PSOC definition

[evm1024]

Originally Posted by tanglewood

Well, I am/was an engineer too and I don't see any difference.


I guess next time I say PSOC, I'll have to check to see if the other person winks once or winks twice so I know which set of extra hidden meaning should be assumed behind the simple statement "partial state of charge".


It's no wonder so many of these discussion just go around and around in circles.

I have no issues with saying (as you note) "partial state of charge". It is a simple statement and lives as it stands.

The issue is that PSOC does not mean "partial state of charge". It has more meaning and there are no winks needed to understand that.

PSOC is a mode of operating a battery where it is specifically intended to not be fully charged for some number of cycles. Or a mode of operation where by some conditions or choices the battery ends operating without being fully charged between discharge/charge cycles.

[john61ct]

> provided the links to show it was false

As I very clearly stated,

(why did you not absorb this? are you even bothering to read what I wrote)

what you linked to, titled "reconditioning"

may be Full River's **substitute** for equalizing, may be positioned as "just as good", but it is not actually equalizing

is not standard equalizing / conditioning

which is going **higher** than normal voltage, and holding it for longer

Equalizing / conditioning also does **not** involve a deep discharge like that.

[john61ct]

> You also said that ONLY Lifeline batteries recommended equalization

Yes that is still true as well.

I guess you did not bother googling all the corroborating statements from Maine Sail and others.

Ask tech support at Full River, they agree as well.

This is so stupid, grrrrr. . .

[tanglewood]

Originally Posted by evm1024

I have no issues with saying (as you note) "partial state of charge". It is a simple statement and lives as it stands.

The issue is that PSOC does not mean "partial state of charge". It has more meaning and there are no winks needed to understand that.

PSOC is a mode of operating a battery where it is specifically intended to not be fully charged for some number of cycles. Or a mode of operation where by some conditions or choices the battery ends operating without being fully charged between discharge/charge cycles.

Well, I guess we will just have to agree to disagree. To me, PSOC is an acronym that stands for Partial State of Charge. Nothing more, nothing less. If one wants to describe some of the consequences or behaviors of batteries when operated at partial states of charge in different ways, then say that.

[john61ct]

> what separates conditioning from normal charging is the duration at which the target conditioning voltage is held.

Yes but a higher **voltage** as well.

The FR doc you linked to specs the same voltages recommended for daily charging.

That major departure from the industry standard definition of conditioning is required by the AGM makers other than Lifeline

because of their discovery many years ago now that is is harmful to longevity.

[evm1024]

Originally Posted by tanglewood

Well, I guess we will just have to agree to disagree. To me, PSOC is an acronym that stands for Partial State of Charge. Nothing more, nothing less. If one wants to describe some of the consequences or behaviors of batteries when operated at partial states of charge in different ways, then say that.

Good enough for me. Everyone knows my view and can choose for themselves.

Regards!

[Delfin]

Originally Posted by john61ct

What I stated can easily be found in all the mobile DC forums by googling. It is up to those contradicting the consensus to cite a source, a single example will prove their side. Impossible to prove a negative anyway.

But John, I have posted a number of examples that contradict a "consensus" that appears only to exist in your mind. But here's another, from Northstar:

2.4.2 Equalizing charge
Equalizing charge has the purpose of equalizing all the batteries or cells in a string by applying a higher voltage for a limited time. Batteries can become unbalanced i.e. the cells have slightly deviating voltages due to various reasons: cell differences, exposed to different temperatures for instance. The equalizing charge shall commence first when the batteries have been
charged by normal means. The voltage should be the same as for the boost and same temperature controls shall be applied. Batteries shall be charged for 12-24 hours. It shall be limited to the boost voltage level and shall not
be longer than 16 hours.


You can find this language on page 5 of their manual here.

Given this clear language, are you willing to back off this statement, since you have been "shown" more than once that it is not correct:

Originally Posted by john61ct

This is honestly funny.

Show me.

As with any batt, for rebalancing purposes, or just to mix things up if you notice performance slagginf, you could bump up a bit to 14.8V or even 15V at lower currents.

But nothing like a real conditioning cycle.

Lifeline as I said are the only AGM that spec that.

[Delfin]

Originally Posted by john61ct

> what separates conditioning from normal charging is the duration at which the target conditioning voltage is held.

