power generation upfit

[Jammer]

Originally Posted by a64pilot

I have watched enough electric dinghies to know I don’t want that.

I've watched the electric motor threads here and elsewhere including a very detailed writeup by Dylan Winter (of the Keep Turning Left videos) who very much wanted to like his Torqueedo but finally gave up.

The other day we were in Black Point. The island with the Iguana’s was three miles away, to get there with the big boat was five or six because you had to go around a lot of shallow water.
We took the dinghy, 15 min ride, if we had an electric dinghy we would have to have taken the big boat.
We are now in Chicken Harbor (George Town), from our anchorage it’s a little over a mile to the dinghy dock each way, if we had an electric dinghy we would have to anchor close into town, where if there is any boats broken into, it’s close to town.
Every day I watch the people with the little dinghy with their little motors work their way to the dinghy dock, many wear their wet weather gear because they are getting soaked in 80 degree weather, likely they are soaked with sweat as opposed to salt water.

These sorts of vignettes are really helpful for me, not because I'm considering an electric motor, but because I'm considering rowing.

Originally Posted by a64pilot

I will either buy a 2 hp two stroke Yamaha down here or a 2.5 Suzuki when we get back, partially as a spare, but also for when we are places like Vero Beach for instance where planning is not an option and you just don’t have a use for a big motor.
I want a spare, cause with the electronics in any motor now days, you not just filing points and going on anymore, you will need parts.

I have a pair of 3hp two-stokes in my garage right now and two larger outboards, various vintages, and do want to point out that they require parts just like everything else. The ones that predate the electronics era too.


- water pump impeller and wear plate
- prop shaft seal, easily damaged by monofilament and not repairable
- shear pin, prop itself, if you hit rocks
- ignition coils, the weak point on any magneto ignition system
- fuel lines, fittings, and connectors, though you can improvise here

[KTP]

Originally Posted by Jammer

These sorts of vignettes are really helpful for me, not because I'm considering an electric motor, but because I'm considering rowing.

If an electric outboard won't get you there in a reasonable time on, say 2kWh of battery, then rowing is going to take ages.

The best athlete could put out maybe 300 watts sustained, so 2kWh would be over 6 hours of rowing.

[john61ct]

Originally Posted by KTP

Size and weight on LFP means we could go to 50kWh but the cost needs to drop a bit. I am hoping eventually (next few years) LFP drops the way solar panels did.

Well eventually is a long time, but IMO won't happen until a better new hotness in portable energy storage comes along and starts to get widely implemented.

IOW don't count on it for a few decades.

[john61ct]

Originally Posted by KTP

If an electric outboard won't get you there in a reasonable time on, say 2kWh of battery, then rowing is going to take ages.



The best athlete could put out maybe 300 watts sustained, so 2kWh would be over 6 hours of rowing.

Some conversion losses missing there.

Only a tiny / light boat would get pushed over 6 hours by a 2kWh battery, even at very slow speed.

Pretty sure anyway. . .

[buddhadawg]

Originally Posted by a64pilot

Power is or should be a three legged stool.
What I did was fit as much Solar as I could, and as big a battery bank as was practicable. Then I went with a 165 amp alternator and a Balmar controller.
Then I fitted a Nexgen 3.5 KW based mostly on size and weight to run the Watermaker mostly but to also charge batteries if needed and even run the AC very occasionally.
In order to keep from putting so many hours on the Nexgen I got a Honda.
In truth I usually run the Honda, with the exception of running the AC occasionally, I don’t need the Nexgen, Primary power generation is by Solar.

If you look on Alaska forums etc. they say the Honda’s will run for thousands of hours, it seems the only problem they have is the crankcase vent freezing shut and blowing the crankshaft seal, which is not going to be a problem for most of us.

I can charge the batteries hard with the Honda, or make water or heat water for our shower, but one at a time, the Nexgen can do all three at once, that is the difference in a Honda and a built in Diesel from my experience.

where would be a good reference on current draw, and generation/storage for solar/wind, as in batteries necessary to run the boat, how much solar would I need etc.. thanks bill

[a64pilot]

Originally Posted by Jammer

I've watched the electric motor threads here and elsewhere including a very detailed writeup by Dylan Winter (of the Keep Turning Left videos) who very much wanted to like his Torqueedo but finally gave up.







