PSOC definition

[john61ct]

I suspect their marketing department does not want to baldly state

Full River batteries should not be equalized

but that is indeed the case. If they thought it was a good idea, they would spell out the protocol, perhaps different for different models

just like every quality manufacturer in the US market that allows equalizing.

Go ahead, contact their tech support and ask, they will confirm I am sure.

Certainly if you ask in a neutral way anyway

"Should your batts be equalized like Lifelines?"

If you lead by saying "I really want to equalize, will that damage them?" then I suppose they might humour you.

The Surrette/Rolls AGM line is actually Full River, so give them a call too, and ask in the same way.

Please do report back.

As can anyone still wondering at all about this **ridiculously long** strung-out waste of time debate.

Lifeline is the only quality AGM sold in the NA market that still recommend s conditiining, full stop.

[Delfin]

Originally Posted by john61ct

I suspect their marketing department does not want to baldly state

Full River batteries should not be equalized

but that is indeed the case. If they thought it was a good idea, they would spell out the protocol, perhaps different for different models

just like every quality manufacturer in the US market that allows equalizing.

Go ahead, contact their tech support and ask, they will confirm I am sure.

Certainly if you ask in a neutral way anyway

"Should your batts be equalized like Lifelines?"

If you lead by saying "I really want to equalize, will that damage them?" then I suppose they might humour you.

The Surrette/Rolls AGM line is actually Full River, so give them a call too, and ask in the same way.

Please do report back.

As can anyone still wondering at all about this **ridiculously long** strung-out waste of time debate.

Lifeline is the only quality AGM sold in the NA market that still recommend s conditiining, full stop.

John, you have been asked to support some of the statements you have made regarding battery systems, but never seem to be able to do so. Now you want me to go beyond the clear wording of Fullriver's datasheet in order to come to an interpretation that suits a statement you made that was clearly an exaggeration, at a minimum, or simply wrong. Equalization of any battery is unnecessary if you spend 8 hours, as Fullriver suggests, reaching 100% SoC. Fullriver simply states that, but in the event that you can't spend 8 hours recharging to 2% CAR, then equalization of their batteries is not barred by their recommendations, as you stated was a "fact".

To suggest that the "marketing department" doesn't want to "baldly state" their batteries don't need equalization begs the question - if they aren't stating it, how do you know it is a "fact" as you stated? What do you know that they manufacturer doesn't, and if you do know something, could you please cite your source of information as you have repeatedly been requested to do?

Good point on using Rolls as a source of information for equalization of Fullriver batteries. Here is what Rolls says on the subject:

"Equalization - Corrective
A corrective equalization should be performed if symptoms arise where running a generator is more frequent (low battery capacity) or the battery bank will no longer maintain a charge. " - Corrective Equalization & Instructions : Technical Support Desk

[john61ct]

I am really having a hard time with the Be Nice rule here.

The fact is, I know 100% certain I am right.

This is a very commonly known fact.

That Full River discussion is wrt equalization in general, their main biz is their FLA, 99% of their revenue.

Just make the calls.

[Delfin]

Originally Posted by john61ct

I am really having a hard time with the Be Nice rule here.

The fact is, I know 100% certain I am right.

This is a very commonly known fact.

That Full River discussion is wrt equalization in general, their main biz is their FLA, 99% of their revenue.

Just make the calls.

John, if it is a commonly known fact, surely you should be able to post a citation? The moon is tidally locked, and I state that as a fact. If you want citations, I can provide them. Can you for your statement of fact?

p.s. Asking for you to support your statements of fact in the face of information that contradicts them isn't an affront to "being nice". It is just an attempt to qualify statements that others may read and assume are correct, when on their face, appear to be false. Perhaps you could call Fullriver support and ask them this question:

"If I am unable to consistently fully recharge my batteries as you recommend, will a proper equalization as described by Rolls damage them, or help them?" Although Rolls seems to think this is a valid operation, maybe Fullriver will disagree and you can clarify the issue for all of us.

You can report back what they say. Doesn't that seem reasonable?

[evm1024]

Who was it, Sam Clemens? Who said that even a single word can make all the difference. There is a big difference between being hit by lightning and a lightning bug.

Acronyms, jargon and domain specific words have a great power to make things clear. To those who speak the language.

I could say that I raised my spinnaker and pulled the pole down to deck level. And thus I was flying an asymmetrical spinnaker.

But that would not be correct.

I could say that I flew my symmetrical spinnaker with an asymmetrical shape.

And that would be correct.

You might say that you left your batteries in a partial state of charge.

And that would be correct.

You might say that you left your batteries in PSOC.

But that would not be correct.

You might say that it is only a matter of choice and convention.

OK, I'll let you know the next time I fly my asymmetrical spinnaker.



N.B. I'm not overly worried about it. I often unfurl my 130% jib.

[StuM]

Originally Posted by evm1024

You might say that you left your batteries in a partial state of charge.
And that would be correct.
You might say that you left your batteries in PSOC.
But that would not be correct.

I really can't see any difference between those two statements. Either they are both correct or they are both incorrect.


Quite simply PSOC is the acronym (pee-sock) or initialism (pee-ess-oh-sea) ,depending on how you choose to say it, of "Partial State Of Charge". End of story.

[evm1024]

Originally Posted by StuM

I really can't see any difference between those two statements. Either they are both correct or they are both incorrect.