Yes but a higher **voltage** as well.

Please read what is posted as proof that you are mistaken. That way, you can avoid making statements like this and digging yourself into a deeper hole. Odyssey refers to "Conditioning" in their manual here, at precisely the same voltage as their normal charge voltage, not at a higher voltage as you now assert.

As I have noted, different AGM manufacturers recommend different voltages and procedures for equalizing/conditioning their batteries. But what is a common fact is that your assertion that ONLY Lifeline recommends equalization is clearly false, yet you refuse to acknowledge it. Weird, but I will leave you to your opinions. Hopefully others who pay attention to what you write will do their verification, since that appears necessary.

[john61ct]

Exactly my point.

What these three makers are perhaps calling equalizing / conditioning , but at their regular charging voltages rather than higher

is not what the industry has called equalizing / conditioning for many decades.

Only Lifeline's specs are in line with that industry standard definition.

At this point I think we all fully understand the issues, just debating semantics.

If the topic comes up in another thread, let's remember to just link back to here so as not to have to re-litigate it all over again from scratch 8-)

[john61ct]

I wonder how many have actually called tech support and just refrain from acknowledging it since the conversation didn't support the barrow they're pushing?

Ah, human nature 8-)

[StuM]

Originally Posted by evm1024

I have no issues with saying (as you note) "partial state of charge". It is a simple statement and lives as it stands.

The issue is that PSOC does not mean "partial state of charge".

Yes it does. That's what the letters represent

It has more meaning and there are no winks needed to understand that.

PSOC is a mode of operating a battery where it is specifically intended to not be fully charged for some number of cycles. Or a mode of operation where by some conditions or choices the battery ends operating without being fully charged between discharge/charge cycles.

"When I use a word," Humpty Dumpty said, in rather a scornful tone, "it means just what I choose it to mean—neither more nor less." "The question is," said Alice, "whether you can make words mean so many different things." "The question is," said Humpty Dumpty, "which is to be master—that's all."

[evm1024]

Ages ago when I was just starting in DOD contracting I was cautioned by an old hat to be careful in the words I used.

As an example he told me to imagine saying to a solder to secure that building.

If I told it to an Army solder they would set up a guard around the building making sure that no one unauthorized was allowed to enter.

If I told it to a Navy sailor they would tie it down and make sure that it did roll around.

The Marines would storm the building and take it by force.

And the Air Force would rent it with a buy option.

Understanding the meaning of words in context is usually more than just the literal meaning of the words.

Oh by the way - how many reading this thought that the old hat I spoke of was an actual hat?

[evm1024]

PSOC


Also found in: Wikipedia.

Acronym Definition
PSOC Programmable System-On-Chip
PSoC Partial State of Charge
PSoC Philharmonic Society of Orange County (Irvine, CA)
PSOC Preliminary System Operational Concept
PSOC Power System Operation and Control (electrical engineering)
PSOC Potential Sale of the Company Agreement

[evm1024]

https://www.solarnovus.com/battery-u...rge_N7641.html

Battery Update: Carbon resolves partial state of charge

...Many find that deep-cycle batteries used in renewable energy (RE) applications never reach their expected cycle life, but they do not know why. The answer is simple - the occurrence of Partial State of Charge (PSOC) in which the batteries are often never fully recharged on a regular basis....

....While PSOC cycling will continue to be an issue in renewable energy applications, there are now special carbon forumulas available from battery manufacturers to address the challenge of PSOC. Deep-cycle batteries offering carbon additives can provide higher conductivity, reduced sulfation and improved opportunity charging, as well as offer up to 15% improved battery cycle life in PSOC applications versus batteries that do not contain carbon additives.

And on to Trojans site:

https://www.trojanbattery.com/new-pr.../smart-carbon/

[evm1024]

Clearly at least when talking about lead acid batteries the battery will be in a partial state of charge (as in not fully charged) when not at 100% SOC.

So as soon as you take a FLA off the charger and a little self discharge happens or even a minor draw down the battery will be at a partial state of charge.

To me it really does not make any sense to say that the acronym PSOC means that he battery is not fully charged.

It does however make a lot of sense to use PSOC as an acronym the indicated that the battery is being cycles in partial state of charge mode.

Ack! I'm being drawn back in.