levels could be proved to harm even one person there would be lawsuits out the wazoo. The preponderance of "research" on this subject is mostly trying to prove there is a link to cancer or other disease. The money trail leads to lawyers lusting after trust funds like asbestos, PCBs and other famous cancer causing substances. They stand to get billions and so far have not found a link. If there were a link they would have found it by now.

Right on! Remember the #$@% raised with high voltage transmission lines? Lawsuits.... just give a law firm the slightest hint of being able to get somebody else's buck and get ready for a class action.

I just got an email this weekend that BankNorth is the subject of a class action because of some action related to their Penny Arcade coin counting machines. I don't know if the suit is because BankNorth removed the service or if somebody found a counting mistake. And BankNorth's service was free!

Stop & Shop has similar machines and they charge 11% for counting.
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Old 27-08-2017, 15:14   #60
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Re: Radar waves safe for humans?

Let's remember the OP asked about mounting his radar at a level where crew would be in the radar beam.
I don't care how weak the beam is i won't be standing close to an operating radar. It's not worth the risk.
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