Cruisers Forum
 


Join CruisersForum Today

Closed Thread
 
Thread Tools Rate Thread Display Modes
Old 19-11-2012, 20:46   #91
Registered User

Join Date: Sep 2012
Posts: 48
Re: PV market is shut off to China

There are well manufactured panels here in the U.S. Solar City designs, and manufacturers here and they are price competitive. Panels getting cheaper is good for everyone.
__________________

__________________
ikold is offline  
Old 19-11-2012, 21:03   #92
Registered User

Join Date: Dec 2010
Posts: 264
Images: 1
Re: PV market is shut off to China

Quote:
Originally Posted by David_Old_Jersey View Post
the compass!
I am starting to hate this invention ... :-) ... why were they not able to invent a compass with automatic declination correction ?

Says a dude fighting with CADET !
__________________

__________________
Zonker is offline  
Old 19-11-2012, 21:29   #93
Registered User

Join Date: Oct 2011
Boat: WTB Lagoon or Leopard 38'-40'
Posts: 1,273
Re: PV market is shut off to China

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zonker View Post
I am starting to hate this invention ... :-) ... why were they not able to invent a compass with automatic declination correction ?

Says a dude fighting with CADET !
They did, it's called a "chart plotter".
__________________
ArtM is offline  
Old 19-11-2012, 21:29   #94
Registered User
 
propellanttech's Avatar

Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: B'ham, Al
Posts: 356
Re: PV market is shut off to China

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zonker View Post
Dear James ... I am an EE and I know what's out there. See the issue is not the efficiency - sounds wrong but is not. Generally PV systems are put on the roof or on large non-used farm land - and usually the limitation of the surface is not the issue but the the cost per watt you get is.

Studies have shown that if all roofs on earth are covered with PV panels of current technology (Mono-, Poly-Si and even Amorph-Si !) then the energy problem would be solved (energy storage excluded !).

So the efficiency is for 99.99% of all PV applications totally sufficient. There is the 0.01% applications such PV on a (monohull) sailing boat where higher efficiency would be great. But to spends hundreds of millions to make a few sailors happy - well you dont have to be an economist to find out it's a little bit overblown.

As I stated in my previous posts : the question was/is do you want a) to invest money in making cells more efficient or b) making production of cells more efficient ?

US chose to go for a) ... and lost a LOT of the PV business
China chose to go for b) ... and is now no 1

As the world (may be except for the US) is heading for more renewable energy, the train already left the station but obviously without the US (and some EU) companies. Because the US companies are still trying to invent something which is currently not required.

Further Europe dropped now into a recession, the subsidy in Europe has been more or less shut down - and there you have the market flooded with MW or even GW of PV panels. Well wouldn't you be stupid to sell your inventory as quickly as possible just to reduce the inventory - this is 101 finance. Pls get a CPA here to explain that !
Since you are an EE, you know that plan would never work. The infrastructure for delivering power would never allow for power to be transmitted to where it is needed. That would mean every facility would require more space than they currently possess. The wattage demands of a household or business is much greater than the available watt per foot panels, given their current space.

So where are we to get this extra space? Well, since we can't transmit the power effectively, we must go with higher watt per foot solar panels. You did notice we are not in the superconductor age yet......right?

The US is looking for a viable way to do it, not just a system that would never produce enough power to begin with.

Seems like they are on the right path to me.

James L
__________________
There is no cure for stupid, only elimination!
propellanttech is offline  
Old 20-11-2012, 01:29   #95
Registered User

Join Date: Dec 2010
Posts: 264
Images: 1
Re: PV market is shut off to China

Quote:
Originally Posted by propellanttech View Post
Since you are an EE, you know that plan would never work. The infrastructure for delivering power would never allow for power to be transmitted to where it is needed. That would mean every facility would require more space than they currently possess. The wattage demands of a household or business is much greater than the available watt per foot panels, given their current space.

So where are we to get this extra space? Well, since we can't transmit the power effectively, we must go with higher watt per foot solar panels. You did notice we are not in the superconductor age yet......right?