These sorts of vignettes are really helpful for me, not because I'm considering an electric motor, but because I'm considering rowing.







I have a pair of 3hp two-stokes in my garage right now and two larger outboards, various vintages, and do want to point out that they require parts just like everything else. The ones that predate the electronics era too.


- water pump impeller and wear plate
- prop shaft seal, easily damaged by monofilament and not repairable
- shear pin, prop itself, if you hit rocks
- ignition coils, the weak point on any magneto ignition system
- fuel lines, fittings, and connectors, though you can improvise here

Yes, anything mechanical needs or should have some spares. I have a water pump kit and spark plugs etc for mine now, however the day that electronic fuel injection stops injecting fuel is likely the day that I’m looking for a dealer, cause that computer is not an inexpensive spare, and I don’t know how many sensors there are, nor how to determine if they are serviceable or not.
Points and coils are pretty easy to diagnose

[a64pilot]

Originally Posted by buddhadawg

where would be a good reference on current draw, and generation/storage for solar/wind, as in batteries necessary to run the boat, how much solar would I need etc.. thanks bill

That is an unanswerable question, it’s unanswerable due to the extreme variances in usage.
Some mostly motor wherever they go, a few don’t have operable motors and or have removed them and yet still go anywhere the ones that mostly motor go.
Where are you in that use spectrum?

I would advise you first to have a boat and cruise it for awhile before you decide, I find that we motor way more than I ever thought we would, and often motor for at least a day at 6 kts.

First a HP is a HP. Source whether it be electric, steam, diesel or gas is irrelevant. I laugh when electric proponents try to explain that an electric HP is somehow bigger, it’s not.
For me I would need as a min 20 HP continuously for say 24 hours. To even consider doing without my Diesel, and that is not possible without a big Diesel generator that would weigh more, and cost more and take up way more space than my propulsion Diesel.

As far as Solar is concerned, most of us struggle to get our house loads covered with Solar, we spend big bucks to get as efficient refrigeration as possible, led lights etc.. I have a kilowatt on a 38’ Boat, I’d have more but there is just nowhere to put it, and I have to fall back on a generator at times to keep my AGM bank healthy, I would have nothing left over for propulsion.

In my opinion to have a viable electric propulsion system for my boat, it would take first lithium batteries for the weight and charge acceptance rates, and likely 10 to 20 KW of panels. Even then you would have to make sacrifices over a Diesel, cause my Diesel is 44 HP and that sustained on my boat electrically isn’t even close to possible.
Even if you could fit it, the cost would be way more than the total cost of my boat.

In my opinion that is where electric propulsion for Joe average sailor breaks down, it’s possible, heck even nuclear is possible, but incredibly expensive and likely very fragile and along the lines of what I call a Science Experiment.

So some build their own, and for them it often works. Cause they built it and are aware of its short comings and will make whatever decisions are necessary to make it work, but they guy who wants to purchase an electric propulsion system but wants it to work just like a Diesel is not going to be happy I don’t think.

In my opinion the use case for electric propulsion and in my opinion where it would be preferable over a Diesel is for a boat that lives in a marina and is day sailed and not cruised, then recharge isn’t an issue, and motoring is only for short durations and short range.

Electric automobiles work, they are viable, but wouldn’t be without the recharging stations, imagine trying to make an electric car viable by Solar only, and making it so that it has to carry its Solar around, then realize that it takes much less power to push a car rolling on wheels than it does to push a boat through water, on average.

[buddhadawg]

i am afraid I have lead you a little astray. we wont be using the electric to provide propulsion, we will under sail most of the time in the Caribbean/gulf. planning on liveaboard/full time cruising. the power would be for regular activities. thanks again for your help...

[a64pilot]

Originally Posted by buddhadawg

i am afraid I have lead you a little astray. we wont be using the electric to provide propulsion, we will under sail most of the time in the Caribbean/gulf. planning on liveaboard/full time cruising. the power would be for regular activities. thanks again for your help...

Well in that case, most seem to fit all the Solar they can fit, go for about the biggest battery bank they can afford / fit.
Most seem to eschew wind now as I believe it costs way more than Solar and to some extent is at cross purposes in that often a wind generator will shade the Solar panels.
Solar can be done pretty inexpensively, or cost a fortune depending on how you go about it.
My Kilowatt I likely have in total about $1,000 in it, but could have easily spent way more than that on a mounting system alone.

