Cruisers Forum
 


Join CruisersForum Today

Reply
 
Thread Tools Rate Thread Display Modes
Old 07-09-2013, 08:30   #16
Jd1
Registered User

Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: Victoria, BC
Boat: Catalina 36 MKII
Posts: 1,095
Re: Off-Grid Power Systems on Land

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dockhead View Post
Incredibly useful and sobering advice -- thank you!

Some of this information I was aware of, other not.

I was aware that the Indian Listeroids should be regarded as kits. If I acquire one, I will tear it down completely and build it back up, ensuring that everything is the right dimension, replacing anything dodgy, and getting all the casting sand (!) out. I would have it balanced. I have heard that the camshafts and idler gears on the Indian twins are irredeemable carp; no big deal to have proper ones made up by a good machine shop.
I have heard the same rumours about the camshafts and idler gears. I have not (yet) had a camshaft issue (I have a spare) and I have modified the engine for better lubrication of the gears. The issue with the camshaft is primarily the fact that the lobes are pinned and this introduces a weakness in the cam.

Quote:
I was not aware that they only live 10,000 hours; in fact I have heard numerous reports of the opposite, once you get them right. Actually, the useful life is supposed to be essentially unlimited since everything is massively overbuilt, and the small number of moving parts are all replaceable, down to individual cam lobes. Parts are abundant and cheap, and these motors are incredibly easy to work on. The crankshaft main bearings are externally mounted! It takes five minutes to pull the heads! This is the opposite of modern disposable engines which are so complex you need a laboratory to take them apart (and you don't; they're basically disposable).
Yes and no - yes the useful life is unlimited (watch out that you get the right engine with sleeves, some are sleeveless, get cast iron pistons instead of aluminum etc). Parts are rare in North America and I would expect a similar situation in England. All parts can be sourced from India and are incredibly cheap if you buy them with the engine but become quite expensive if you buy them after the fact due to freight.
Yes it is easy to pull the heads especially on a single but 5 minutes isn't going to do it.

Quote:
Why in the world would you change oil every 150 hours in an engine in continuous duty and with such tiny bearing loads? That's like once a week! I would have thought much longer intervals would be typical -- 500 hours? Or does burning used vegetable oil contaminate the lube oil?
I am not sure off hand what the recommended interval is for a single but I believe the twin calls for 150 hrs. Yes, the oil gets contaminated and ends up quite thick. I don't know if operation with diesel is any different.

Quote:
I was aware that reprocessing was involved in preparing used vegetable oil. I am not (yet) aware of how involved that is; thanks for the heads up. Have you experimented with used motor oil? Can you mix them?
Yes you can burn used motor oil (but watch out for synthetics) but it's very messy and it isn't good for the engine. Of course 'good' is relative. If you see a 10% (figure grabbed out of the air) increase in wear, will that materially effect things? I stopped burning used engine oil although I did recycle oil from my diesel truck as a lubricating oil in the Listeroid. Dilution isn't a solution IMHO - all crap will cause additional wear and I look at it as 'you are allowed X total crap before the engine wears' - dilution just drags out death. This is a hotly debated issue and opinions differ.
Yes, you can mix.
In North America, any spills can be incredibly expensive to un-do and the risk of having a large qty of motor oil on site was too much for me. Vegetable oil is (IMHO) a lot easier to deal with when (not if) you get a spill.

Quote:
The soot-coated engine room story is also sobering. You've given me a lot to think about -- thanks very much!
This may (or may not) be a red herring. A single is much better at creating a negative pressure in the crankcase and it is easier to vent because of that. I fed crankcase vapours into the engine combustion air input (watch out for runaway situations) but these engines are incredibly 'leaky' and you will get 'spillage'. A minor leak in the exhaust at a flange or what-have-you can spill a lot of soot in an enclosed space over an extended run time.
I am facing a cleanup that I have avoided all summer long
__________________

__________________
Jd1 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-09-2013, 08:32   #17
Jd1
Registered User

Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: Victoria, BC
Boat: Catalina 36 MKII
Posts: 1,095
Re: Off-Grid Power Systems on Land

Quote:
Originally Posted by RaymondR View Post
Used engine oil can be burnt in diesel engines if you dilute it with diesel, it's how offshore oil rigs dispose of it.

Treating vegetable oil to turn it into biodiesel requires processing it with methanol and a caustic soda solution, you should be able to find a recipe on the net.
The OP wants to use vegetable oil, not biodiesel. In my opinion biodiesel is a waste of time and money for Listeroids. Lots of work and expense for very little (if any) gain.
__________________

__________________
Jd1 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-09-2013, 08:43   #18
Senior Cruiser
 
atoll's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: gettin naughty on the beach in cornwall
Boat: 63 custom alloy sloop,macwester26,prout snowgoose 37 elite catamaran!
Posts: 9,311
Images: 75
Re: Off-Grid Power Systems on Land

Lister Petter Parts & Spares

easy to get spares in the uk
__________________
my catamaran building project updates http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/...36#post2502136
atoll is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 07-09-2013, 10:00   #19
Jd1
Registered User

Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: Victoria, BC
Boat: Catalina 36 MKII
Posts: 1,095
Re: Off-Grid Power Systems on Land

Quote:
Originally Posted by atoll View Post
Lister Petter Parts & Spares

easy to get spares in the uk
That's for original Listers, not Listeroids



I also need to correct a previous error: Oil change interval for my 20/2 is 250 hrs, not 150 as previously stated. I still believe the singles are 500 hrs which is odd because the twin has a much larger oil capacity.
In any case, I changed oil more frequently because of the state of the oil. I'd have to look at the maintenance log to find out more details.
__________________
Jd1 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-09-2013, 10:30   #20
Senior Cruiser
 
atoll's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: gettin naughty on the beach in cornwall
Boat: 63 custom alloy sloop,macwester26,prout snowgoose 37 elite catamaran!
Posts: 9,311
Images: 75
Re: Off-Grid Power Systems on Land

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jd1 View Post
That's for original Listers, not Listeroids



I also need to correct a previous error: Oil change interval for my 20/2 is 250 hrs, not 150 as previously stated. I still believe the singles are 500 hrs which is odd because the twin has a much larger oil capacity.
In any case, I changed oil more frequently because of the state of the oil. I'd have to look at the maintenance log to find out more details.


thats why i reccomended to the op to get a second hand lister in the uk there are tens of thousands here,and almost every week i see them advertised on ebay uk.
why bother with a knock off when you can have the real thing,that has been precision machined with readily available parts,and the op lives in the uk.
__________________
my catamaran building project updates http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/...36#post2502136
atoll is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 07-09-2013, 11:10   #21
Registered User

Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: Caribbean
Boat: Oyster 66
Posts: 973
Re: Off-Grid Power Systems on Land

If you could really get enough cooking oil for free or maybe even if you had to buy the fuel it sounds like there is a business idea there. Perhaps you should up-scale the project and supply the village. I happen to have a 500Kva genset from 1978 spare complete with switch gear. Dorman V12 12ltr. Only 185hrs. Ex Navy stand by genset. Should be in great shape.
__________________
poiu is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-09-2013, 19:28   #22
Senior Cruiser
 
senormechanico's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Aug 2003
Boat: Dragonfly 1000 trimaran
Posts: 5,826
Re: Off-Grid Power Systems on Land

Search eBay.
Who would'a thunk?

lister | eBay
__________________
senormechanico is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 07-09-2013, 19:49   #23
Registered User
 
Nicholson58's Avatar

Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: Live aboard
Boat: Camper & Nicholson58 Ketch - ROXY Traverse City, Michigan No.668283
Posts: 3,466
Images: 83
Re: Off-Grid Power Systems on Land

I suggest you read the long doctorate on HANDY BOB SOLAR blog. He has fixed many screwed up installations, electrical engineer, lives off the grid HandyBob's Blog « Making off grid RV electrical systems work
__________________
Nicholson58 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-09-2013, 19:58   #24
Registered User

Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Australia
Boat: Island Packet 40
Posts: 1,373
Images: 7
Re: Off-Grid Power Systems on Land

Quote:

Water Cooled Horizontal Diesel Engine TF/TS Series 6-23 HP

Yanmar's TF(M), TS Engine Many ways tougher, All ways Superior
Direct Fuel Injection Produces Dynamic power. With direct fuel injection, combustion power acts directly on the toroidal piston crown, boosting energy, decreasing thermal losses. Extra high output creates the tough torque needed for heavy duty jobs.
Not sure if the extract will post but if you Google "Yanmar Industrial Diesels" and look for their TS and TF series it should come up.
__________________
RaymondR is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-09-2013, 20:46   #25
Registered User
 
Rhapsody-NS27's Avatar

Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: VA, boat: Deale, MD
Boat: 1981 Nor'sea 27
Posts: 1,409
Re: Off-Grid Power Systems on Land

Since high school, I've been looking into Solar energy. First, my idea was to run my Amateur Radio gear off of solar, then I thought it would be better to run the whole house. I researched parts/supplies etc., and had things all figured out but never really had the funds to go ahead and do it. Then the idea evolved to use wind energy too.

I looked into biofuels too. From what I remember, doing straight vegetable oil (SVO) only requires a slight modification to the engine, but the oil can be converted to BioDiesel as previously mentioned. I was researching BioDiesel and like the solar idea, I had ideas and plans in my mind and on the computer (all of which as since gone away) with how to build a simple setup to make my own. There are companies that sell kits and supplies.

With a supply of Veg oil, I think it would be a good idea to give it a try. Since you'll be getting it from restaurants, you would mainly have to get some filters to make sure it's as clean/clear as possible before trying to run it through the engine. These days with high costs all around us, you just need to get a little creative just to get by.