Quite simply PSOC is the acronym (pee-sock) or initialism (pee-ess-oh-sea) ,depending on how you choose to say it, of "Partial State Of Charge". End of story.

As an engineer I see a huge difference. My wife not so much. But then again she is a molecular biologist and if I screw up the terms of her profession - look out!.

We are working on understanding and engineering LiFePO4 systems for our boats. Thus I think we should use the terms correctly.

How do you like the shape of my asymmetrical spinnaker?

[john61ct]

Again, I have spoken and emailed at length dozens of times on this topic with engineer-level experts on these issues.

Including this specific one, with all five AGM vendors' higher-level tech support.

Including with Bruce Essig at Enersys a few years back when they went from recommending conditioning to not after discovering the longevity problems.

What I stated can easily be found in all the mobile DC forums by googling. It is up to those contradicting the consensus to cite a source, a single example will prove their side. Impossible to prove a negative anyway.

Anyone wanting to equalize

if it is not spelled out in their published user docs for your model,

which is the case here, as pointed out,

should contact the manufacturer to get their specs for the proper equalization procedure.

When you do so you will get your answer.

Sheesh what a waste of time.

[Delfin]

Originally Posted by john61ct

Including with Bruce Essig at Enersys a few years back when they went from recommending conditioning to not after discovering the longevity problems.


Sheesh what a waste of time.

You're right. It is a waste of time trying to pin you down to the source of your statements, I guess because they don't exist.

Regarding Enersys and Odyssey batteries, they recommend equalization, which they call "conditioning" when appropriate, at 14.7 - 14.9 vdc. Or at least they did as of March 2016, which would be less than "a few years back":

http://www.odysseybattery.com/docume..._Procedure.pdf

[john61ct]

I guess you didn't actually read that?

That "reconditioning" protocol is within the specs for a normal charge cycle for Odyssey.

The difference is the deep **discharge** part, similar to what is required with any lead bank for proper commissioning, before starting the initial breaking in period, or when load testing for SoH.

The equalizing / conditioning protocols that FLA makers and (out of AGM only) Lifeline spec is

going much **higher** voltage at the top end, and holding much longer than usual.

[sailinglegend]

Originally Posted by Delfin

You're right. It is a waste of time trying to pin you down to the source of your statements, I guess because they don't exist....

+1 +1 +1 +1 ...................

[tanglewood]

Originally Posted by evm1024

As an engineer I see a huge difference. My wife not so much. But then again she is a molecular biologist and if I screw up the terms of her profession - look out!.

We are working on understanding and engineering LiFePO4 systems for our boats. Thus I think we should use the terms correctly.

How do you like the shape of my asymmetrical spinnaker?

Well, I am/was an engineer too and I don't see any difference.


I guess next time I say PSOC, I'll have to check to see if the other person winks once or winks twice so I know which set of extra hidden meaning should be assumed behind the simple statement "partial state of charge".


It's no wonder so many of these discussion just go around and around in circles.

[Delfin]

Originally Posted by john61ct

I guess you didn't actually read that?

That "reconditioning" protocol is within the specs for a normal charge cycle for Odyssey.

The difference is the deep **discharge** part, similar to what is required with any lead bank for proper commissioning, before starting the initial breaking in period, or when load testing for SoH.

The equalizing / conditioning protocols that FLA makers and (out of AGM only) Lifeline spec is

going much **higher** voltage at the top end, and holding much longer than usual.

John, you made a statement that it was a "fact" that Fullriver did not recommend equalization. I suggested you back off that statement since it was false, and provided the links to show it was false. You also said that ONLY Lifeline batteries recommended equalization, which is also false. Now you want to conflate bulk/absorption charge voltage during normal charging with equalization, which with sealed batteries is called a "Conditioning charge". Conditioning is not the same as normal charging, and Odyssey makes it clear when it might be used. The difference between the two operations is explained by Lifeline here on page 21:

"Note: Some chargers use the term Equalizing Charge instead of Conditioning Charge."

You are quite correct that different mfg suggest different voltages for conditioning - some higher and some lower - but what separates conditioning from normal charging is the duration at which the target conditioning voltage is held. In Odyssey's case, they want you to back off that voltage when the battery gets to 125 degrees, which is hardly part of a normal charge cycle. In other words, since every sealed LA battery manufacturer recognizes the potential need for equalizing/conditioning, your entire argument is based on nothing more than your apparently ill-informed opinion. Which is fine. We all have opinions, some of which are nonsense. However, when you present your opinions as transcendental and immutable facts, you do a disservice to other forumites who might confuse your opinion with actual knowledge.

[Delfin]

Originally Posted by tanglewood

Well, I am/was an engineer too and I don't see any difference.


I guess next time I say PSOC, I'll have to check to see if the other person winks once or winks twice so I know which set of extra hidden meaning should be assumed behind the simple statement "partial state of charge".


It's no wonder so many of these discussion just go around and around in circles.

Define circle.

[john61ct]

Originally Posted by Delfin

John, you made a statement that it was a "fact" that Fullriver did not recommend equalization.

yes that is the case.

Have you called them yet? Techs are standing by right now.

If you haven't yet done so, why not? Take maybe ten minutes top instead of the many hours your delusions are wasting for hundreds of people.

Anyone reading this can do so, please pick up the phone, get the name of the one you speak with and report what they say back here.