NEW Dimension - LTO Battery from GWL Power

[john61ct]

Excellent detailed analysis.

Appreciate your willingness to spend that amount of time on the topic.

[nebster]

Originally Posted by john61ct

Excellent detailed analysis.

Appreciate your willingness to spend that amount of time on the topic.

Thanks; you bet!

[DeepFrz]

I do wish people would learn how to use the Quote system properly and to stop quoting all of very lengthy posts. It makes it very tedious to try and follow what might be an interesting thread.

[Wood]

Originally Posted by DeepFrz

I<snip> It makes it very tedious to try and follow what might be an interesting thread.

Yup. Much easier

[rgleason]

Warrier 90 : clarification

I thought the discharge curve applied to "self-discharge". I realize now that it does not. Sorry.
However that does raise a question about self-discharge.

[warrior 90]

THXs for the attention and effort

Originally Posted by nebster

To me, the issues with LTO look to be:

1. Cost. $650/kWh versus ~$300-450/kWh.
> Totally agree BANG for $$$$ compared to large LFP Prismatic... Sure Looser

2. Volumetric energy density. 104Wh/L versus 200-325Wh/L for LFP, or at least twice as big.
3. Specific energy. 74Wh/kg versus 100-150Wh/kg for LFP, or at least a third heavier.

> About Dimensions: My files might be a little out dated but in that aspect Diesel fuel is still the most efficient for mobile house and mobile marine application. Is it true ?
Where it gets even more controversial and interesting is the combination with ESS ((Energy Storage System) > Batteries
But before we go to the next level first I want to respond to Your comments

Ref.
Diesel 10,72 WH/L - 12,66 WH/K
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Energy...eference_Table

YTube > Deisel Electric Propulsion VS Hybrid Deisel Electric Syetems

YTube > Lagoon 410 Electric Propulsion 9Kw Motors explained PT2 Waypoint

Downloads - Hybrid Electric Marine Propulsion
* Down Loads
* Technical data
Evaluation of competing hybrid technologies, Download, PDF, 112kB
Summary of sea trial results, Download, PDF, 52kB
Full technical report for sea trials, Download, (PDF, 957kB)


4. Cylindrical cells. These are small and harder to work with for a DIY build. Do these things come in bigger form factors?

> I have seen little packs of LTO rectangular cubes but can´t find anything on big packs on both of them. The only ref to applications I can find is in buses, public transportation etc. and I asume that must be very big packs. As far as DIY ? Yes cylinders need a different approach but looking, their is nothing that we don´t already know or that can scare me away.


The advantages seem like they probably aren't going to outweigh the size and cost drawbacks, but let's list 'em anyway:


1. Cycle life. Well, is 30k real? LFP can achieve >10k cycles, too, but only if you really baby them. What are the requirements to achieve 30k? Personally my opinion is that anything over about 5-6k is not meaningful... we'll all be dead or in new boats or using fusion reactors in 20 years. Probably in 10.

> Yeah, I agree, better new boat before dead
Hahaha, the baby made me smile))) Well, I guess there plenty of lessons about babysitting LFPs on CF. I hope we can skip the temptation

30K real ? I think it´s fair to say what drives innovation right now is range and liability and safety whereby the last is not always that convincing.
Maybe they think in terms of 3-5-10 cycles a day.

Can those cells produce 30K ?

Here > https://www.avmfg.com/vehicles/
They talk about 500.000 miles design life and tests of 12 years >
50 - 200 mile range ....That means long range and stop and go. It not clear how much the batteries get stressed

Here > https://www.avmfg.com/batteries/
LTO 95% @ 22.844 cycles
LFP 73% @ 2.000 cycles
Now here one could argue but I believe the steady commuter traffic is a real tough application for any battery chemistry. I assume at this level they documented their 12 year test to make such claims.
They say charge time under 10 minutes.
Well that´s about as much as it takes the dinghy to the beach and have a beer.
Now those guys that I believe manufacture the battery........ Yinlong > Advantage >

Yeah, HOT slogans...The term of closed loop industry is usually used when You wanna control the design of all the vital components in house for optimal results instead of compromising design by going out and using off the shelf components from others.
Now in either case I would assume the application is not intended for users that are in the mood to spend a lot of time and money on babysitting.
30K cycles. As in LFP a little babysitting can´t hurt but when we look at both designs I think it´s fair to say.... in regards to life cycles and charging time and there possible applications this is a new dimension.


