Cruisers Forum
 


Join CruisersForum Today

Reply
  This discussion is proudly sponsored by:
Please support our sponsors and let them know you heard about their products on Cruisers Forums. Advertise Here
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Rate Thread Display Modes
Old 25-11-2016, 00:14   #1
Registered User
 
SailingFan's Avatar

Join Date: Aug 2016
Location: Florida
Boat: Hunter 27, 1978
Posts: 467
Options for installing a generator on a 1978 H27

Ok, here is the ugly question I have been toying with, and thanks to some of the folks here, have realized is more difficult than I had initially realized. I am about to resume working on Equinox now that my health is getting a little better (just got out of the hospital again after last Friday nights ER visit and resulting intake that ended just Wednesday of this week. It is good to be home again...

We have two five foot by 3 foot (plus) solar panels. I think we have something like 440 watts of solar at peak output according to manufacturer specs, but are using them in the subtropics to tropics of Florida during the summertime rather than in the midlatitudes the manufacturer was quoting for.

I am also considering the option of mounting the generator in some sort of designated permanent housing on my Hunter 27, with the goal of having a means to gain electrical power of useful levels during specific high load periods when it would be handy without requiring the carrying of the massive battery bank (the weight figure of which the generator would instead feature in our weight equation) on a constant basis, when the battery bank would just be additional ballast (though there are potentially some reasons for having that ballast, especially given the nature of issues relative to storing a carbon monoxide producing noise machine on a recreational vessel of this size).

How would you (if you even would) mount said generator on this vessel?

What location would you use on my layout?

What would you use for a generator if you already had a heavy (but paid for) 5500 running (6500 peak) watt generator available for use in this capacity? Would you instead get a smaller one? How small? This 6500 peak watt one uses about 6 gallons of fuel in the same number of hours of continuous use, by the way, if it matters considering typical levels of use for the load types in question.

If you got a smaller one, how small would you go if you were planning on using it for loads like a 750 watt microwave, a 1500 watt toaster oven, a 900 watt single burner in calm weather, a 5K BTU AC unit on rare anchored occasion, or a heater of 1500 watt draw in the winter, assuming we did not head farther south at that time? We may use some of these items in combination, but not necessarily would they be used together on the generator circuits if available wattage was a problem and/or our solar could offset some of the load, so consider this in the question of generator size, please.

How would you route and control the poisonous exhaust of a gas powered generator of the size you suggest?

How would you address corrosion for the generator and its exhaust system and mounts, if one was installed? Would you instead use a more portable unit and store it somehow to limit corrosion and make mounting easier, and if so how large a unit would you select, given the issues listed already?
__________________

__________________
SailingFan
1978 Hunter 27
Learning by the day!
SailingFan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 25-11-2016, 02:10   #2
Registered User

Join Date: Aug 2015
Location: Marina del Rey
Boat: Hunter 31
Posts: 693
Re: Options for installing a generator on a 1978 H27

Dear SailingFan, happy to hear your health is improving. Wish you speedy recovery.

I am running a similar boat to yours, with similar loads. I just run the engine with an 80 amp alternator to recharge after these max loads. Our engines are small (13 hp), fuel efficient and easy to load. It is not good for the engine to run with no load but for short periods (<100 hrs/year) it is OK. I estimate the alternator takes around 3hp from the engine at full load which is a fair share of the total output, I.e. the smaller engine is loaded just by the alternator . Plus you get hot water for free.
__________________

Pizzazz is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 26-11-2016, 00:21   #3
Registered User
 
SailingFan's Avatar

Join Date: Aug 2016
Location: Florida
Boat: Hunter 27, 1978
Posts: 467
Re: Options for installing a generator on a 1978 H27

Thanks Pizzazz for the blessing and the reply. My tiny engine is 8 hp though. The alternator is new, but only about 30 or 35 amps output. I suppose that would help, but not sure if it would help enough.
__________________
SailingFan
1978 Hunter 27
Learning by the day!
SailingFan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 26-11-2016, 03:49   #4
Registered User
 
s/v Moondancer's Avatar

Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Miami
Boat: Boatless
Posts: 1,407
Re: Options for installing a generator on a 1978 H27

Just get a Honda 2K...Mine lasted 10 years and a friend used one everyday for 3 years on a circumnavigation.

