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Old 18-11-2012, 13:03   #61
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Re: PV market is shut off to China

I hope the Chinese wait a while before going for world domination.....we are still building "Fortress Europe" (anyone else remember that great US bogeyman? ).

My suspicion is that the 21st Century will not be Chinese, it will be...............European (no sniggering!). Given that only 20 odd years back half of Europe was still economically 3rd world, and that large chunks of Eastern Europe still are, plus Europe (via the EU) has room to expand both economically and geographically then the scope to progress is there. Whether that actually comes to pass is another thing......(the Eurozone thing is a storm in a teacup - push comes to shove it just gets replaced by the NewEurozone and folks get told to suck it up - or invade .....but this time we have the Germans!).

What will be interesting is what the Chinese do once they have used up all their cheap labour pool, will they go the US route of seeking to maintain a pool of peasants overseas or go towards the European model of a rising sea raises all boats, including those of your neighbours.....with the bonus that your immediate neighbours less likely to be sending tanks over the border if they are making money from the status quo.

How does all that affect solar panels?....errr ....probably in any scenario the sun will still rise in the morning ......on the European Empire .
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Old 18-11-2012, 20:27   #62
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Re: PV market is shut off to China

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I hope the Chinese wait a while before going for world domination.....we are still building "Fortress Europe" (anyone else remember that great US bogeyman? ).

My suspicion is that the 21st Century will not be Chinese, it will be...............European (no sniggering!). Given that only 20 odd years back half of Europe was still economically 3rd world, and that large chunks of Eastern Europe still are, plus Europe (via the EU) has room to expand both economically and geographically then the scope to progress is there. Whether that actually comes to pass is another thing......(the Eurozone thing is a storm in a teacup - push comes to shove it just gets replaced by the NewEurozone and folks get told to suck it up - or invade .....but this time we have the Germans!).

What will be interesting is what the Chinese do once they have used up all their cheap labour pool, will they go the US route of seeking to maintain a pool of peasants overseas or go towards the European model of a rising sea raises all boats, including those of your neighbours.....with the bonus that your immediate neighbours less likely to be sending tanks over the border if they are making money from the status quo.

How does all that affect solar panels?....errr ....probably in any scenario the sun will still rise in the morning ......on the European Empire .
There is a lot of "Truth" to your statements regarding the future of labor and new markets in Europe...What will it be like after the ASEAN,BRICS(dont really think that the S (S.Africa) really belongs in there but!?)countries get going with there own common currency(not)? I am going to buy another solar panel setup just to avoid paying more in a year or so from now...stainless steel seems to be another product that will be going up in price also (in Europe)...Lumber is also(except reclaimed) going the way of PV,china,stainless steel...Russia is trying to setup a pipe line for naturel gas that can be cut off for Europe and sent to China,then if Europe will pay more they can simply turn a valve and redirect it back to Europe...China wont sign the deal because they think Russia will play them against Europe,so they want the pipe line to be dedicated to one direction or the other,Russia also wants China to pay up front for the gas so as to pay for the pipe line,sounds like a good deal(for Russia)...Its about to get intense...
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Old 18-11-2012, 20:38   #63
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Re: PV market is shut off to China

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Yes, this is really serious stuff for the English, after all you can't have a proper cup of tea in any old mug so we are introducing tariffs on imported china from China. That should sort them out and have them quaking in their boots

Brussels introduces 'crockery tax' on cheap items imported from China | Mail Online
it did mention that local production will pick up ...that means more jobs for more local folks and that is a good thing as far as I can see...that means the days of cheap artificial priced goods is coming to an end ,I hope ! China has had the luxury of "dumping" products all over the world for well over 30 years and they would continue doing it if left to their on devices...Hope we see mom and pop come back home ...
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Old 18-11-2012, 21:01   #64
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Re: PV market is shut off to China

Jesus Christ .... seems nobody here heard of "Chimerica". US and Chinese economy need each other. Lets look at bigger things like "US debt financing". Compared to that the PV "war" is just a stupid political game play.

Dumb folks think "now we've shown them who we are" ... well just go ahead and buy expensive crappy US PV panels.
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Old 18-11-2012, 21:17   #65
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Re: PV market is shut off to China

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Jesus Christ .... seems nobody here heard of "Chimerica". US and Chinese economy need each other. Lets look at bigger things like "US debt financing". Compared to that the PV "war" is just a stupid political game play.

Dumb folks think "now we've shown them who we are" ... well just go ahead and buy expensive crappy US PV panels.
I get the feeling your one of those soon to be out of the "from China to US" solar market..Dumb folks think"Chimerica" is a word...China has been opened to the outside world since aprox.1972,how did we land a man on the moon without them?...They have put people in outer space though! 40 years after Russia and the USA did it! We dont need them, we just want to open there markets to our products !..
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Old 18-11-2012, 21:39   #66
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Re: PV market is shut off to China

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I get the feeling your one of those soon to be out of the "from China to US" solar market..Dumb folks think"Chimerica" is a word...China has been opened to the outside world since aprox.1972,how did we land a man on the moon without them?...They have put people in outer space though! 40 years after Russia and the USA did it! We dont need them, we just want to open there markets to our products !..
Why should they buy expensive crappy US products ? They can do the crappy stuff themselves and do it much CHEAPER !

