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Old 03-04-2014, 08:51   #16
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Re: Powering a 110v Boat in a 220v Marina

Quote:
Originally Posted by GordMay View Post
Using a 60Hz motor in 50Hz duty:
It will turn 20% slower.
Cooling will drop dramatically.
The load's horsepower requirements will drop, possibly dramatically.
V/f will increase possibly causing a large increase in current draw.

More ➥ Motors: Changing between a 50 and 60Hz supply. - Electric motors, generators & controls engineering FAQ - Eng-Tips
Gord, that's a great link, thanks! As I read through it, it seems to me that a 50hz motor (or air con unit) would have less issues running on 60hz than the opposite set up. Could someone with more expertise than I chime in?

So that leads me to another question... Even if the air con unit isn't rated for both frequencies, how comfortable are people with running the air con on the wrong frequency? Do you do anything differently when on the wrong frequency (the article suggests lowering the voltage on a 60hz motor to keep the Voltage/frequency ratio in balance), or do nothing and "hope for the best"?
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Old 03-04-2014, 08:57   #17
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Re: Powering a 110v Boat in a 220v Marina

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Originally Posted by StarryHorizons View Post
Just so I can be sure I'm following you correctly with your genset, are you using the DC genset to charge the batteries and then using your inverter to provide AC power to run your air con?...
Correct.

Quote:
Originally Posted by StarryHorizons View Post
As for using the inverter, how exactly do you have the inverter and charger set up to work in concert to provide AC power when on shorepower? ......
Victron and Mastervolt chargers have the option of a "Power Assist" mode inverter. So all AC power goes through the Inverter/Charger which synchronise itself to the frequency and phase of the shorepower. So in the UK 16 amps @ 240v comes from the shorepower and through the Victron, and ABOVE that the batteries can supply an extra 8 amps AC. As soon as this extra AC load stops the inverter charger goes back to charging the batteries.

Victron have a huge book you can download to explain this.
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Old 03-04-2014, 10:27   #18
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Re: Powering a 110v Boat in a 220v Marina

If you have a 50 Hz 220 volt air conditioner, get an isolation transformer that steps up from 115 volts to 220. The motor in the air conditioner will run 20% faster, but will not burn out the motor because 50 Hz requires a heavier motor, heavier windings. An isolation transformer also prevents electrolysis, a severe kind of corrosion that occurs in marinas where dissimilar metals, say aluminum and steel, exist on different boats. The steel corrodes the aluminum through the ground wire that is in the connection for the marina power. The ground is needed because an electrical failure where a hot wire touches metal on the boat can put 115 volts in the water causing someone in the water near the boat to drown. An isolation transformer with 115 volt and 220 volt input would protect a boat for both the 115 volt and 220 volt marina. Also, make sure the isolation transformer works on both 50 Hz and 60 Hz. Also note that if you try to rewire the boat from 220 volt to 115 volts appliances, that the wiring will most likely be sized for 220 volts where the amps are half that found in 115 volt setup. If you really want 60 Hz 115 volts from 220 volt 50 Hz, you can do this:

Power line isolators & power line conditioners

Georator build part

Motor Generators, Motor Generator From Visicomm Industries

The above converters also work like isolation transformers if the motor and generator are electrically not connected, that is insulated from each other.
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Old 03-04-2014, 10:47   #19
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Re: Powering a 110v Boat in a 220v Marina

1) How much 50hz marina 'living' will you be doing while on the boat? My point is if that's <5% of your time, forget AC while in a 50hz marina, not worth the added cost for the small amount of time. If storing the boat in a 50hz marina, use a small dehumidifier and don't use the AC.

2) You can certainly put a 50A/240V US shore power on your boat vs. a 30A/120V shore power. Then with an isolation transformer (recommend gear anyway), you get 115V for those appliances that require such when on a 230V shore power. Just get appliances that work on both frequencies.
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Old 05-04-2014, 10:55   #20
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Re: Powering a 110v Boat in a 220v Marina

A followup on my previous comments which were typed on my cell phone and so getting all of the details down was painful...

Botany Bay is a British built Oyster 55 with a British (mostly European) power system built in 1990. In this time period RCDs (Residual Current Devices) which trip out at 30ma of imbalance between the neutral and hot were either required or soon to be required. The RCD will trip both the neutral and hot line. Unfortunately the circuit breaker panel is single pole. So, if the neutral is not close to ground and the boat has shore power applied there is voltage on the neutral bus for the whole boat and specifically that piece of equipment.