The standard for battery usage is the amp hour, a stupid unit in my opinion as it disregards voltage, it would be much better in my opinion if we used watt / hours, but we don’t.
In my case we use about 130 AH in the time period between when Solar is charging, more of we watch a lot of TV, but only up to about 150 AH.
That works out well for our 660 AH bank as I almost never go below 75% SOC and often don’t go below 80% SOC.

Many use way less than we do, some use more. We are running an Engel as a freezer though and have a huge spillover fridge, that constitutes I’d guess at least 75% of our power consumption.

[KTP]

Originally Posted by a64pilot

I would advise you first to have a boat and cruise it for awhile before you decide, I find that we motor way more than I ever thought we would, and often motor for at least a day at 6 kts.

First a HP is a HP. Source whether it be electric, steam, diesel or gas is irrelevant. I laugh when electric proponents try to explain that an electric HP is somehow bigger, it’s not.
For me I would need as a min 20 HP continuously for say 24 hours. To even consider doing without my Diesel, and that is not possible without a big Diesel generator that would weigh more, and cost more and take up way more space than my propulsion Diesel.

If you really motor that much, why did you go the sailboat route instead of a trawler? Seems like all you really gain is a lightning rod?

Also, if you are running a diesel at 20HP continuously, you are consuming probably 1.5 to 2 gallons of fuel an hour. (don't start this "my diesel sips a pint an hour" because it is not doing that at 20HP output). 2 gallons for 24 hours is 48 gallons of fuel, larger tank than a lot of sailboats have.

Again, maybe a trawler?

[Ken Pole]

If you're going to that expense, why not consider methane-powered fuel cells?

[Ken Pole]

When I posted my "fuell cell" response,I neglected to add that a good starting point would be a search for "epoy fuell cell".

[sailcrazy]

A lot depends on how you intend to set up/equip your boat, ie, what do you plan to cook with, what battery charger(s) do you intend to use and your battery bank (space?), what type of water heater, aircon(s)? how much water you'll use and how often to run the watermaker for how many hours, etc, etc. My admiral hates cooking on gas, so we have an electric stove. And since we need electricity to cook, our water heater is AC, so is our refer system, and so is our watermaker; we also have 2 aircons (rarely used, but absolutely needed on occasion for heat or cooling). Our boat operates around running our Onan 6.5kva genset 2x/day, for about 1-1.5hr each time. We burn the same diesel as the prime mover (no separate fuel tanks/containers). Our 6.5kva allows us to run most things simultaneously, reducing genset run time, and making water every 3-5 days w/our 30gph watermaker also fits that general run profile. Seems to me you need to make some basic decisions regarding boat equipment and daily boat ops, and then equip accordingly. By the way, we started in the Philippines 20 yrs ago, sailed Asia for about 12 yrs, then the Medd for 3+, and are now in our 5th season in the Caribbean....build it for your wildest dreams, then add a little reserve capacity...you won't be sorry.

[john61ct]

Fuel cells are only useful to the extent their fuel source is

readily available

at a reasonable price

in the places you will take your boat.

All of which you may not even know at present.

For me, that means a propane one only, and I haven't come across any

at a reasonable price

fully released to the open market.

[Shaneesprit]

Originally Posted by coopec43

What about a 2.2 kva diesel generator weighing 54kg? I wonder if they are any good? The price of $3800 is AUD so it would be around $US3000

https://www.mygenerator.com.au/genel...by-yanmar.html

Hi
Having worked in the generator industry in production / testing / design and engineering / commissioning my opinion.
look at the picture here, see the alternator has a Black band around the centre ( obviously the colour is not important ) but what it shows is that the alternator casing is made in 2 parts and is bolted together using long bolts, ( the black piece is just a cover ) this is fine for a petrol generator but not on a diesel, they simply do not live with the added vibration of a diesel engine - if you buy a diesel genset the alternator needs to be solid cast aluminium.

https://www.genelite.com.au/product/gyd3500e-2/

for me the Yanmar is one of the best small diesels just not with this alternator type.

and yes it will be very noisy, think ear defenders, wouldn't even be allowed on most construction sites.