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Old 14-11-2018, 14:14   #1
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NEW Dimension - LTO Battery from GWL Power

Today I found this battery on the EV-Power website
https://www.ev-power.eu/LTO-technolo...ical.html#tab4

https://files.i4wifi.cz/inc/_doc/att..._datasheet.pdf

2,3 Nominal Voltage
40 amps
10C (400amp) charging in 10 minutes
30.000 cycles
Charging -55 - 65šC
Discharging -55 - 65šC

STORAGE HUMIDITY 70%

But more interesting.......


6 batteries = 13.8 Volt

Max charge = 2,8 Volt
with 6 batteries we are at 16,8 volts.
No standard 12 volt alternator will get there

Max DOD = 1,5 volt
6 Batteries = 9 Volts
Any inverter etc. will shut down long before that and that already makes a big problem disappear

Do we need a BMS ?
How will that affect all our current problems with converting to Lithium ?
Can we use our existing standard installations and just add on bigger fuses ?
What about trouble shooting and dealing with the bugs in remote locations ?
Seems to me we just got out of the swamp

Ca. 60$/unit price
Ca. 1800 $ for a 12Volt 200amp battery.
Yes, that is more expensive but how much do we save with a less complicated systems and installation ?

How will that affect prices of older battery types with less compatible voltage ?

How does it compare to foot print and weight with other battery types ?

12 Volt 200 amp = 37,5 Kg
= 1,25 Kg / 2,3Volt - 40 amp
= Cylinder H 202mm x DIA 66 mm
How much Amps - Kw/h can we fit in existing battery compartments.

What are the risks with LTO batteries and how do we manage them ?

Letīs play with it.
That looks like a real game changer to me.
Cheers
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Old 14-11-2018, 14:42   #2
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Re: NEW Dimension - LTO Battery from GWL Power

Interesting safety comment

Quote:
As Lithium Titanate batteries are entirely free of carbon, they avoid thermal runaway or overheating which is a main cause of fires in traditional energy storage systems.
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Old 14-11-2018, 15:09   #3
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Re: NEW Dimension - LTO Battery from GWL Power

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Originally Posted by Paul L View Post
Interesting safety comment
Yes indeed that is a very firm statement.
However my guts tell me that needs a little more elaboration.
Sounds almost to good to be true and I donīt believe in Santa Claus anymore.
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Old 14-11-2018, 15:17   #4
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Re: NEW Dimension - LTO Battery from GWL Power

EV batteries (should) have very little to do with mobile House usage.

There are many dozens of lithium chemistries out there, one EV vendor selling another is no cause for excitement.

Let the pioneer hobbyists do their experiments in the back shed for a while. Maybe one day a packaged system suitable to install on a boat will be brought to market.
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Old 14-11-2018, 16:11   #5
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Re: NEW Dimension - LTO Battery from GWL Power

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Originally Posted by john61ct View Post
EV batteries (should) have very little to do with mobile House usage.

There are many dozens of lithium chemistries out there, one EV vendor selling another is no cause for excitement.

Let the pioneer hobbyists do their experiments in the back shed for a while. Maybe one day a packaged system suitable to install on a boat will be brought to market.
Well, we all have our opinions, !! RIGHT !!

That is a very poor comment and not creative
I suggest You sit on the side and watch instead of making noise

There are many people out there playing with the idear of spending thousands of dollars to upgrade their systems
2,3 volts for me is a game changer.
So maybe itīs worth while to have a closer look before investing thousands of dollars in an out dated system.
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Old 15-11-2018, 16:41   #6
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Re: NEW Dimension - LTO Battery from GWL Power

Warrior, why would you say "we all have our opinions"....and then attack someone's opinion? John happens to be one of the guys who has a pretty sharp intellect and has contributed tons of information to fellow org members over the years i have been on here.