At some time in the boat's history in the US neutral was connected to one leg of 240 split phase and hot was connected to the other leg of split phase. An autotransformer was connected between the two legs to provide 120V power and a complicated switching arrangement installed to connect various things to another.

Now enter a 208V dock in the US, the output of the 120V circuit now drops to 104 which resulted in various issues (not any permanent 120v equipment on board).

As for the European equipment on board:
Air Conditioners: Fans run faster but with less force due to lower voltage
Condenser tends to ice up (may be low refrigerant but it
is both systems so unlikely)
Refrigerator (Gruenart): The compressor is running faster but may be lugging
a bit, seems happier on 50hz (Generator)
Battery Charger: on 208V the output is significantly less (1997 charger)
Microwave: Works great on 230V 50hz, barely heats water on 208V 60hz
Washing Machine: Motor lugs on 60hz

Rebuilt system this winter as follows:
Input breaker allows selection of one of the following inputs from 240 50A:
Line 1-Neutral (120V)
Line 2-Neutral (120V)
Line 1 - Line 2 (208/230/240V)

This output runs as two lines and a ground to a Victron Automatic Input Adjusting 3.6kva isolation transformer jumpered on the output for 230V
If up to 32A of 120V is applied output is 16A ot 240V
If up to 16A of 240V is applied output is 16A at 240V
If up to 16A of 230V is applied output is 16A at 230V
If up to 16A of 208V is applied output is 16A at 208V

The output of the Isolation transformer runs into two devices:
100A @ 28V Victron Skylla-i Battery charger (180V - 260V capable)
8KVA Victron Quattro 230V with 200A @ 28V charger
Priority Input: Westerbeke 6kva @ 230V/50hz
Secondary Input: Output of shore power (208V/230V/240V 50/60hz)
Always On Output: Ships 230V Bus 1
Only On when Generator or Shore available: Ships 230V Bus 2
There is a low voltage control switch in the nav station which enables EITHER the Skylla-I battery charger OR the 8KVA Quattro shore power input
Quattro Inverter is programmed for 230V 50hz, but will accept 200v-250v 50/60hz power. However, this is programmable input limits so I can restrict it to a specific frequency or voltage range.

Thus, if I need to be running 230V 50hz specific equipment and the total load is under about 6kva I can run that off the inverter. If the loads are larger and need 50hz, turning on the generator (which the Quattro will phase match with and support) provides 5kva additional long term so about 11kva of 230V 50hz power so long as the average draw does not exceed the 5kva from the generator as the batteries are being charged when the loads are low but pulled from during peak demand. In addition, in this mode the shore power can feed the battery charger and provide almost 3kva of DC power for a long term average load of as much as 8kva without depleting the batteries.

If 60hz power is acceptable for the equipment being run then the isolation transformer feeds the inverter directly providing 3.6kva of average power which the inverter can supplement to an additional 8kva surge (almost 12kva) and motor starting of almost twice that.

I am planning on a frequency sensing relay on one of the circuits to allow for equipment which REALLY does not like 60hz power but at the moment nothing will be damaged by 60hz.

How is the system working, at this point very well. Finished the primary feed wiring two weeks ago. The Skylla-I charger is very quick to respond to load changes. When the inverter starts pulling power (as much as 100A) the charger reacts quickly enough that it does not come out of "Storage" mode which is a slightly lower form of "float" mode. (Charger has the traditional "bulk", "Absorption", "Float", and the additional "Storage" modes) and the voltage stays within a tenth of a volt of where it was with no load so long as the charger can keep up.

I am replumbing the raw water system at the moment and so should have the fridge compressor and air conditioners up this weekend.

Overall, this system seems to be working well, if anyone has questions about the system I am happy to discuss.




Quote:
Originally Posted by botanybay View Post
Having much the same problem in reverse (50 hz 230v boat in us marina as a live aboard) I have chased many of these options.

My air conditioner and fridge compressors are rated for 50/60 hz operation but sound happier on 50hz.

I found references that the 230v wabesto air conditioners are rated for 50/60 operation. There are many more options in 230/240 volt equipment which is multi frequency.

Washer/Dryers and microwaves are notoriously frequency sensitive.

I went with the following

3.6 kva isolation transformer auto input and programmes for 230/240 output.
100 amp 24v charger (skylla-i from victron)
8kva inverter/charger (quattro from victron)

I mostly run into the battery charger and make power from dc
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Old 05-04-2014, 13:38   #21
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Re: Powering a 110v Boat in a 220v Marina

Our boat is set up with an isolation transformer. 220 50 amp from the shore power primary. Secondary is two 110 taps and a common neutral center tap. The shore power neutral does not connect to the boat.