Good luck in this project. It sounds like it would be an interesting learning experience.
__________________
Daniel - Rhapsody Blog,
“A sailor’s joys are as simple as a child’s.” — Bernard Moitessier
"I don't need therapy, I just need my boat"
Rhapsody-NS27 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-09-2013, 00:47   #26
Registered User

Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Australia
Boat: Island Packet 40
Posts: 1,373
Images: 7
Re: Off-Grid Power Systems on Land

I think that one of the major advantages of making biodiesel from waste oil is that it allows gravity separation of the nasties. Clean, filtered vegetable oil would not require much in the way of filtration however the cost would probably be more than that of diesel. The biggest cost in the biodiesel from waste oil would probably be the methanol.

This is a bit off topic but there are some fascinating things going on with Stirling cycle engines for in-home, electricity and heating purposes from natural gas.
__________________
RaymondR is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-09-2013, 03:14   #27
Moderator
 
Dockhead's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Cowes (Winter), Baltic (Summer) (the boat!); somewhere in the air (me!)
Boat: Cutter-Rigged Moody 54
Posts: 19,737
Quote:
Originally Posted by RaymondR View Post
I think that one of the major advantages of making biodiesel from waste oil is that it allows gravity separation of the nasties. Clean, filtered vegetable oil would not require much in the way of filtration however the cost would probably be more than that of diesel. The biggest cost in the biodiesel from waste oil would probably be the methanol.

This is a bit off topic but there are some fascinating things going on with Stirling cycle engines for in-home, electricity and heating purposes from natural gas.
Not off topic at all. I remember the remarkable Whispergen for boats. If I could buy a Stirling generator, power it with waste oil and lumber waste, that would be totally cool. But I'm not aware of any sources.
__________________
"Parce que je suis heureux en mer, et peut-ętre pour sauver mon ame. . . "
Dockhead is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-09-2013, 03:29   #28
Moderator
 
Dockhead's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Cowes (Winter), Baltic (Summer) (the boat!); somewhere in the air (me!)
Boat: Cutter-Rigged Moody 54
Posts: 19,737
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jd1 View Post

I have heard the same rumours about the camshafts and idler gears. I have not (yet) had a camshaft issue (I have a spare) and I have modified the engine for better lubrication of the gears. The issue with the camshaft is primarily the fact that the lobes are pinned and this introduces a weakness in the cam.

Yes and no - yes the useful life is unlimited (watch out that you get the right engine with sleeves, some are sleeveless, get cast iron pistons instead of aluminum etc). Parts are rare in North America and I would expect a similar situation in England. All parts can be sourced from India and are incredibly cheap if you buy them with the engine but become quite expensive if you buy them after the fact due to freight.
Yes it is easy to pull the heads especially on a single but 5 minutes isn't going to do it.

I am not sure off hand what the recommended interval is for a single but I believe the twin calls for 150 hrs. Yes, the oil gets contaminated and ends up quite thick. I don't know if operation with diesel is any different.

Yes you can burn used motor oil (but watch out for synthetics) but it's very messy and it isn't good for the engine. Of course 'good' is relative. If you see a 10% (figure grabbed out of the air) increase in wear, will that materially effect things? I stopped burning used engine oil although I did recycle oil from my diesel truck as a lubricating oil in the Listeroid. Dilution isn't a solution IMHO - all crap will cause additional wear and I look at it as 'you are allowed X total crap before the engine wears' - dilution just drags out death. This is a hotly debated issue and opinions differ.
Yes, you can mix.
In North America, any spills can be incredibly expensive to un-do and the risk of having a large qty of motor oil on site was too much for me. Vegetable oil is (IMHO) a lot easier to deal with when (not if) you get a spill.

This may (or may not) be a red herring. A single is much better at creating a negative pressure in the crankcase and it is easier to vent because of that. I fed crankcase vapours into the engine combustion air input (watch out for runaway situations) but these engines are incredibly 'leaky' and you will get 'spillage'. A minor leak in the exhaust at a flange or what-have-you can spill a lot of soot in an enclosed space over an extended run time.
I am facing a cleanup that I have avoided all summer long
I've now discovered that I don't need boat-type inverters, but just a fairly cheap "grid tie inverter". So if free veg oil continues to be available, the payback of such a device will be less than three years, even allowing for a lot of maintenance, even if I only run it 10 hours a day. Power here costs about $0.20 per kWh/h and is predicted to keep going up.

I like it. Of course it's primarily a toy - even if it pays for itself quickly, it will never pay for my time tinkering with it. But that's ok. It will be fun, and besides it will be politically beneficial in my household where no one complains about how I spend all my free time and money tinkering on the boat. Time to spend some time and money tinkering with the house. It will be appreciated.

I could order a couple of these and a large supply of parts, tear them down, choose the best one for myself, and probably recover my whole investment selling on the other (now finely tuned) one.

First thing, however, is to study power consumption patterns. Need some remote access power analyzer for that.
__________________

__________________
"Parce que je suis heureux en mer, et peut-ętre pour sauver mon ame. . . "
Dockhead is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
paracelle

Thread Tools
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off




Copyright 2002- Social Knowledge, LLC All Rights Reserved.

All times are GMT -7. The time now is 10:02.


Google+
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Social Knowledge Networks
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.

ShowCase vBulletin Plugins by Drive Thru Online, Inc.