Perhaps it is your age...but from an old guy...it is not what you say...it is how you say it. Never a need to denigrate another's opinion. Debate and debasing are two different things. One method is sustainable as expanding the conversation and developing the discussion. The other is not sustainable because it creates bad feelings and marginalizes people's character...Your comments were interesting without attacking ....never a need to do that.
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Old 15-11-2018, 18:16   #7
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Re: NEW Dimension - LTO Battery from GWL Power

I am looking at a new 6~800 Amps bank.
My understanding of the subject is limited, these discussions are very helpful to me.
Please continue. ��������
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Old 16-11-2018, 01:27   #8
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Re: NEW Dimension - LTO Battery from GWL Power

Well, I donīt come here to argue. So I wanna keep this short.

[QUOTE=alansmith;2762349]Warrior, why would you say "we all have our opinions"....and then attack someone's opinion? John happens to be one of the guys who has a pretty sharp intellect and has contributed tons of information to fellow org members over the years i have been on here.

I am aware of that. The more I am disappointed.
Sorry I donīt know how to judge by the number of contributions. I go by the quality of content. I come to the forum for years almost everyday. However I donīt write that much. Thatīs what I do when I have nothing to say.

[QUOTE= Perhaps it is your age... Hmmmm ?ŋ?
[QUOTE= but from an old guy... Hmmmm ?ŋ?
Where did that one come from ? Now You got me confused.

[QUOTE= it is not what you say...it is how you say it.
I agree, that was a pretty sharp and intelligent vocabulary on Johnīs behalf.
I started this thread to find others with ! interest ! in the topic..
I hope I am in the right place.

[QUOTE= Never a need to denigrate another's opinion. Debate and debasing are two different things.
Yeah, tell me about it.

[QUOTE=One method is sustainable as expanding the conversation and developing the discussion. The other is not sustainable because it creates bad feelings and marginalizes people's character.

I share Your point of view.

The EV market and energy storage are the main drivers of the battery industrie. However we should not get confused by the name of the company EV POWER. Since years the are the only company in the EU that has stock worth mentioning to my knowledge. When I go to there website I donīt get the impression they are focused on the EV market. They even offer a 200 amp sailboat package.When I look at their product line I see them focused as the prime outlet of the mayor Chinese Lithium battery manufacturers in the EU.

Without any doubt GWL POWER is one of those players, even so lately there brand is not that present in our latitudes. There are many boats around the world that have their batteries on board on private iniciative or installed by specialized companies and till now I am not aware of any complaints. Also many others used their products in all kinds of applications.

That gives me reason enough to have a closer look when they come up with a new product, and even more so when those two names show up on the same spec sheet. Going through there description I canīt find any specific recommendation as to application like traction or energy storage that we are used to. However with LTO they focus on safety, much higher charge and discharge rates, by far superior life cycles and a much wider temp range specially on the low side. One thing is for sure in my opinion. The EV market in today s world is not the only one anymore with needs for fast charging and higher discharge rates and when it comes to our marine application itīs a wild mix anyhow.

" one EV vendor selling another is no cause for excitement."
Well yes, that is boring.
But when a company like GWL POWER puts such impressive numbers on their spec sheet together with their mayor outlet in the EU market that is exciting. I would say itīs fair to asume they will back up what they promise on their spec sheet. At least till now I have no reasons to doubt their reputation.

This is not MAYBE ONE DAY. This is right now.
Yeah, I hope I am in the right place ?

So another thing that goes through my mind is the fact that most likely with with 30 amp standard shore power and the current charging methods on board I will never reach such a critical charge rate. Most likely with a proper sized battery bank I will also never get to a 10C discharge rate. As a result my batteries will never get hot and that will eliminate the need of the temp sensor to watch my hard earned dollars 24 hours everyday. Well, I mention that because those temp sensors do fail.

I would like to have some comments of the experts on this topic.