2. Thermal operating range. This is nice, especially for something like an EV. If your battery compartment can't stay above freezing, this seems pretty handy. My sense is that most boats have space for batteries where the temp stays reasonable.

> Yes handy but let´s say.....relative depending on location


3. Thermal safety. This is nice, but LFP is quite safe, too. The real question is whether a charge event*(under or over) actually hurts the cell. If not, that might relax the requirements for battery monitoring a bit, since you could just resuscitate a cell or a pack if it falls over at some point.

> Safety.....There is always room for improvement but I am satisfied with the current level of LFP
> Charge events......let´s not forget there is a relation to safety

*(under or over) actually hurts the cell. ...... Yes, that´s the real challenge.
More relaxed....... that´s what the numbers say but I am certain as in LFP there are limits and that certainly needs more info.


4. Charge/discharge rate. Irrelevant for home ESS.

> INTERESTING TIMES, NEW DIMENSIONS ?¿?


5. Voltage level. Doesn't matter much for larger packs at 24V+, with modern wide-range inverter/chargers. LFP at 3.2V nominal is already small enough. Not sure at 12V how much 12V gear would struggle here.

> From a standpoint that most boats come with standard 12 volt and many alternators charge below 14 volts. With a 5 S configuration that might be of interest . For the bigger ones the 6 S could suite. Same situation with solar etc. that have a lead acid charge profile. However that comes with the price of a less efficient charge spectrum.


6. Voltage curve. I like that the curve is steeper: it makes state estimation easier for everyone. But this is a pretty small nice-to-have.

> Yeah, that´s an expensive sweetener


My quick, crude verdict is that this isn't a viable competitor at this price and volume point for mobile systems at scale.

Well, let´s come back to the life and dead and 30K cycles.
1. CYCLE LIFE
Now we have a completely new situation. I would estimate 30K is more then the service life of our diesel engines.
How would 30K and 10 minutes charging time affect our situation if we have to replace an engine ?
Well, let me help You a little

Now I am a little afraid of the next level because I only pretend to talk about LTO batteries and for sure I don´t wanna start a green debate.

Sorry, Spainsh and English...please use the google translators

https://www.motorpasion.com/revision...-diesel-espana

Don´t miss the last part
https://www.firmenauto.de/fahrverbot...-10236843.html

NO, this is not Fake News. It´s also not a Hollywood movie.
Now, let´s put this in the proper perspective.
Yesterday You financed a beautiful 100.000 SUV with a Diesel engine that´s gonna last You forever. It complies with the strictest government regulation and today You go to Your lawyer and the only thing he can tell You is... You have a very serious problem !! It is estimated that some 30% of the total registered personal vehicles are affected. A similar caos is to be expected all over the EC. Of course for the boys this is big business. So last week Volkswagen announced an investment of 50 Billion to built electric cars. Of course BIG thanks to this new situation. Now all those cars have to be replaced.
But that´s not all. They also announced to go partner with FORD. Now I wonder if this is because in the USA there is also an EPA ? I still can´t believe all this BS is happening. Well future will show.

Now there might be some around here that think this is all very far away. Well THXs God I am also in this fortunate position. However I have 3 cars with diesel engine in A1 shape sitting in the EU. One I need to get in and out of my hideaway when the weather is nasty. One I Love to move around. Yeah absolute beautiful piece of engineering, 8 cyl, Bi Turbo, first ever built Diesel Engine for the luxury class in Germany built by BMW. That was also a game changer at the time and a come back of the tractor engine. And last my RV in case there is a change of plans... a Winnebago, EC model 220V hahaha, with Hum Vee engine. Well, I thought that´s plenty of wheels to get to the graveyard. But now I find myself with this Christmas present.

Well, there is another little joke to the Diesel engine....
Digging deeper in the in the black hole of the headlines I find a sad commentary of a guy that lives near the river in the center of town. So when You navigate up the Neckar River the last navigable port is Stuttgart and almost across the street is the Holy Grail, the oldest Factory of Mercedes Benz.
He wrote......
Somehow it all sounds strange. I miss the proportionality when on the one hand cars with diesel engines are no longer allowed to drive into the city, but on the other hand, on the federal waterway Neckar continue to sail "ships" driven with heavy oil through the environmental zone.