FREE SHIPPING — Honda EU2000 Portable Inverter Generator — 2000 Surge Watts, 1600 Rated Watts, CARB-Compliant, Model# EU2000i | Inverter Generators| Northern Tool + Equipment
__________________
Phil

"Remember, experience only means that you screw-up less often."
s/v Moondancer is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 26-11-2016, 11:03   #5
Registered User

Join Date: Aug 2015
Location: Marina del Rey
Boat: Hunter 31
Posts: 693
Re: Options for installing a generator on a 1978 H27

I would still put an 80 amp alternator on the 1 cylinder engine. You may need to put a switch that allows you to reduce the alt amps in case you need full motive power from the engine.

My concern with the Honda generator on the smaller boat is that there is nowhere to keep it while keeping the vapors away. But you decide what is more convenient.
Pizzazz is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 26-11-2016, 19:53   #6
Registered User
 
SailingFan's Avatar

Join Date: Aug 2016
Location: Florida
Boat: Hunter 27, 1978
Posts: 467
Re: Options for installing a generator on a 1978 H27

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pizzazz View Post
I would still put an 80 amp alternator on the 1 cylinder engine. You may need to put a switch that allows you to reduce the alt amps in case you need full motive power from the engine.

My concern with the Honda generator on the smaller boat is that there is nowhere to keep it while keeping the vapors away. But you decide what is more convenient.
This makes sense, and I am thinking about using an automotive alternator for it. The current one is actually made for my SB-8, but an automotive one of 80-ish amps is not going to be near so costly, and the marine version really gets needed when running gasoline (and I don't), not on the inboard in any case, so no bilge gas vapors are at issue).

I am now thinking about how to get the hot water issue handled. Currently, she uses raw water cooling, and I am thinking there is a way to attach something to the exhaust side to route it to a tank that can heat water, then continue back to the exhaust as it is originally routed. I don't see a calorifier, I don't think. I will take another look at next yard visit though. Hopefully it won't be long, because I am paying $7.02 a day for storage in that part of the yard! Even if only a tank that allows the hot exhaust water to circulate around a freshwater line such that I have built my own calorifier.

I have to use on-board freshwater because I don't have a desalinator, and though my inland fresh water can be RO filtered inexpensively while on the St. John's River with a household unit, that won't be enough to handle coastal and brackish water, I am thinking. Now if I can just get the last of the PineSol out of my freshwater tank... Ugh...
__________________
SailingFan
1978 Hunter 27
Learning by the day!
SailingFan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 27-11-2016, 03:48   #7
Registered User

Join Date: Apr 2006
Posts: 4,413
Re: Options for installing a generator on a 1978 H27

I find generators noisy and I hate noise. One of the appeals of sailing is to escape noise and mechanical sounds. We both hate the noise of the diesel a necessary. A genset for us would be an uncessary evil.

I think the solution involves determining how much power you need... how many amps will your devices draw and how much capacity does your battery have?

You want to construct and realistic electric energy budget with both drains (loads) and inputs (charging sources)

Before getting a noisy genset consider:

larger capacity batteries
alternate charging sources...solar or wind
high output smart regulated alternator on your engine
change your lighting to LEDs
use more energy efficient devices and limit use

All of the above can be done incrementally...

And none of the above will disturb your neighbors!
Sandero is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 28-11-2016, 14:18   #8
Registered User

Join Date: Jan 2015
Location: Victoria BC
Boat: 1980 Hunter 36
Posts: 833
Re: Options for installing a generator on a 1978 H27

I'm surprised 440 watts isn't working for you - I have the 36' version of your boat and only 200 watts and it works ok for me - I went all LED though.

Maybe see if you can switch out some of your stuff for more energy efficient things?
__________________
S/V Gudgeon
www.gudgeonblog.ca
alctel is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 28-11-2016, 14:35   #9
Registered User

Join Date: Aug 2010
Posts: 929
Re: Options for installing a generator on a 1978 H27

Quote:
Originally Posted by SailingFan View Post
This makes sense, and I am thinking about using an automotive alternator for it. The current one is actually made for my SB-8, but an automotive one of 80-ish amps is not going to be near so costly, and the marine version really gets needed when running gasoline (and I don't), not on the inboard in any case, so no bilge gas vapors are at issue).
I would also consider materials used in manufacture as well as ignition protection. If you don't feel ignition protection is relevant because of diesel, I would still consider that marine versions are typically made with materials more resilient to the corrosion prevalent in salt environments.
Shrew is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 28-11-2016, 15:44   #10
Registered User
 
SailingFan's Avatar

Join Date: Aug 2016
Location: Florida
Boat: Hunter 27, 1978
Posts: 467
Re: Options for installing a generator on a 1978 H27