Yea ... US (may be) landed on the moon - you know what. Nobody gives a **** about it.

Seriously you are dreaming of the olden days - but you know that was the past and that won't give you back any jobs. You gotta look ahead - and get competitive again.

But folks like you are preventing that - because they are living in the past ! They are bad mouthing and blaming others.

Just look at Nanosolar and Solyndra. Big hype, super smart high tech but just not competitive enough besides it's still in a stage of "garage experiment". And don't get me with "Chinese Solar supported by Chinese gov". Solyndra got the tax payer's cash and worse it basically cheated the gov resp. YOU as the tax payer.

Well ... go ahead and yell around. Some ppl just cant connect the dots.

PS: And the dumbest thing of all is - panels will become more expensive again. Well do you think ppl will continue to install PV systems ? A big NO - and that will hurt the other 50% of the PV business - those guys who install the PV systems (which are all honest US companies) !
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Old 18-11-2012, 23:25   #67
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Re: PV market is shut off to China

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Why should they buy expensive crappy US products ? They can do the crappy stuff themselves and do it much CHEAPER !

Yea ... US (may be) landed on the moon - you know what. Nobody gives a **** about it.

Seriously you are dreaming of the olden days - but you know that was the past and that won't give you back any jobs. You gotta look ahead - and get competitive again.

But folks like you are preventing that - because they are living in the past ! They are bad mouthing and blaming others.

Just look at Nanosolar and Solyndra. Big hype, super smart high tech but just not competitive enough besides it's still in a stage of "garage experiment". And don't get me with "Chinese Solar supported by Chinese gov". Solyndra got the tax payer's cash and worse it basically cheated the gov resp. YOU as the tax payer.

Well ... go ahead and yell around. Some ppl just cant connect the dots.

PS: And the dumbest thing of all is - panels will become more expensive again. Well do you think ppl will continue to install PV systems ? A big NO - and that will hurt the other 50% of the PV business - those guys who install the PV systems (which are all honest US companies) !
If no one gives a darn ,then why is China spending billions to do the same thing we did 50 yrs. ago...? Yea the US gov gave money to some solar start ups and when they could not compete with chinese gov. subsides they threw in the towel rather than allowing them to go farther by "dumping " it on the world.."America become competetive again"? Last time I looked America and Europe were still leading the world in "all high technology fields",so much so Russia and China want to know why we wont export such technology to them, instead of the low tech stuff we have been sending...America will never go back to the "good ol days" because the "good ol days" are in the future not the past,we are busy right now with the next "greatest generation"...
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Old 19-11-2012, 00:35   #68
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Re: PV market is shut off to China

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If no one gives a darn ,then why is China spending billions to do the same thing we did 50 yrs. ago...? Yea the US gov gave money to some solar start ups and when they could not compete with chinese gov. subsides they threw in the towel rather than allowing them to go farther by "dumping " it on the world.."America become competetive again"? Last time I looked America and Europe were still leading the world in "all high technology fields",so much so Russia and China want to know why we wont export such technology to them, instead of the low tech stuff we have been sending...America will never go back to the "good ol days" because the "good ol days" are in the future not the past,we are busy right now with the next "greatest generation"...
1. Solar : All these failed Startups betted on thinfilm technology based on rare materials (how stupid !). They claimed to produce panels at grid parity which is $1 per watt. Well guess what - they just failed to do so. This has NOTHING to do with cheap Chinese panels. Instead of risking to apply non-proven high tech, Chinese companies made production of wafer based panels more efficient which let to almost grid parity prices. The US tried to make the panels cheap but failed. The Chinese succeeded. Bottom line - the US companies did just not have the technology advance to beat the Chinese ... I am so sorry.

But you know what - I would laugh if China would threaten to stop buying US and EU debt if they are not removing the tariff.

2. Space : Yea ... US failed with Space Shuttle program and must rely on some nerdy space rocket hobbyists ... very embarassing. But lets talk a little bit about the next big step mankind has to do. And that is to conquer the space. Well I guess the US is just OUT OF CASH to join that adventure. China will have the resources to do that and also enough ppl which are crazy to do that. Also at some point the 1-child rule will be overthrown. And with billions of Chinese, I bet they will a) kick the ass of the US military when it comes to conquer resources like oil and b) have enough resources to get a large space station if not a moon base running.