My first thought was that our Marine Diesels are also regulated by the EPA. Well, so far on the water there is nothing to be concerned but what about when one of those days I wanna go in a marina or port that´s inside of an environmental protection zone ?
Well, I don´t wanna call the devil but I know.... there are lot´s of fashion oriented slicks in high places and they love to cover their shirts with green medals. They also love to put a big red sticker on Your bud to let everybody know that You are an outlaw and a criminal. Of course nobody wants to talk about the impact of the battery and recycling industrie,.... and that You were breathing Diesel fumes all Your live soon will be forgotten.
Do You understand the difference between having the choice... hahaha Yeah that´s the green sticker....... or being obligated .. Yeah, that is the red one, Comes with a list of extra $$$ because You are a criminal poisoning the world. Yeah, another headache when deciding registry and flag
Now You might think I see ghosts.... FACT is.... RIGHT NOW thousands of cars in the EC go to the recycler everyday and there is no escape.
Ohh No, they will not stop there. They are already blowing smoke and the gasoline engine is the next one on the list.

But now I wanna stop it right here!!!!!!
and get back on track.....no further wasting time on this ugly topic.


Your point 1 ..... CYCLE LIFE

> The question was... what is the situation when I have to repower ?...
a new Diesel engine ??
I swear on diesel engines for Marine application and together with a good sized LFP bank it´s ideal.
But let´s think for a moment... What would the situation be without Diesel propulsion ?
Well, You have Your electric motor and Your batteries have to get charged, same as filling the tank...Yeah, and a Big Green Sticker and cheap electricity. Now there are two ways You can charge. One is on board with all Your renewables and hopefully a gen set. I doubt that we will have a "DECENT" cruising speed RANGE any time soon with only renewables. The other one is plug in on shore, well 30 amp ? Now there are some on YTube that think out of the box and they get a lot of views on their page but what about going down the ICW or You like the Grant Loop ? Reality is, most of us stop and fill up the tank and that´s it. But now let´s have a look at the picture, when You have no engine, no alternator.

With LTO it´s almost a piece of cake.
With LFP it will take forever. They are simply not designed for that kind of abuse. The heat is destructive for LFP chemistry.....> Cycles
Will the LTO batteries come close to Service Life of a Diesel engine under those conditions 30K ?
There is plenty of evidence the LFP does not.
Will LTO Batteries deliver what they promise ? Well, then it´s Game Changer.

Now again.... You have to repower Your boat TOMORROW taking under consideration ALL aspects....

Diesel engine ? Electric ?,....... OR NO BOAT !!!

Did I forget anything ? Yes, it´s not funny...$$$$
No, I am not here for entertainment

THXs for the attention

PS: Lot´s of Cats out there with engines getting close to end of service life

[rgleason]

Warrior 90
I've got your point. Hopefully I'll be sailing on this boat at 90, twenty years from now. You're suggesting that many new diesels including mine will be at EOL and we will be prevented from entering certain harbors and destinations, and then at that point we will want LPO instead of LFP because of the need to charge faster.


I've exaggerated here about time frame, but maybe at that point I'll just remove the engine install a small electric motor and maybe more LTO and unroll two very high efficiency 25-30% SolarPV membranes when at anchor. Then when I am sailing, I'll tie those to the top of the dinghy and simply tow the dinghy away from shadows. Or maybe we have SolarPV paint....?


It doesn't hurt to consider a long horizon, and its pretty sure that diesel will be used differently in 20 years. Think of human nature... My father in law wanted the heat turned up. I suggested we should conserve. He responded "To hell with that, I'm cold, that's your problem."



So what are we going to do? I think we are going to make it work, somehow, and we will adjust when we can.

2. Thermal operating range. This is nice, especially for something like an EV. If your battery compartment can't stay above freezing, this seems pretty handy. My sense is that most boats have space for batteries where the temp stays reasonable.

> Yes handy but let´s say.....relative depending on location

[john61ct]

I did not realize the proposed used case was Electric Propulsion, whole 'nother can 'o worms already beaten to death afaic.

And I was not able to decipher the relevance of the diesel side track.

As before, best of luck whatever you decide to do, and keep us posted!

[rgleason]

I have to remove LFP in the winter. Leaving the batteries in the boat would help!

[warrior 90]

[QUOTE=john61ct;2766020]I did not realize the proposed used case was Electric Propulsion, whole 'nother can 'o worms already beaten to death afaic.

Well, I am beginning to think that there is a BIG list of things that You don´t realize about the possible new dimensions of LTO batteries.