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shrew View Post
I would also consider materials used in manufacture as well as ignition protection. If you don't feel ignition protection is relevant because of diesel, I would still consider that marine versions are typically made with materials more resilient to the corrosion prevalent in salt environments.
Shrew, while I wholeheartedly agree with you, for the cost of a marine alternator of that size, I can get two or three NEW automotive ones (and several used ones or a ton of rebuild kits for same). As this is not my "ForeverBoat" I have no issue getting a cheap automotive one, boxing up the marine "for the specific engine and amperage" alternator for emergencies and future owners, and gain some additional charging capacity. I cannot imagine how poorly a 35 amp alternator is going to deal with my loads, but I don't see it charging batteries and running a load of any real amount as I increase the house bank past the single current battery (soon to be multiples as cash infusions allow), thus the thought about this generator.

I normally think as you do, though, go for better construction based upon the environment and situation should things fail. Of course, this engine has the bonus of being capable of starting without use of the battery, but the hand crank is not terribly friendly with knuckles against that darned stairwell casing... The starter is far more hand-friendly. Again, more batteries are called for, again, increased charging capacity is called for, and as these few batteries for which I have room near full, the 35 is going to get awfully measly. Of course, maybe an 80 won't be a great deal better on a small bank, but it should be helpful when I get to four or so Series 27 sized batteries.

I agree with all others as well when it comes to LED technology. I fully intend to make use of that tech as I rewire in the next month or so, putting all LED throughout, to include signal lights on the mast and stern, as well as within the cockpit and cabin/berthing areas. I love the miserly consumption rates of LEDs, and they run cool to boot with long life relative to incandescent lights. Additionally, I believe the fire risk to be lower with LEDs and there is far less opportunity for corrosion to kill them than there is for traditional RV automotive bulbs (I can tell, because the current bulbs and fixtures are all displaying corrosion!).

I was thinking additionally about my refrigeration requirements, and the boat comes with a deep in-counter icebox with drain. I think the original plan was for customers to put blocks of ice in there, and cans of "soda", etc. I am thinking that instead of a refrigerator, I could actually get a small 12 volt (or 110v) countertop ice maker, and when the ice in the box melts to the point that it is not useful, I could make my own ice and drop it in there. I would have to make a suspension rack to hold food out of the resultant pool that accumulates between draining sessions at the bottom of the box, but that would be minor inconvenience relative to the cost of keeping the dorm fridge running while not running the engine. I was also considering the potential of routing a copper recirculating line with a radiator at the top out of this "fridge," with a small fan on the bulkhead aft of this radiator, and a tiny 12v aquarium pump circulating the water, like what is used on an aquarium. The line in the box would be copper, the line between that and the radiator would be rubber tubing (attempting to minimize condensate), and the radiator could be copper or aluminum. The air blowing through it would act as the opposite of a car radiator. The thing could be as small as a transmission oil cooler or less. I am sure I could locate one, or at worse, recycle one from a broken window AC unit someplace, which essentially this really becomes, minus the heat of a compressor running on electricity to pressurize the coolant (recirculating water).

That would give me fridge and light air conditioning (of sorts) at sea, without the load of the normal air conditioner, the hassles of mounting that turkey, and the risks of having the open companionway to allow it to rest there when at sea or in port. This would make a good compromise on the fridge as well, as the ice maker would only have to be working now and then, not all the time. I would have to add additional insulation around the icebox and its lid, but that is minor relative to the space taken by the dorm refrigerator and the cost and noise of boosting the power with engines and generators to get the supply high enough to run these items.

I have repeatedly been thinking about these solutions to my issues, and the more I consider them, the more I dislike the lost space that comes with having a dorm fridge and window air conditioner unit bouncing around a rocking 27 foot Hunter of this vintage. Thoughts?
__________________
SailingFan
1978 Hunter 27
Learning by the day!
SailingFan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 28-11-2016, 17:16   #11
Moderator
 
a64pilot's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Oct 2013
Location: Albany Ga.
Boat: Island Packet 38
Posts: 22,873
Re: Options for installing a generator on a 1978 H27

Forget the monster noise maker generator you now have.
A Diesel built in is 5K or more assuming you have a place too put it.
Only the 2000W Honda makes sense to me, anything else is too expensive, too heavy and or too noisy.
But that is my opinion
a64pilot is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 28-11-2016, 17:55   #12
֍֎֍֎֍֎֍֎֍֎

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Apr 2006
Posts: 14,892
Re: Options for installing a generator on a 1978 H27