Furthermore , now there is this new temp range that goes down to -55šC.
Well, till now I heard some pioneer hobbyists do all kinds of experiments with electric heater pads, insulation and what not to deal with the issues but it seems to me we are just adding on more and new sources of possible headaches. My pulse is always rising when I dream of all the possible sceneries in combination with stormy winter nights way below freezing and the boat sitting in some marina while I am away a few hundred miles for some months. Yeah great, the last time I was there I remember the weather was still warm but now itīs cold. I hope the thermostat of the heater pad is working as promised or it will drain the batteries down below max DOD and then I have no bilge pump.
Well there are not only pioneer hobbyists. There are also people like me with a wild imagination. I have been in the back shed but I find myself always coming back with empty hands or more complicated solutions due to technical limits of the technology.
Well. of course there are the Drop In solutions, supposedly suitable for the installations in boats. I always look at them with a grain of salt, specially when I see too many over priced black boxes. I have seen too many inside and today I understand that even the most advanced inventers have to buy components in the big pond.

Hahaha, wouldnīt it be just easier and less complicated if there is a better battery in the first place ?
The one from yesterday is not
Hopefully the one of tomorrow is better.

Cheers
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Old 16-11-2018, 08:14   #9
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Re: NEW Dimension - LTO Battery from GWL Power

Quote:
Originally Posted by warrior 90 View Post
This is not MAYBE ONE DAY. This is right now.
Yeah, I hope I am in the right place ?
…
I would like to have some comments of the experts on this topic.
The DIY EV forums is where the more knowledgeable hobbyists hang out.

I am not at all saying don't experiment, reverse engineer the packaged systems you say are in wide use (links please?), cobble your own DIY systems together out in the back shed.

Go for it, when you think you've grokked it all let us know, maybe even install on your boat once you think it's ready for prime time.

However, most members here are still learning / figuring out optimal usage of the various **lead** chemistries.

LFP is the **only** non-lead chemistry I've seen recommended for mobile House energy storage, by people I've learned to trust.

> Without any doubt GWL POWER is one of those players

> a company like GWL POWER puts such impressive numbers

> I have no reasons to doubt their reputation

To me this makes you sound like a shill.

I have never seen any of their products, nor discussed them with anyone who owns one, so afaic they have no reputation in mobile House energy storage.

But maybe you just know a lot more than me, I dunno, I'm willing to be schooled, if you can state facts connected to what we already know, build a case step by step backed by credible sources.

Until then I personally default to skeptical.

Example, show threads / posts / reports where these cells are in already in use for nominal 12V banks, 100-800AH capacity range, along with the ancillary charge / control hardware used.

> needs for fast charging and higher discharge rates

It is rare for over 1C to actually be "needed" in mobile House energy storage.

Can be accommodated when needed with LFP.

Forget 10C wtf is your example use case there?

And yes for those few spending lots of time in Arctic conditions and unwilling to provide a heated space for their bank

> down to -55šC

Would be nice. But IMO all the other infrastructure systems required to be developed to support this chemistry

will make thermostats and heating pads look pretty low-tech and reliable.

> pioneer hobbyists. There are also people like me with a wild imagination.

I just meant as opposed to experienced professionals, implementing proven, or at least soon-to-be-mainstream solutions.

> wouldnīt it be just easier and less complicated if there is a better battery in the first place ?

Each new chemistry will take decades of use in other contexts, before

they have the proven hardware infrastructures and a critical mass of knowledgeable vendors and aftermarket tech professionals

needed to support use as mobile House energy storage. And then expedition vehicle / RV / campervan usage will come first by the bleeding edge early adopters.

Because when SHTF you can much more easily jump out on land

rather than overboard into the ocean.
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Old 18-11-2018, 06:44   #10
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Re: NEW Dimension - LTO Battery from GWL Power

Warrier, look at the discharge rates aren't they higher. Is that a game changer too? How would that work in your boat? I am not saying it won't work. I just don't know.


Perhaps with solar would help.


They're the right size, weight and price for our boat, but I am not ready to jump on this!