Unfortunately so far I can also SEE , that You are not the most productive member on the team to find out.
Looking at all Your statements in regards to the debate "LTO batteries" the only thing I can find so far on Your behalf that is relevant in Your comments....................?

[QUOTE=john61ct;2762707] LFP is the **only** non-lead chemistry I've seen recommended for mobile House energy storage, by people I've learned to trust.
The rest is an **empty page**

Just my opinion. I don´t know about others.


And I was not able to decipher the relevance of the diesel side track.
> Well, just trying to take under consideration what You mentioned at the beginning of this debate.

Originally Posted by john61ct

However, most members here are still learning / figuring out optimal usage of the various **lead** chemistries.

> As a prime energy source Diesel fuel is still KING in important aspects for the recreative marine application even so there are negative aspects. IMO it is important to keep this in mind because I can buy it at any corner of the world. Taking under consideration all aspects of this debate I thought it might come in handy with a quick click to show and compare, for people that come here and don´t have that much time for the details but need a firm info to confirm their thoughts.

As before, best of luck whatever you decide to do, and keep us posted!

Well THXs, at this stage discussing with other members on CF that are interested in comparing the different battery technologies available with LTO (Lithium Titanium Oxyde) batteries for possible application on boats.

[witzgall]

Here is my post about LTO from last year:
http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/...ry-187508.html

I have not really gotten to test the batteries in a meaningful way yet, as work has taken precedence. Over the winter I hope to get a high output alternator (Balmar of course) and the BMS installed, but I have so many boat projects I don't know if it will happen.

Chris

[warrior 90]

Originally Posted by rgleason

Warrior 90
I've got your point. Hopefully I'll be sailing on this boat at 90,

>Hahaha well, better watch the diet and flying with the spirit 19


twenty years from now. You're suggesting that many new diesels including mine will be at EOL and we will be prevented from entering certain harbors and destinations, and then at that point we will want LTO instead of LFP because of the need to charge faster.

> I can NOT suggest. I can only observe the situation and analyze the possible risks. IMO the problem is not the risk. The problem starts when You don´t know how to handle it. So when You are at the end of the road and You have that feeling in Your guts that some pieces of the puzzle are missing and there is a lot of smoke... my advice > follow the money and ask Yourself if You have asked the right question.
There are also some other ways to analyse risk, hahaha but You have to tune Your nose. There is a weird smell in the air.... almost like roasted chicken.
Off course You can only smell it if You turn in the wind.

I've exaggerated here about time frame,
> Well, at that stage I hope You know the weather forecasts are not always that reliable. Watch the clouds

but maybe at that point I'll just remove the engine install a small electric motor and maybe more LTO.......
> IMO if You have a good diesel then I wood not worry.. just keep a close eye on the situation. If You think this could affect You in any way I would take it under consideration for Your toughts and decisions. Unless Your engine is in really bad shape, I would think twice and carefully evaluate. Sometimes it´s better to live with the devil You know then dreaming with angels. I think the combination of the good old Diesel engine with a good sized LFP is at this stage still the option, until we can confirm LTO batteries are the best way to go. Please be a little more patient. I believe comparing is the right approach to find out where we get the .......

MOST BANG for $$$$

At this stage first let´s be conservative and have a close look. There are still a few loose ends. Let´s find the proper documentation and technical specs sheets. Those docs are out there. Because of Insurance issues in this world they all have to comply with quality standards like ISO, ASTM, MIL Spec etc. We don´t have to jump in a black hole.

However, if You have to repower anyway or wanna buy a new boat then the situation is a total new ball game for BUYERS AND SELLERS. Personally I would also evaluate my skills. Is it easier for You to deal with all the aspects of a Diesel engine or electric propulsion ? Don´t forget it´s also important to have good tools.


For me there are 3 general new factors with LTO compared with !!all other chemistries!!

1. With 30K (?) life cycles the LTO battery can come close or outlast the service life of a Diesel engine.

2. Charging Time is close to that of filling up the tank. If that is true, than we should be able to use our boats like in the good old days. Just go to a dock or marina > FILL HER UP
Additional we would get all the added benefits of LFP batteries already identied on CF and more or less under control + some extra sweeteners that we might not have even given enough attention yet.
Hopefully LESS BABYSITTING

3. OFF COURSE I did not forget the THERMAL OPERATING RANGE


and unroll........... ?????????
> Sorry, I skipped Your next lines. Hahaha, I also almost could not resist !!!
but "please" let´s try to stay on track, OK ?

