PV market is shut off to China

[Zonker]

Originally Posted by Celestialsailor

The issue is their unfair trade practices. If they played nice, there would not be tariffs levied on them.

Yea ... you still think the US is the world police ? Well do that and spend trillions on that. But other civilization will reap the benefits. As I said, the real truth is that the far east and the arabs are keeping the largest holding of US debt. Just imagine what would happen if they start to dump it. A hamburger for $100 how does that sound ?

Originally Posted by Celestialsailor

It is a known fact that they deflate their currency and sell below cost to put other manufacturers out of business.

That is free market capitalism - I know other countries which do that.

Oh ... how much did the USD decline in the last 50 years compared to the other major currencies ? May be 500-1000% ? ... isn't that deflating the currency too ?

Originally Posted by Celestialsailor

Sure, I'm grateful for there inexpensive products but not so pleased seeing people layed off because of their greed.

See that is the real problem. If the US folks would REALLY care about their industry then they would buy "Made in US" products and pay the higher prices. But is this the case ? Nope ... it's easier to blame other countries and cultures for own problems.

[Celestialsailor]

You seem to have a real black or white view on world issues. Good luck with that.

[Zonker]

Originally Posted by tropicalescape

Dude are you one of those wantabe Gangnam style cowboys that think China can do what the west has already done many years ago..They copy everthing,they do not invent anything! China has no jet engine tecnology,they buy all of there engines for all of their aircraft from Russia,everything they build is a copy of someone elses designs,they cant even power their own aircraft with china made engines ,once again,"comparing china to the west is like comparing an ox-cart to a Cadillac"...They are on the bottom rung of the world wide tech. ladder...this is true ,no one says I want to be like China! We will all see very soon what China represents as far as advanced technology and human rights...Dont belive me ,just ask someone from Tibet!..

Well well ... if the US is soooo advanced, why are they not making PV cells which have a much better price/power ratio .. for ex 10 cents/watt ? Then the whole world would buy that product. Well ... they've (may be) tried and failed.

If you were a little bit more educated then you would know that everything is a copy. That is called evolution - and those which are not good enough get dumped (may be like the US PV business).

Comparing China and US : Well go back in history of the US / Great Britain. I bet the English commander of the colonies said the same thing about the US too ... :-)

Every civilization will decline from their peak. And the sign of that are ppl like you - not trying to be ahead, just believing you are. I guess it's time for the US to step down as number 1 (economically it's pretty sure that will happen in the next 10-20 years).

[Pete7]

So is this going to alter the price we pay for solar panels?

Personally I don't think so. If we price China out of the market they will just make them somewhere else, me I would choose Mexico, right next door to the big market place. That nice Raymarine gear was being made in Hungary till they priced themselves out, result factory was moved to another country in a couple of months.

Whilst the import tariffs might hurt China, the feed in tariffs to encourage folks to fit to there houses are dropping across Europe so less and less incentives to buy, result market currently flooded perhaps?

Pete

[propellanttech]

The funny thing about solar power, and other imports.

The typical person doesn't know the difference in a Japanese product over a Chinese product.

Kyocera is probably one of the best solar panel makers in the world. I didn't say the best, but they definitely rank somewhere around the top. Kyocera is a Japanese company not a Chinese company.

The educated in America do not have a problem with Japanese products nor the trade with them. However many try to group them together. It isn't the same.

The Chinese products will never compare in quality or performance with Japanese. This is due to the culture differences in the countries.

It's like comparing German engineering with anyone else. There are very few countries who can even come close to the Germans with respect to quality, but it does depend on the item. It's their lifestyle/culture which make this happen, not anything more.

With respect to solar panels and everything else, which is used for cruising. There is a vicious circle happening in our economy which will be rectified, one way or another. We are just now starting to see the ripples which will grow, if not canceled out. The signs have been around for a while, but now we are well aware of them.

This is why I have chosen to go cruising now. It is time for me to buy panels, no matter what they cost.

James L

[propellanttech]

Originally Posted by Zonker

Well well ... if the US is soooo advanced, why are they not making PV cells which have a much better price/power ratio .. for ex 10 cents/watt ? Then the whole world would buy that product. Well ... they've (may be) tried and failed.

If you were a little bit more educated then you would know that everything is a copy. That is called evolution - and those which are not good enough get dumped (may be like the US PV business).

Comparing China and US : Well go back in history of the US / Great Britain. I bet the English commander of the colonies said the same thing about the US too ... :-)

Every civilization will decline from their peak. And the sign of that are ppl like you - not trying to be ahead, just believing you are. I guess it's time for the US to step down as number 1 (economically it's pretty sure that will happen in the next 10-20 years).