I've forgotten the batteries used by telco companies now that are solar powered, but they have a very short discharge time. I'l try to dredge up the article.
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Old 18-11-2018, 08:24   #11
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Re: NEW Dimension - LTO Battery from GWL Power

I could leave them in my boat over winter. They would be good for artic travelers.
They are for mobile purposes https://www.ev-power.eu/LTO-Cells/
- Better Anodes
  • Recharge efficiency of 98%
  • Highest energy to weight yet seen.
  • Able to store and deliver current peaks that are between 30 and 100 times that of ordinary lithium batteries.
  • Additional lithium-titanate nanocrystals on the surface of its anode and instead of the conventional carbon material that is used in normal lithium-ion batteries.
  • Because of this large surface are, re-charging the LTO battery is also very quick. The improvement in the surface area of the battery drastically increases the LTO cells general stability and further also improves the LTO technology safety.
  • lithium titanate batteries can be widely used in electric vehicles and charging stations, tourist coaches, yachts, wind and solar energy storage power
Electric Car Parts LTO


Wikipedia LTO



Some other LTO
http://www.kokpower.com/lithium-tita...teries-lto_c11
http://www.large-battery.com/special...rature-battery



I did search on the MIT Technology Review website for the new telco battery manufacturer who is supplying remote PV solar powered batteries that have a fast standalone discharge but are very efficient and cheaper. I could not find that article, but did find one on Silicon Nanontechnology to replace the anode, much like LTO replaces carbon (for the anode) with lithium-titanate nanocrystals,


See Sila Nano and https://www.forbes.com/sites/alexkna.../#342b53aa51be

I could not reference the MIT Technology Review articles because those are by subscription, but they are all good.
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Old 18-11-2018, 09:07   #12
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Re: NEW Dimension - LTO Battery from GWL Power

The EV Car 55Ah, 1-5C, 2.4V13.6L * 2.1D in 345 * 55 mm 4.3 Lbs. / 1.95 Kg, 20,000 Charge Cycles!

2.4v x 5 = 12.0v
5 x $202= $1010 or 55ah
$1212 x 4 = $4040

No way that I'd use these regardless.

Also LTO here
https://www.batteryspace.com/Lithium...e-Battery.aspx
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Old 18-11-2018, 12:04   #13
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Re: NEW Dimension - LTO Battery from GWL Power

Quote:
Originally Posted by alansmith View Post
Warrior, why would you say "we all have our opinions"....and then attack someone's opinion? John happens to be one of the guys who has a pretty sharp intellect and has contributed tons of information to fellow org members over the years i have been on here.

Perhaps it is your age...but from an old guy...it is not what you say...it is how you say it. Never a need to denigrate another's opinion. Debate and debasing are two different things. One method is sustainable as expanding the conversation and developing the discussion. The other is not sustainable because it creates bad feelings and marginalizes people's character...Your comments were interesting without attacking ....never a need to do that.
Yes we are all here to try and add to the collective wisdom.
John is as you say mostly a very generous contributor. However in his conserative approach, which I dont totally disagree with, was being a little 'dismissive' of this new possible variation.
Ok the reply was perhaps also a little defensive but I also see his point of wanting to explore possible new developments.
My suggestion is we all try and keep things on as positive contributions as possible.

Peace
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Old 18-11-2018, 12:33   #14
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Re: NEW Dimension - LTO Battery from GWL Power

A friend has bought a few Lithium Titanate batteries on ebay that were taken from a japanese EV but we could never get the BMS in the integrated battery packs to function.

The advantages:
An OMG charge rate!
Very high cycle life
Safe from thermal runaway... which likely explains the discharge rate (below)

The disadvantages:
Lower Voltage per cell
Limited discharge rate

Cool technology, but IMO it's best for something you can plug into and stuff alot of energy in fast. For my usage, my alternator would never tax the charge rating on the battery... and solar would be a positively be positively boring. ;^)
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Old 18-11-2018, 12:40   #15
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Re: NEW Dimension - LTO Battery from GWL Power

Interesting... the battery packs from the Japanese EVs don't seem to be available anymore, but they now have new batteries:

https://www.ebay.com/itm/NEW-Lot-6pcs-SCIB-TOSHIBA-2-3V-20AH-lithium-titanate-batteries-15-000-cycles/163374989506?hash=item2609e880c2:g:YR8AAOSwR8hacMJ Z:rk:1f:0

As an example the charge rate on these is 3C but the discharge is the same. Another advantage is they are supposed to be chargeable below 0C degrees, but I've never verified that. We were playing with them a few months back when it was warm. ;^)
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