It doesn't hurt to consider a long horizon,
> Yeah, INTERESTING TIMES)) Healthy attitude is the best insurance policy.

and its pretty sure that diesel will be used differently in 20 years.
> I have lost ALL my doubts

Think of human nature... My father in law wanted the heat turned up. I suggested we should conserve. He responded "To hell with that, I'm cold, that's your problem."
> Yeah, that is a very, very, very controversial situation
Hahaha, "to hell with all the BS and icy HOT sensations. ))
Let´s play)) the sun and the wind are still for FREE.
Hopefully now we finally have the missing piece

So what are we going to do?
Well John once mentioned
>> "expedition vehicle / RV / campervan usage will come first by the bleeding edge early adopters."<

> I still believe best is FIRST do a good home work and analyze well.
IMO that is the best medicine to avoid excessive bleeding.

I think we are going to make it work, somehow, and we will adjust when we can.
> Well, with the adjusting sometimes I have my issues. What do I need the technology for if I have to adjust. In the first place technology should adjust to us and our needs or did I miss a lesson ? I will translate. 99% of the smart phone user do not use more then 1 % of the capacity. They also don´t have any use for it. However, they are obligated to PAY FOR IT !


I think we are going to make it work, somehow, and we will adjust when we can.

Off COURSE WE GONNA MAKE IT
Stay tuned and Hahaha .... FLY UNITED with SPIRIT 19
and make sure You don´t miss the plane

[warrior 90]

Originally Posted by rgleason

I have to remove LFP in the winter. Leaving the batteries in the boat would help!

Sorry, did not give the subject more attention till now and of course You have a point. That really is an issue.
But I wanna try to get to the big things first before I rattle the can too much with details. Game Changer is just such a BIG word.

Yes, the BABYSITTING ? Seems to be an issue with A L L battery chemistries.

Possible Loss of charge while in Low Temp condition / Self-Discharge Rate ?
Everybody covers their rear recommending by saying > ideal temp 25ºC
So now there is this new feature by Reliance. The battery protects itself to prevent that You can charge the battery when in low temp condition

YouTube > RELiON's New Low Temperature Series Lithium Battery Explained

But how about the Self-Discharge Rate "while" in Low Temp conditioning ? They all say nothing happens while the battery is ON ICE but what about if the battery gets below the recommended SOC (state of charge) during the long winter month, while the boat is in storage sitting somewhere abandoned under a load of ice and snow, while the owners are hundreds of miles away ?

Yes, Better to be safe then Sorry or maybe those expensive batteries don´t last much longer than Lead Acid!!!

Yes, the babysitting can be a real Pain in the X
Specially, like many feel a little nervous with all the wires, switches and the little space and the HEAVY batteries. Well, and when You have to call the professionals)) Autsch!!! You have another additional cost TWICE for getting the batteries first out and and then back in EVERY YEAR !

But their is also another story that comes to my mind in regards because that actually happened to me. So I was living in this beautiful apartment, fenced community, decent security. I got to the car in the morning and wanted to start but it was absolutely dead. I thought now that is weird. Just recently bought a new battery. Finally I decided to get out in the rain and open the hood. I could no believe it.....HELL, there was no battery!!!..... Hahaha Yeah, "Go ahead... Make my day !! but there was nobody in sight. Then I had to get a taxi and buy a new battery...GrrrrRRRR, that was a 200 $ ride for breakfast.
Lot´s of boats sitting on the hard more or less abandoned in winter time. Stories about dinghies and outboards that disappeared right of the stern while the owners were sleeping. Now those batteries are quiete small compared and could very well exceed the value of a dinghy with outboard.
Well, those are 2 cases that are very difficult to respond but I found some ideas that might give us more precise info... specially as to how to approach Self-Discharge in Low Temp condition.

Please stay tuned and watch close. I have those events on the list.

[warrior 90]

Originally Posted by witzgall

Here is my post about LTO from last year:
http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/...ry-187508.html

I have not really gotten to test the batteries in a meaningful way yet, as work has taken precedence.