3. Dude ... are you one of these cowboys somewhere in the backyard with just one TV channel ? Get a break and inform yourself what's going on. US not having solved the fiscal cliff, having a 16T debt which is mainly hold by the far east ... and getting f*** by the gov lying to the ppl, by the banks ripping of the tax payers, by large companies laying off ppl and moving jobs outside - well, I wish I'd have your optimism ...
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Old 19-11-2012, 03:56   #69
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Re: PV market is shut off to China

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2. Space : Yea ... US failed with Space Shuttle program and must rely on some nerdy space rocket hobbyists ... very embarassing.
Although not intentional I do think that the current private sector approach is a great leap forward - and once developed will give the US a big advantage both by freeing up resources (cash and personnel) and by creating technologies that can then be used in NASA programmes.

Of course will always need a Government led effort (NASA etc) to operate on the frontier because a private sector company will never have the resouces to spend (or to risk!).

Although I appreciate that the Virgin Spacecraft does not go into Space Shuttle orbit (and would best fit your "Hobbyists" label) - nonetheless I love the thinking on how the re-entry works (simply comes down like a badminton shuttlecock ) and the fact that the technology to do what it does was available in 1970's (albeit back then was cutting edge / way too expensive for the project or secret!)..........but it just goes to show how far ingenuity can go - and one of the best drivers for that is not having an unlimited budget!

IMO a moonbase is in reach of the Private Sector.........
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Old 19-11-2012, 04:38   #70
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Without the Chinese manufacturers most of us could not participate in this forum as we could not afford a US or European made computer. The chart plotters or instruments would be out of reach for the average cruiser as well.
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Old 19-11-2012, 05:23   #71
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Re: PV market is shut off to China

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Without the Chinese manufacturers most of us could not participate in this forum as we could not afford a US or European made computer. The chart plotters or instruments would be out of reach for the average cruiser as well.
Bingo!

And nor would we have the boatie style shoes, T-shirts, hats and paraphernalia to impress the chicks at the bar with.
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Old 19-11-2012, 08:29   #72
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Re: PV market is shut off to China

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1. Solar : All these failed Startups betted on thinfilm technology based on rare materials (how stupid !). They claimed to produce panels at grid parity which is $1 per watt. Well guess what - they just failed to do so. This has NOTHING to do with cheap Chinese panels. Instead of risking to apply non-proven high tech, Chinese companies made production of wafer based panels more efficient which let to almost grid parity prices. The US tried to make the panels cheap but failed. The Chinese succeeded. Bottom line - the US companies did just not have the technology advance to beat the Chinese ... I am so sorry.

But you know what - I would laugh if China would threaten to stop buying US and EU debt if they are not removing the tariff.

2. Space : Yea ... US failed with Space Shuttle program and must rely on some nerdy space rocket hobbyists ... very embarassing. But lets talk a little bit about the next big step mankind has to do. And that is to conquer the space. Well I guess the US is just OUT OF CASH to join that adventure. China will have the resources to do that and also enough ppl which are crazy to do that. Also at some point the 1-child rule will be overthrown. And with billions of Chinese, I bet they will a) kick the ass of the US military when it comes to conquer resources like oil and b) have enough resources to get a large space station if not a moon base running.

3. Dude ... are you one of these cowboys somewhere in the backyard with just one TV channel ? Get a break and inform yourself what's going on. US not having solved the fiscal cliff, having a 16T debt which is mainly hold by the far east ... and getting f*** by the gov lying to the ppl, by the banks ripping of the tax payers, by large companies laying off ppl and moving jobs outside - well, I wish I'd have your optimism ...
Dude are you one of those wantabe Gangnam style cowboys that think China can do what the west has already done many years ago..They copy everthing,they do not invent anything! China has no jet engine tecnology,they buy all of there engines for all of their aircraft from Russia,everything they build is a copy of someone elses designs,they cant even power their own aircraft with china made engines ,once again,"comparing china to the west is like comparing an ox-cart to a Cadillac"...They are on the bottom rung of the world wide tech. ladder...this is true ,no one says I want to be like China! We will all see very soon what China represents as far as advanced technology and human rights...Dont belive me ,just ask someone from Tibet!..
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Old 19-11-2012, 08:50   #73
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Re: PV market is shut off to China

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Without the Chinese manufacturers most of us could not participate in this forum as we could not afford a US or European made computer. The chart plotters or instruments would be out of reach for the average cruiser as well.
I don't think the choices should be limited to...with or without the Chinese. The issue is their unfair trade practices. If they played nice, there would not be tariffs levied on them. It is a known fact that they deflate their currency and sell below cost to put other manufacturers out of business.
Sure, I'm grateful for there inexpensive products but not so pleased seeing people layed off because of their greed.
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Old 19-11-2012, 09:30   #74
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Re: PV market is shut off to China

flirting too close to politics there guys.... please dial it back
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Old 19-11-2012, 09:44   #75
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Re: PV market is shut off to China

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Sure, I'm grateful for there inexpensive products but not so pleased seeing people layed off because of their greed.
Who's greed?
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