The US is looking for a viable way to do it, not just a system that would never produce enough power to begin with.

Seems like they are on the right path to me.

James L
Not quite ... in Europe there is a big discussion/planning going on regarding the super grid. Idea is that electricity of all sorts of renewable energy should be distributed throughout Europe. With current technology it's quite feasible to distribute the electricity but question of course is who's gonna pay for the infrastructure. And you don't need superconductor - you need a grid (many lines to the same point ?! ... Ohm's law - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia might help to understand)

Actually the next few years gonna be very interesting - Germany (and small Switzerland) decided to get rid of nuclear energy and boosting renewable energy. During peak time natural gas / coal power plants should provide the extra juice. But overall the electricity is going to be more expensive. Further the feed in tariffs should be more favorable to the producers. So I really wonder if PV is getting another boost again.

Regarding the US - well they are talking about a super grid too. But as long as the gov is trying to spend less, I wonder who might be the sponsor. If you are nice you might get some credit from China in form of "infrastructure Made in China" ... :-) ... oops dam Chinese labourers in the US ! Sorry !
__________________
Zonker is offline  
Old 20-11-2012, 06:31   #96
Registered User
 
propellanttech's Avatar

Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: B'ham, Al
Posts: 356
Re: PV market is shut off to China

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zonker View Post
Not quite ... in Europe there is a big discussion/planning going on regarding the super grid. Idea is that electricity of all sorts of renewable energy should be distributed throughout Europe. With current technology it's quite feasible to distribute the electricity but question of course is who's gonna pay for the infrastructure. And you don't need superconductor - you need a grid (many lines to the same point ?! ... Ohm's law - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia might help to understand)

Actually the next few years gonna be very interesting - Germany (and small Switzerland) decided to get rid of nuclear energy and boosting renewable energy. During peak time natural gas / coal power plants should provide the extra juice. But overall the electricity is going to be more expensive. Further the feed in tariffs should be more favorable to the producers. So I really wonder if PV is getting another boost again.

Regarding the US - well they are talking about a super grid too. But as long as the gov is trying to spend less, I wonder who might be the sponsor. If you are nice you might get some credit from China in form of "infrastructure Made in China" ... :-) ... oops dam Chinese labourers in the US ! Sorry !
See, now you are talking about a total technology change, not just PV. You excluded that information, for your hypothetical speech about PV having enough power to use at this point.

Funny, you point out Ohms law, like I haven't a clue what it is. Then talk about the infrastructure like it's a minor thing. Plus you didn't mention about the power differences and where that change over will be the greatest loss, along with transmission being the next area to loose a large portion. Then you didn't give any real numbers to back up your proposal of the solar panels being power dense enough to do it.

Your not just speaking of a Power supply change, you talking about some magical total power infrastructure change. There is a difference.

The members here are talking about local power generation, not some large infrastructure. The US is going to local generation, not another system which waste power getting it from one place to another.

Also you didn't mention how the power would really need to be AC for the most efficient means of transport. Since Ohms law applies here, you would need to pump the voltage up to around 110,000 volts for efficient transmission (due to current for those that don't know), and then take a loss on every line it travels down, which equates into even more PV cells to balance out the loss.

I like the way you leave out the details, where all the problems begin.

Don't talk about efficiency of solar cells until you can show the extra costs will not be more than the panels themselves.

We are talking about local generation, not some "fantasy" system which uses some "magical" solution, which isn't even invented yet.

Solar panels for your home or boat is self sufficiency. The US is working to make each independent. Hopefully it will happen. If not, coal and natural gas will be the norm.

James L
__________________
There is no cure for stupid, only elimination!
propellanttech is offline  
Old 20-11-2012, 06:41   #97
Moderator Emeritus
 
GordMay's Avatar

Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Thunder Bay, Ontario - 48-29N x 89-20W
Boat: (Cruiser Living On Dirt)
Posts: 31,573
Images: 240
Re: PV market is shut off to China

Quote:
Originally Posted by propellanttech View Post
... Also you didn't mention how the power would really need to be AC for the most efficient means of transport ...
For long-distance transmission, high-voltage, direct current (HVDC) systems may be less expensive and suffer lower electrical losses than do AC systems; and may also offer a method of connecting asynchronous grids, or grids of different frequencies.

http://www.trec-uk.org.uk/reports/la...AC_to_HVDC.pdf
__________________
Gord May
"If you didn't have the time or money to do it right in the first place, when will you get the time/$ to fix it?"