Chris

Hi Chris and BIG well come to FLY UNITED with Spirt 19))
After all YOU ARE PART OF HISTORY

But what happened ? the Baby died on the way ?
Yes, I had a DEEP look at Your question))

LITHIUM TITANATE, THE NEXT GREAT CHEMISTRY ?
http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/...ry-187508.html

Yeah, what a petty....Where did the Italien Batteries come from and then the WET CELL NiCads that can´t be bought nowhere..... Are You kidding me. Yeah that must be a joke. Hahaha. Reminds me of the times when I was still peeing in the diapers.
Well, BOYS and GIRLS. That was on the 10th of JULY 2017
when Chris asked the same Question on CF..... and NOW it´s November 2018
Is LTO Litium Titanium OXYDE Chemistry a GAME CHANGER ?

That is very fortunate You are here because last year 2017 You obtained 5 units 24v lithium titanate modules, commonly known as LTO, that were manufactured by Altairnano. I asume You are talking about those ones, Right ?
http://www.witzgallphotography.com/f...60ahmodule.pdf

and those are the Pouch Cells inside
http://www.witzgallphotography.com/files/60ahcell.pdf

Too bad last Year in July I was not on CF. I had Altairnano on my table in the year 2006 / 2007 if I remember the time frame correct. They had kind of a Lithium UPS for small laboratories to back up there experiments, I remember also some story for farmacies. Unfortunately I did not digg deeper and the pieces are missing but before we go further I thought about a brief little introduction for all the kids out there searching the dream that might come by one day on the internet searching for answers to the questions. I hope that´s OK with You.

So whenever some EXPERIMENTERS come out of their laboratories with certain claims of miracles, products, there are some ways to proceed because this world is big and lot´s of miracles are false dreams. In order for anybody to believe them they need a credible institution to back up what they claim.

Introduction to SPEC Sheets.

So for example in the last line of this SPEC sheet
http://www.witzgallphotography.com/files/60ahcell.pdf
it says.....
Design Standards >>>Transportation specification UN 3090 and UN 3480 compliant.
That means this battery had to pass the tests proceedures of those 2 UN Standards. If You are searching for more details of what tests this batteries had to pass and more, for example....
>>> just go to the internet and type UN 3090.
But more then that, when You see a Spec sheet like that it means that those batteries have already past all those test. So it´s ready for the market and has coverage by insurance companies if You use this product "according!" to this specification. It is also possible that a battery can be used in several different forms. Well, then it´s required to pass another set of tests of a different specification.... for example in the aircraft industrie.

Where do those standards come from ?

They are elaborated on an international level by comissions of goverments that have to agree to apply those standard.

Who are those institutions that are authorized to apply those standards ?

Well here is one of them))) Follow the money and have a close look how the system works and think about how You can use it to Your advantage to answer questions. If somebody tells You I have the best there is always an official piece of paper and there is also another paper that goes with it like an official stamp.

That is the MSDS ( MATERIAL SAFETY DATA SHEET )

Yeah, it´s really a PETTY !!!! This YouTube video has only some 3.600 views and only 2 comments.

But more then that, it´s from the YEAR 2010.....
Hahaha Yeah, that was the time after the big storm 2007/2008 when Preacherman Bernake was at the steering wheel and we enjoyed the best of Obama Care..........

Hybrid V Battery Testing Lab

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MRacm-GEmh0

Chris, right around minute 6:05 there are two dark boxes on the floor. Now go to Your modules. Yeah, at least on Your spec sheet even the rivets look the same.

rgleason, what do You think about that freezer and what the man had to say ?

Hahaha Yes, that was 2010 and the boys had to pull down there pants if they wanna play.

Well, that is a missing piece if You know what they are talking about, but now it´s 2018 and technology has advanced and we have to find the missing pieces to find out how serious they are about LTO.
Seems like the man receives a lot of pressure. Of course there is the Lead Acid industrie worried about there business. Must be a treasure what this man knows. Watched this video many times and I can´t help it, I have the impression the most time he spend was with the little grey boxes on the floor that we wanna know more about. What do You guys think about this video ? Well, of course I know that is not a scientific question but it´s part of my "follow the money" strategy. I believe one thing is true, What this guy knows unfortunately we will never know and now we are in November 2018. Well, think of the Gate Keeper. Yeah, for example there is this HOT debate about Carbon Foam, a special formula for Lead Acid but the man does not seem to really wanna waste much time with that. Basically he shows all his testing equipment and then after he goes to the little grey boxes on the floor and then he starts making a special note about the freezer. I wished I could translate what this man was trying to say "without" words ??