This is where you are wrong. The scientist in the US are working on the next generation solar cells which will not be cheaper initially, but will produce 2-3x more power for given area. If you did some research you would know that.

The new solar cells will use much more of the solar spectrum, instead of just the IR band. They have already had success finding what will provide more power, and how to manufacturer it.

But some country who pays their people the equivalent of $1.50 per week will eventually copy it, and put the US companies out of business. Which is what happens.

You talk about quality, but it is not. It's about labor. Quality products suffer because of supply/demand. When the market is flooded with inferior products it causes the better manufacturers to suffer. Simple economics.

James L

[sailorboy1]

Originally Posted by propellanttech

.

The educated in America do not have a problem with Japanese products nor the trade with them. However many try to group them together. It isn't the same.

The Chinese products will never compare in quality or performance with Japanese. This is due to the culture differences in the countries.

I'm positive that it wasn't long ago that we talked about the Japanese that way we are currently talking about the Chinese! And before that it was the Taiwanese.

I'm pretty sure this is the free trade model that we are under for Globalization! Things are made where/how it provides a competitive advantage in the market place. People always complain about it and then go out and spend their money on it. Regardless of what people say they vote with their cash and the votes say they really mostly only care about low prices!

Now back to solar panels!

[tropicalescape]

Originally Posted by Zonker

Well well ... if the US is soooo advanced, why are they not making PV cells which have a much better price/power ratio .. for ex 10 cents/watt ? Then the whole world would buy that product. Well ... they've (may be) tried and failed.

If you were a little bit more educated then you would know that everything is a copy. That is called evolution - and those which are not good enough get dumped (may be like the US PV business).

Comparing China and US : Well go back in history of the US / Great Britain. I bet the English commander of the colonies said the same thing about the US too ... :-)

Every civilization will decline from their peak. And the sign of that are ppl like you - not trying to be ahead, just believing you are. I guess it's time for the US to step down as number 1 (economically it's pretty sure that will happen in the next 10-20 years).

The only reason China is the worlds 2nd biggest economy is because they have over 1 billion people and that is the reason they will be the biggest economy "if" it keeps going the way they hope it goes by 2020 . they have tried and failed" and that is the jest of this whole thread, we tried, but its hard to sale something when your compatition is a cheat ..this to is subject to change,just wait and see,you cant be a commie and part of the free enterprise system. this will be evident before 2013 is over, Chinas days of eating cake while everyone else watchs is OVER!

[ArtM]

Originally Posted by tropicalescape

The only reason China is the worlds 2nd biggest economy is because they have over 1 billion people and that is the reason they will be the biggest economy "if" it keeps going the way they hope it goes by 2020 . they have tried and failed" and that is the jest of this whole thread, we tried, but its hard to sale something when your compatition is a cheat ..this to is subject to change,just wait and see,you cant be a commie and part of the free enterprise system. this will be evident before 2013 is over, Chinas days of eating cake while everyone else watchs is OVER!

And so it gradually become apparant to the masses that "level playing field" is just political talk - just so much mumbo jumbo designed to keep the average joe voting republican and hating everything that is not American.

When Americans are willing to live like the Chinese, then we will have a "level playing field". What westerners want is a clearly NON-level playing field where the Americans are on the high ground,rolling boulders down at everyone else.

"Illegally dumping" products is an illegal concept in America. It would be illegal for American product providers to agree to set limits on how much product they will produce. This is purely super-power politics, and has everything to do with keeping the western industrialized nations superior to the under-developed eastern nations, and nothing to do with cheaply produced solar panels.

[neelie]

I'm not here to defend China, I agree their trade practices and currency manipulation are not fair. The USA is living in the same glasshouse as China with its farm subsidies, indirect subsidies to Boeing etc, the bailing out of banks and big auto, the unfairly cheap migrant labour to work your farms etc.

The fact is its a dog eat dog world out there, NO one is squeaky clean, they all play dirty to extract any advantage that they can. We're only pi$$ed because of late, China has been better at it than the rest of us.

As I said earlier, if we were not such a wasteful, consumerist society, then this thread/conversation would not be happening.

Is no good blaming China, Mexico, Vietnam, India etc etc. The blame lies with each of us, we created this monster.

[Celestialsailor]

Oh hell...lets just go sailing and forget about it!...

[tropicalescape]

Originally Posted by neelie

I'm not here to defend China, I agree their trade practices and currency manipulation are not fair. The USA is living in the same glasshouse as China with its farm subsidies, indirect subsidies to Boeing etc, the bailing out of banks and big auto, the unfairly cheap migrant labour to work your farms etc.