GordMay is offline  
Old 20-11-2012, 06:53   #98
Registered User
 
propellanttech's Avatar

Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: B'ham, Al
Posts: 356
Re: PV market is shut off to China

Quote:
Originally Posted by GordMay View Post
For long-distance transmission, high-voltage, direct current (HVDC) systems may be less expensive and suffer lower electrical losses than do AC systems; and may also offer a method of connecting asynchronous grids, or grids of different frequencies.

http://www.trec-uk.org.uk/reports/la...AC_to_HVDC.pdf
But the conversion is loss related operation, yet more PV panels.

James L
__________________
There is no cure for stupid, only elimination!
propellanttech is offline  
Old 20-11-2012, 07:33   #99
Registered User

Join Date: Dec 2010
Posts: 264
Images: 1
Re: PV market is shut off to China

Oh dear ... I really don't want to flush a sailing forum with non-sailing stuff. Therefore I just post this link for those which do not know Wikipedia yet : Super grid - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

@James ... you gotta look ahead. The PV system on your roof is just one application. There are a lot more - best you use Google to inform yourself. Point is - there is endless renewable energy available. But some areas have to "import" it. Think about supply / demand and you will understand what super grid is all about. And of course the transport of energy (oil, gas, coal, electricity) does consume energy itself.

And finally - the numbers already show who the master of PV technology is ... and it's not the US ... :-)
__________________
Zonker is offline  
Old 20-11-2012, 07:43   #100
Mooderator
 
capngeo's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Key West & Sarasota
Boat: Cal 28 "Happy Days"
Posts: 4,211
Images: 12
Send a message via Yahoo to capngeo Send a message via Skype™ to capngeo
Re: PV market is shut off to China

Just to steer this back to CRUISING..... not power distribution on land
__________________
Any fool with a big enough checkbook can BUY a boat; it takes a SPECIAL type of fool to build his own! -Capngeo
capngeo is offline  
Old 20-11-2012, 07:48   #101
Registered User
 
propellanttech's Avatar

Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: B'ham, Al
Posts: 356
Re: PV market is shut off to China

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zonker View Post
Oh dear ... I really don't want to flush a sailing forum with non-sailing stuff. Therefore I just post this link for those which do not know Wikipedia yet : Super grid - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

@James ... you gotta look ahead. The PV system on your roof is just one application. There are a lot more - best you use Google to inform yourself. Point is - there is endless renewable energy available. But some areas have to "import" it. Think about supply / demand and you will understand what super grid is all about. And of course the transport of energy (oil, gas, coal, electricity) does consume energy itself.

And finally - the numbers already show who the master of PV technology is ... and it's not the US ... :-)
Oh dear, you keep talking about theoretical items that have nothing to do with PV. This conversation is about PV, not transmission or super grid. You keep talking theoretical, and then say the technology is available in the current PV panels.

Then you want to add in renewable energy, and not talk about the primary purpose of PV, which is independent generation. That is what it is mostly geared towards, not "net metering".

I do not need google to tell me all the uses of PV, I know them. There are also many other ways to use the sun to generate power, but that is not the conversation here.

I have been looking ahead for the last 28 years, and I keep seeing people plan without details.

The masters of PV are the people using it to be "off grid". They are the direct user with little to no public maintenance. They are the masters of PV. They have the best watt/expense over time of anyone with relation to PV.