I'm reminded of the line from Jaws: "We're gonna need a bigger boat." You've got two 3x5 solar panels stashed there somplace? And something like four G31 batteries? On a 27' boat? Inboard, outboard? Bolting on a bigger alternator may just stall the engine. At best you'd want an expensive regulator that gave you a "soft start" option to unload the engine when needed. But it really sounds like you need to enumerate the loads and work on cutting them down, before you start trying to squeeze in large and heavy ways of making more power. There's just so much you can add to a 27' boat, no matter how you try to do it.
hellosailor is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 28-11-2016, 19:23   #13
Registered User
 
SailingFan's Avatar

Join Date: Aug 2016
Location: Florida
Boat: Hunter 27, 1978
Posts: 467
Re: Options for installing a generator on a 1978 H27

Quote:
Originally Posted by hellosailor View Post
I'm reminded of the line from Jaws: "We're gonna need a bigger boat." You've got two 3x5 solar panels stashed there somplace? And something like four G31 batteries? On a 27' boat? Inboard, outboard? Bolting on a bigger alternator may just stall the engine. At best you'd want an expensive regulator that gave you a "soft start" option to unload the engine when needed. But it really sounds like you need to enumerate the loads and work on cutting them down, before you start trying to squeeze in large and heavy ways of making more power. There's just so much you can add to a 27' boat, no matter how you try to do it.
I agree, thus the removal of the dorm fridge and AC unit from this equation, as that will save at least 40 pounds of weight and a bit of draw. I can leave the generator on land, dumping quite a bit more. I forgot about the outboard, which would add a little more of a bit to what the inboard does alone. The panels mount on deck, but I want to put them over the cockpit as a sun roof aft of the main's boom. Have to work that out, what with the traveler being mounted aft of the tiller post...

I really don't want to have more reliance on electricity, I want less. I just want to be sure my wife does not hop over the side for land when she realizes we are still operating out of an ice chest and using a pail for a latrine (hence the restoration of the head area).
__________________
SailingFan
1978 Hunter 27
Learning by the day!
SailingFan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 28-11-2016, 20:08   #14
Marine Service Provider
 
boatpoker's Avatar

Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Toronto, Ontario or Bahamas
Boat: Benford 38 Fantail Cruiser
Posts: 3,516
Re: Options for installing a generator on a 1978 H27

Seriously consider consulting a qualified marine electrician before opening your wallet.
What you want to achieve and how you want to achieve it is simply incomprehensible on a 27' boat with an 8hp engine.
__________________
That hysterical laughter you hear as you sail a way in your "new" boat ..... is the seller.
boatpoker is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 28-11-2016, 20:42   #15
֍֎֍֎֍֎֍֎֍֎

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Apr 2006
Posts: 14,892
Re: Options for installing a generator on a 1978 H27

AC and dorm fridge? And here I was, thinking how it was pretty much impossible to just support a decent 100 watt (output) rated stereo on anything under 40' OAL. Even a simple cooler on a 27' boat is going to need some diligent work on heavy custom insulation and careful choice of capacity, if you plan to stay off the dock for more than overnight. That's just the way it is. Ditto on the solar: The only way to get that much area is a custom bimini top, probably extending way aft of the cockpit in order to get it out of any boom shadow. Fortunately marine heads don't need electricity. I'd agree with the wife, that a real head with room to stand up is a non-negotiable point though. But you might as well break down and tell her the sad news: If she wants a proper galley, you're gonna need twice as much boat. Sacrifice, do it for her.(G)
__________________

hellosailor is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
generator

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Portable Generator vs Solar Panels or Wind Generator Sweet As Electrical: Batteries, Generators & Solar 120 16-09-2010 19:27
Installing New Honda2000i Generator nknowland Electrical: Batteries, Generators & Solar 14 09-07-2010 14:20
Wire Sizing for Installing Solar Panels / Wind Generator Eddie Electrical: Batteries, Generators & Solar 17 30-03-2010 20:06
New Generator Panel -- Valuable Options? tulsatbird Electrical: Batteries, Generators & Solar 11 24-01-2010 16:42
Any way to convert a DC Generator to an AC Generator? Latitude9.5 Engines and Propulsion Systems 13 06-04-2007 12:06



Copyright 2002- Social Knowledge, LLC All Rights Reserved.

All times are GMT -7. The time now is 20:56.


Google+
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2019, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Social Knowledge Networks
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2019, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.

ShowCase vBulletin Plugins by Drive Thru Online, Inc.