The fact is its a dog eat dog world out there, NO one is squeaky clean, they all play dirty to extract any advantage that they can. We're only pi$$ed because of late, China has been better at it than the rest of us.

As I said earlier, if we were not such a wasteful, consumerist society, then this thread/conversation would not be happening.

Is no good blaming China, Mexico, Vietnam, India etc etc. The blame lies with each of us, we created this monster.

If HK had to abide by the mainland way of doing things would you still feel the same way? Just wondering...

[tropicalescape]

Originally Posted by ArtM

And so it gradually become apparant to the masses that "level playing field" is just political talk - just so much mumbo jumbo designed to keep the average joe voting republican and hating everything that is not American.

When Americans are willing to live like the Chinese, then we will have a "level playing field". What westerners want is a clearly NON-level playing field where the Americans are on the high ground,rolling boulders down at everyone else.

"Illegally dumping" products is an illegal concept in America. It would be illegal for American product providers to agree to set limits on how much product they will produce. This is purely super-power politics, and has everything to do with keeping the western industrialized nations superior to the under-developed eastern nations, and nothing to do with cheaply produced solar panels.

I dont think the average joe votes republican...The Chinese and Russians are trying to drop there way of doing things in favor of the western way of doing things,and they cant go to the front of the line when doing so,they should pay there dues and respect human rights ,intellectual property rights and the like...

[David_Old_Jersey]

Originally Posted by tropicalescape

They copy everthing,they do not invent anything! China has no jet engine tecnology,they buy all of there engines for all of their aircraft from Russia,everything they build is a copy of someone elses designs,they cant even power their own aircraft with china made engines ,once again,"comparing china to the west is like comparing an ox-cart to a Cadillac"...They are on the bottom rung of the world wide tech. ladder...this is true ,no one says I want to be like China!

Of course they are copying (including stealing!) what others have done - they are playing catch up, simply no need to spend the time re-inventing the wheel.......civilisations have always advanced on the backs of each other.

Historically the Chinese have been rather inventive - my bet is that will be again when needed (Personally I love the idea that the Great Wall of China was created not primarily as a defensive structure - but as a communication tool!.....back then folks in Northern Europe were being amazed at Roman inventions like......indoor hot water ).

Am not sure how accurate this list is:-

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Chinese_inventions

But the "big four" seem to be theirs........

paper
printing
gunpowder
the compass!


At the moment I can't say there is anything that has the label of "Made in China" that I would love to own (apart from maybe some Ming Vases - made from Porcelain, aka fine china ).....but even in my lifetime "Jap Crap" changed to desirable products (especially Electronics, Cars and Motorcycles).

Add in that the Chinese are natural traders then IMO that is a winning combination........politically I would describe them less as communist - more as pragmatists , and for that the closest convential term is National Socialist ............and obviously that does have the capacity to end badly , especially if your country lives next door (or as the British Empire found out the hard way - you put own ass in a sling over a far away country of which you actually cared little, except for the willy waving opportunity).

Lets just hope they don't all buy boats. or Hunters .

[Zonker]

Originally Posted by propellanttech

This is where you are wrong. The scientist in the US are working on the next generation solar cells which will not be cheaper initially, but will produce 2-3x more power for given area. If you did some research you would know that.

The new solar cells will use much more of the solar spectrum, instead of just the IR band. They have already had success finding what will provide more power, and how to manufacturer it.

...

James L

Dear James ... I am an EE and I know what's out there. See the issue is not the efficiency - sounds wrong but is not. Generally PV systems are put on the roof or on large non-used farm land - and usually the limitation of the surface is not the issue but the the cost per watt you get is.

Studies have shown that if all roofs on earth are covered with PV panels of current technology (Mono-, Poly-Si and even Amorph-Si !) then the energy problem would be solved (energy storage excluded !).

So the efficiency is for 99.99% of all PV applications totally sufficient. There is the 0.01% applications such PV on a (monohull) sailing boat where higher efficiency would be great. But to spends hundreds of millions to make a few sailors happy - well you dont have to be an economist to find out it's a little bit overblown.

As I stated in my previous posts : the question was/is do you want a) to invest money in making cells more efficient or b) making production of cells more efficient ?

US chose to go for a) ... and lost a LOT of the PV business
China chose to go for b) ... and is now no 1

As the world (may be except for the US) is heading for more renewable energy, the train already left the station but obviously without the US (and some EU) companies. Because the US companies are still trying to invent something which is currently not required.

Further Europe dropped now into a recession, the subsidy in Europe has been more or less shut down - and there you have the market flooded with MW or even GW of PV panels. Well wouldn't you be stupid to sell your inventory as quickly as possible just to reduce the inventory - this is 101 finance. Pls get a CPA here to explain that !