New boat - 110v or 240v ?

[john61ct]

I had no intention of implying whatever you may choose to infer.

[Hartings]

Originally Posted by sailingforfun

I'm not an electrician, but I will just share my own practical experience. First boat was 110v because we are American and that is what someone suggested. Took delivery of our new catamaran in France and was informed 110v would not be available anywhere in Europe. The suggestion was to buy/install a converter so we could plug into 240v while in Europe. Probably the best $12,000 we spent knowing we could go anywhere and plug-in.

Once we arrived in the Caribbean, 240v was more prevalent then 110v, so we always plug into 240v. Eventually we arrived in the US and 240v was always available so we plugged into 240v even while in the US. (yes, the hertz were different, but we never had an issue with any appliances)

Bottom line, we had a 110v boat and never plugged into 110v service. Just put an order in for a new catamaran and this time we are going with 240v and not incurring the $12,000 expense of a converter. Our experience was 240v was available everywhere, but not always 110v.

Thanks - this is what I thought / hoped and hence why I’m pleased the yard will build us a 240v system. I presume all our appliances will need to be 240v 50Hz ? I read somewhere that 110v 60Hz appliances may have problems - especially those with internal timing systems ?

[Hartings]

Originally Posted by john61ct

Are you going to be living away from shore power much of the time?

If so, happy running the genset many hours per day when doing so?

Yes, to both questions but wouldn’t anticipate having to run the generator for too long - we will have substantial solar power too

[ebs001]

Originally Posted by Hartings

I am in the early stages of contracting to build a 45’ catamaran. The yards stock boat is 110v. 60Hz. They will build a 240v 50Hz system for the same price as the 110v system. The boat comes pretty well loaded from the yard with generator / watermaker / full navaids package / aircon / microwave / TV etc.
I’m from the UK and intend to use the boat as a liveaboard going Med / Caribs / Pacific. What are the pros and cons of 110v versus 240v ? If I elected to go 240v what issues should I be mindful of ? Should I ask them to retain the usual wire as I understand 110v wiring is higher gauge / safer than 240v equivalent ?
I’m a bit of an ignoramus on electrical issues - any input from the resident experts here would be appreciated.

Since most, if not all, of your boating will be in areas using 240 volts it only make sense that the boat be wired for that voltage. The problem is not the voltage but the hertz. In the Americas the voltages are actual 120/240 but 60 hertz. In other areas power is 230 at 50 hertz. The voltage can be raised or lowered using a transformer but the cycles remains the same. For any resistive load this is not a problem but motors do not like a different cycles. So you will be able to run your toaster but not your air conditioning or a washer/dryer. It would be a huge waste of money to wire a boat with both systems on the off chance you may want to plug in you toaster some day.

[Hartings]

Originally Posted by Kenomac

Our boats are 110v 60hz wired but also have 230v 50hz inverters onboard in addition to 110v 60hz inverters. They can plug in and charge anywhere in the world without an issue or having to use a converter. The generators are 240 60hz. Small European appliances can be used via the inverter or a plug adapter.



The only thing.... all major appliances need to be purchased as 110v 60hz or 240 60hz models except for the waterheater which is 230v 50hz.



I’m not certain, but I don’t believe everything works out as easily if the boat was wired 230v 50hz from the start since the major wiring would all be smaller and grounded differently. The breaker panel wiring would be completely different.

When you say ‘240v 60Hz’ do you mean ‘240v 50Hz’ ?

[Hartings]

Originally Posted by Stu Jackson

There have been a series of discussions about how to work with these choices on this very forum in the electrical section.



Indeed, in all of the many boating forums I read regularly, THIS is the ONLY one where knowledgeable folks explain the options.


Rather than me or anyone else suggesting you do a search, here's what I recommend: Go to the electrical forum and read a few dozens pages in of thread titles. It will soon become apparent to you which ones you should read in detail.


There are many options for you, in installation, equipment and operation.


I think all those have been discussed relative recently. Many of the threads are from folks coming or going to & from the US to EU and address your questions [perhaps not specifically for new builds], but I believe by reading about what others have experienced will help you with yours.