James L
__________________
There is no cure for stupid, only elimination!
propellanttech is offline  
Old 20-11-2012, 08:51   #102
Marine Service Provider

Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: north carolina
Boat: command yachtsdouglas32
Posts: 3,113
Re: PV market is shut off to China

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zonker View Post
Oh dear ... I really don't want to flush a sailing forum with non-sailing stuff. Therefore I just post this link for those which do not know Wikipedia yet : Super grid - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

@James ... you gotta look ahead. The PV system on your roof is just one application. There are a lot more - best you use Google to inform yourself. Point is - there is endless renewable energy available. But some areas have to "import" it. Think about supply / demand and you will understand what super grid is all about. And of course the transport of energy (oil, gas, coal, electricity) does consume energy itself.

And finally - the numbers already show who the master of PV technology is ... and it's not the US ... :-)
China has a lot of interest in sailing since the O. Games, and if they get involved in the manufactoring of boats and sundury products I think they could fab. boats that would sale for 1/3 of what they cost else where... The masters of PV technology are Germans,Swiss,and the USA, China is the leader in the, make it from someone elses tech(copy), marketing it at artifical prices (cheating) and then crying about the folks that come out and put barriers in there way to prevent them from having total control of an industrie that they contribute very little to other than cheap labor ... Chinese definitions for , R&D :copy, marketing :dumping, Intellectual property rights :what is that?... When Kissinger went to China with his ping-pong diplomacy we knew we would have to give China some time to catch up with the rest of the world, so we gave them preferentual treatment, now that it is time to play fare they have gotten the attitude that they are a world power and will make or brake rules and guide lines when they see fit, they see that you can get a lot more done if you can have a dual system of Goverment, Hong Kong is a great example of this...
__________________
tropicalescape is offline  
Old 20-11-2012, 16:42   #103
Registered User

Join Date: Dec 2010
Posts: 264
Images: 1
Re: PV market is shut off to China

Hmm ... I hate to say that - but go back to WW 2. The US "invited" a Nazi to get a copy of it's first rocket - I have nothing against copying - but that is just the most disgusting way of doing it.

As history tells us (seems some ppl here missed the history lessons ... :-) copying is a part of advancing. It started with a zinc, bronze, iron axe and continues with rounded icons on smartphones GUIs and will never end.

The other story is of course to pay license for copying - but hey, why should China do it ? They will always remember you who owns your debt ... :-) ... and the yelling will silenced instantly. Seems only a few sailors still haven't understood what is going on.

PS :
>> The masters of PV technology are Germans,Swiss,and the USA
Germany - yes
Switzerland - yes but they are not able to make money of it
US - def. not as the many bankrupt US PV companies show, wanna be smarts but not smart to the end

Again ... PV industry is NO MORE HIGH TECH. It's a commodity business - if you don't believe it, then ask a stock analyst.
__________________
Zonker is offline  
Old 20-11-2012, 17:00   #104
Registered User

Join Date: Dec 2010
Posts: 264
Images: 1
Re: PV market is shut off to China

Quote:
Originally Posted by capngeo View Post
Just to steer this back to CRUISING..... not power distribution on land
Gotta defend the Chinese Solar companies - seems some ppl just forget why the panels are affordable now. The technology has been here for decades but the production has never tried to be made cost-effecive. You can ask why this was the case !

For those who are starring at the panel prices - just relax. The US and EU will lose PV business outside their boundary since China can/will always offer lower prices. So the inventory will stay high which will put automatically pressure on "home made" PV panels. The whole political game will backfire - at least for the US - cause the domestic market is not really convinced of PV.

But good news for the sailors seeking for cheap panels but bad for the green energy job markets in the US.
__________________
Zonker is offline  
Old 20-11-2012, 17:21   #105
Registered User
 
Captivy's Avatar

Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: Ontario
Boat: Gozzard 31
Posts: 47
Quote:
Originally Posted by Captain Bill
It seems to me the west has been in a trade war with China for about 20 years, so far China has been the only side fighting.
Bingo!
__________________

__________________
Captivy is offline  
Closed Thread

Tags
China

Thread Tools
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off




Copyright 2002- Social Knowledge, LLC All Rights Reserved.

All times are GMT -7. The time now is 14:49.


Google+
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Social Knowledge Networks
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.

ShowCase vBulletin Plugins by Drive Thru Online, Inc.