The secondary is then two 110 legs. If you need 220 you connect across the 110 legs. The two 110 legs feed two separate 110 legs on the AC panel. The only issue is connecting to backwater marinas with ONLY 110 on the dock. In this case I bypass the transformer. I have a 30 amp 110 port on the hull for this. In most cases, the dock pedestals are wired 220 and split the 220 to feed two 110 sockets. I have a Y combiner cord to make 220 of the two 110 sockets.

This doesn't cover all of the 'tower of Babel' possible options you will be handed. As we travel, I collect a variety of adapter cords.
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Old 06-04-2014, 01:50   #22
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Re: Powering a 110v Boat in a 220v Marina

Hello,

I have a 1982 Bertram 46.6 Motor Yacht that I purchased here in Hong Kong.

I use a 7,500w 230v to 110v step down transformer that is dedicated for the air conditioners. The transformer is wired between the "shore 2" inlet and the shore 2 selector switch. The cruise air compressors have run on this for 6 years. The vessel is a live aboard and used in both summer and winter. There had not been any issues at all. These are still the original air conditioners installed in 1982.

On the Shore 1 line, we use a matching step down transformer for the 110v outlets, princess 3 burner stove & oven, and AC powered battery chargers (32v and 12v banks).

As we branch off the shore 1 and have installed 230v circuits throughout the vessel for some local voltage appliances. We have a step up transformer that is between the generator to the Ship 2 (230v circuits).

We had a problem with the new 230v washing machine, so I installed an inverter/charger on the 230v main. The inverter/charger does regulate the power and the washing machine works fine.

Planning and Several Cocktails always help bring a plan together !!!

Although the Bertram will not be taking me to Hawaii any time soon, I am confident she is happy and electrically safe dealing with 230v 50Hz shore power.

Wish we could run everything off the 24v house bank and a dual voltage charger is the only thing needed... But that day is far far way :-)

Alan
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Old 06-04-2014, 02:29   #23
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Re: Powering a 110v Boat in a 220v Marina

When I brought my Sabre 38 to Europe, I converted all to 240v, and after some issues over the different earthing methods(!) all worked fine including the AC which alone ran through a building site type converter, (in truth we didn't use it much).
The Little Harbor we now have is 110v throughout with twin Ac units and a generator.
We have two isolation transformers for shore power. This set up works fine, but Gord May above has pinpointed something which is that the AC definitely works better on generator power as opposed to shore power, which I now realise is the 50/60 issue! However, for the OP, the AC does work well enough for our needs down in Turkey!
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Old 06-04-2014, 03:44   #24
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Re: Powering a 110v Boat in a 220v Marina

Starryhorizons... I had the same issue and concerns as you as my boat was 110v. I contacted the aircon manufacturers (MarineAir, now owned by Dometic) and they said to use a transformer but to step the voltage down to IIRC 90 or 10v, not 110 and also to run the fans only on high speed.

So, my recommendation to you, is speak to the aircon manufacturer as there may be issues you haven't considered.
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Old 06-04-2014, 06:23   #25
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Re: Powering a 110v Boat in a 220v Marina

My two cents do it right and be done with it. Buy the Frequency Converter and move on. You are dropping over $700,000 on the boat if it costs $20 or $30 grand more to make it all work all over the world than so be it. A Rule Goldberg solution will drive you crazy over time. Wire the boat with 50 amp US Power, US outlets and US Air Conditioning and put the converter in. The factory install of Air in that boat uses six units one in each cabin and two in the saloon. We install 110 volt power supplies for the Two Fridges and the freezer on ours as well so that the generator takes over the fridge load when available. Add in the battery charger load and laptops and TV's and all the other plugged in gadgets and you need a 9 kw Genset to make it all work correctly. Make your dealer price it all out and do it right one time and go cruising.
There is a large open area under the starboard bed that with some ventilation added would like fit a converter of the size that you will need.


PS: Don't skimp on the genset install either. If you don't get the factory genset, which I wouldn't I would buy the 9kw Northern Lights. Make sure the exhaust is done just like the factory. Put the vetus water separator muffler in and have the discharge in the starboard hull closet. The water comes out under the boat and exhaust gas just above. Put two inch soundown in the locker and the sound sheild from Northern Lights. Get a rotary electric fuel pump so it doesn't click and use a squirrel cage style blower to lower the dB's as well. Done this way the blower on the saloon air conditioner will be louder than the genset.
Jay
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Old 06-04-2014, 11:41   #26
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Re: Powering a 110v Boat in a 220v Marina

Lots of great advice in this thread which is much appreciated. Life sure would be simplier if there could be one standard for everything!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeannius View Post
Starryhorizons... I had the same issue and concerns as you as my boat was 110v. I contacted the aircon manufacturers (MarineAir, now owned by Dometic) and they said to use a transformer but to step the voltage down to IIRC 90 or 10v, not 110 and also to run the fans only on high speed.