Well, here I find another independent source for info. There is not much we don´t know already about LTO is ... they are expensive

However they compare the different types of Lithium!!
https://batteryuniversity.com/learn/...ased_batteries

Look next... the graphics LTO. Shows best results on the graphics of what interests us most .... comparing the different Lithium chemistries...
Life Span - Performance - Safety

Yes, they are also the most expensive but that is not relevant for our question at this point. We wanna know if LTO is the game changer. The price is another book and at this stage NOT relevant.

Figure 13: Snapshot of Li-titanate.
Li-titanate ! excels ! in safety, low-temperature performance and life span. Efforts are being made to improve the specific energy and lower cost
https://batteryuniversity.com/learn/...of_lithium_ion

Bottom of page it says ....Last updated: 2018-05-31

I also read the comments below but after May 31 there is nothing worth while. Everybody kicking around LFP but almost nobody talking about LTO. I come more and more to the conclusion that not many people know about LTO and just blowing smoke because expensive. Yeah, just blind opinions and not really paying attention to the fundamental questions.

Well, Chris , what is Your opinion so far ? You have some LTOs. What is Your verdict so far ?
Are they really planning the big change or just blowing a lot of smoke and we are wasting our time ?
Till now all my indicators tell me that something is waiting behind the bushes.
Can´t help it... that smell... when I hold my nose in the wind, smells something like close to roasted chicken ?¿?¿ Can not be dealt with using the usual parameters. If we want answers we first have to find the right questions.

Good to have You on the team))) Hope You can find the time

Hahaha, Fly United with Spirit 19

PS: Matt and You have made a great start. Would be cool if he also shows up. I agree for 24 volts I would also use 11 S but for 12 volt it seems the trend is.... Hahaha 6 packs. Gotta be awesome for anything, motor, pump,water maker, windless, winches, thruster, anything high load....maybe the rest has to be downgraded a little with 12 volt but IMO that would only mean more stable energy for sensitive electronics etc. when the big loads come online. Just imagine the variables with Elec. Propulsion when docking. How are You doing with 24 Volt ?

[Dwayne Lister]

For what it's worth at this point,
Ii am running a LTO bank in my cat. I have gone with a 5S design at the moment, although that may change.
My cells are 2.4v nominal so 5x = 12v - this is on the low side for consuming devices which expect 13.8v nominal, but 6x = 14.4v which is a shade high.
I will experiment at the lower voltage and work from there.

Charging has been the issue & i am currently developing a custom alternator controller in order to manage both the charge voltage and the alternator temperature - running at high currents for prolonged periods (more than a few mins) is hard on the alternator.

My cells are prismatic pouch cells rated at and are rated for 5C charge rates -that's scary!!

Generally alternators expect to charge LA batteries, and charge rates drop fast - result slow charge, but happy alternator!

The LTO cells will eat whatever the alternator can feed and come back for more! - net result, over heated alternators unless we get clever.

Discharge wise my LTO cells are good for 10C charge rates - so far in excess of anything I can throw at them. Incidentally, overcharging is not a serious issue - i did this to a set of cells on the bench, without any major issue.

the alternator controller is just a variation of the general smart controller, but more concerned with the alternator temps than with the batteries - these will eat whatever you can give them. Specs say 90% charge in 6 mins - if you can provide the power - I can't.

The discharge curve is effectively flat to 90% DOD, which beats LA into a cocked hat and doesn't suffer from Peukert's law impacts at high loads unlike LA.

Net result - my LTO pack can do

nominal capacity 180A/hr – at any rate
Weight = Approx 30Kg
Max charge rate = 900A ( you can go from 10 to 100% in under 11 minutes – if you can supply the juice!)
CCA (Equiv) = approx 2700A
Life expectancy > 10,000 cycles ( something over 27 years at 1 full cycle per day at over 90% original capacity)
Usable capacity Approx = 191 A/hr

as a comparison
Mastervolt 12/160 AGM battery (Group 4D)
Nominal capacity at C/20 = 160 A/hrs
Weight = 42.3Kg eack (x2 = 84.6Kg for 320 A/hr)
Max charge rate = 45A (charging takes a Loooong time)
CCA (max discharge) = 870A (to SAE spec)
Self discharge rate = approx 1-2% per month when new up to 2% per WEEK when near end of life.
Life expectancy at 50% DoD = approx 700 cycles assuming 100% recharge each time
It is worth noting that 100% charge takes a considerable time.
Approx usable capacity = 160 A/hr


I know which I prefer :-), but each to their own.

Regards

Dwayne