So, my recommendation to you, is speak to the aircon manufacturer as there may be issues you haven't considered.
Jeannius - I've read about this as a possible solution. Did you have to install a separate transformer just to handle the voltage drop for the aircons? I would imagine you don't want to use the main isolation transformer system to drop the voltage for everything.

Also, is the output of your aircons a bit less when running on the lower voltage?
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Old 06-04-2014, 11:49   #27
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Re: Powering a 110v Boat in a 220v Marina

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My two cents do it right and be done with it. Buy the Frequency Converter and move on. You are dropping over $700,000 on the boat if it costs $20 or $30 grand more to make it all work all over the world than so be it. A Rule Goldberg solution will drive you crazy over time. Wire the boat with 50 amp US Power, US outlets and US Air Conditioning and put the converter in. The factory install of Air in that boat uses six units one in each cabin and two in the saloon. We install 110 volt power supplies for the Two Fridges and the freezer on ours as well so that the generator takes over the fridge load when available. Add in the battery charger load and laptops and TV's and all the other plugged in gadgets and you need a 9 kw Genset to make it all work correctly. Make your dealer price it all out and do it right one time and go cruising.
There is a large open area under the starboard bed that with some ventilation added would like fit a converter of the size that you will need.


PS: Don't skimp on the genset install either. If you don't get the factory genset, which I wouldn't I would buy the 9kw Northern Lights. Make sure the exhaust is done just like the factory. Put the vetus water separator muffler in and have the discharge in the starboard hull closet. The water comes out under the boat and exhaust gas just above. Put two inch soundown in the locker and the sound sheild from Northern Lights. Get a rotary electric fuel pump so it doesn't click and use a squirrel cage style blower to lower the dB's as well. Done this way the blower on the saloon air conditioner will be louder than the genset.
Jay
Jay - I've seen some of your posts over in the FP forum and it's clear you have a lot of experience with Helia's so I appreciate you chiming in over here. We're going with the owners version, so I believe there are only 5 aircons from the factory on our boat.

I'm leaning towards the voltage conditioner solution just for simplicity and, as you said, to try and do it right. However, the weight of a conditioner large enough to handle everything gives me pause. They seem to weigh 250lb+! I've found a "mini" 3.5kVA unit that would allow us to run 1 or 2 air cons, but would only weigh 80lbs. That might be an acceptable cost/performance compromise.

Also curious as to why you wouldn't recommend the factory generator? I haven't heard any complaints about the Onan generator on other Helias. Have you heard differently?
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Old 07-04-2014, 05:35   #28
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Re: Powering a 110v Boat in a 220v Marina

Five sounds right for the owners version. As for the weight on a boat of that size 250lbs one way or the other isn't going to be that big a deal. It's like having you fat uncle on board, except it won't talk and you can leave it in the closet so it's not taking up space at the settee. It's not going to have any real effect of performance plus it's not a race boat to start with.

As for the Onan versus Northern Lights. We have a Lipari that has a factory Onan and held high hopes that it would do well. It may be an isolated incident but it has been a nightmare. Lots of loose wires and poorly assembled parts. It is very quiet and the installation from FP is very good. But it's taken us almost six month to work out the gremlins. I am very fond of Northern Lights they just keep going and going.

As for the Helia, the charter company that I work for has Hull 2 Hull 3 and Hull 7 in the fleet so yes I am very familiar with them. I spent almost a week with FP staff at our base working through some initial issues on Hull 2 that have had an effect on current production. The davits, their angle of rise and how the deck is reinforced to support the load of a proper tender.

Hull two I pulled the genset out and reinstalled it as it was done poorly by the sub for the dealer in America not France. The two additional boats we have where done to that spec. We built the floor out further in the genset room, turned the generator for and aft and pushed it up against the bulkhead separating the anchor locker and the generator space. Then insulated the space with 2" sound down and a sound down rubber mat underneath. It turned out really quiet.
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Old 07-04-2014, 06:00   #29
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Re: Powering a 110v Boat in a 220v Marina

I live in the tropics we use fans.......I have aircon installed it came with the boat .. My advice Acclimatise to your location. I would say 80% of the world runs on 220-240 its a lot easier to move and its a lot greener on the global scale of things. 110v is the lowest lethal voltage thats the reason it was adopted but in a modern world .....
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