I keep repeating when I read this gem: None of us was born an electrician. We ALL had to learn it.


Good luck, and all the best with your brand new boat, not too many get that opportunity.

Thanks - I did have a quick browse before I posted largely because I couldn’t find anything on a newbuild - I will have a more detailed look.

[Kenomac]

Originally Posted by Hartings

When you say ‘240v 60Hz’ do you mean ‘240v 50Hz’ ?

Here’s the Westerbeke data sheet, it’s presently running at 10kw 60hz. 120/240v

You’re getting some bad advice on this forum, you need to consult a US based electrician IMO, the EU guys won’t know. You can’t just plug in a 240v 50hz pug into an American 240v dock socket. The wiring and connections are different. I don’t believe your wiring would be able to handle the American increased amperage.

[Steve_C]

Originally Posted by sailingforfun

Just put an order in for a new catamaran and this time we are going with 240v and not incurring the $12,000 expense of a converter.

What Catamaran did you go with this time?

[Hartings]

Originally Posted by Kenomac

Here’s the Westerbeke data sheet, it’s presently running at 10kw 60hz. 120/240v

Thanks - I note it can run at 220v 50Hz but the air supply needs to be increased

[a64pilot]

Originally Posted by nwdiver

As noted above, it is easy to use 110 wiring for 240 not the other way around, most of the world is 240, have them install the wire gauged for 110 run 240 through it and if someone down the line want 110 it's an easy switch over.......if the wiring is not in place it's a pita....

This is I think the best answer.
As far as hz rate generator wise, it’s usually just an RPM adjustment.
Ken’s generator is running at 1800 RPM, should be desire 50Hz, he can slow it down to 1500 RPM.
Many items can be had that work just fine on 50 or 60 Hz.
Even many times some specifically state they work on either Hz rate. Your vacuum cleaner or washer will run slightly slower or faster.
Timing wise, that’s old style electric motor type clocks and timers like on old fashioned washing machines, I believe most newer appliances timers are digital as that’s less expensive and easier.

Every US appliance I took to Germany the mid 90’s worked fine, the old fashioned clocks ran way slow of course.

It’s important to realize that European 220V differs from US 220.
Europe’s 220V is 220V on a single hot line, for this reason the wiring gauge can be smaller and still carry the same power.
However US 220V is two 110V lines, which is an entirely different animal.

There is a work around that I believe is against standards etc but works, that is to power the hot line on a European wired boat, with one 110V line and power the neural with the second 110V line, that provides a pseudo 220V power supply.
I still can’t get my head wrapped around how that works, but I’ve been on a Super Maramu where I saw it working.
Of course you cannot tie your neutral and your ground together obviously.
I’d assume that work around may not work with a GFI breaker, but don’t know.
However the most conservative response is to be wired for 110V, that way your wiring is oversized for 220V. Which just provides greater safety, but if for some reason you wanted to change to 110V, it’s a whole lot less expensive if the proper size wire is there.

[redsky49]

[QUOTE=Kenomac;2945253]Here’s the Westerbeke data sheet, it’s presently running at 10kw 60hz. 120/240v


Hunh... Is this user configurable? You can change back and forth?

[john61ct]

Originally Posted by Hartings

Yes, to both questions but wouldn’t anticipate having to run the generator for too long - we will have substantial solar power too

OK, then here's my unorthodox reco.

Big universal charger(s) that accepts universal power, anywhere in the world. That is the only* connection to shore power, charging the House bank. Charger easily plugged into onboard genset otherwise.

All load devices selected to be as energy efficient as possible, as much as possible fed by the native DC of your House bank system.

When inverters are required because loads must be AC, their number and sizing also such so as to be as efficient as possible, some even specific to a given load device, turned on and off together.

Side benefit, lower costs and redundancy, able to purchase 120 or 240, whatever Hz you desire at the time.

Outlets to suit - DC for USB, 12V, 19V for laptops, 120VAC, 240VAC placed as needed / desired.

* Aircon units may be wired separately, low cost switching between onboard genset and shore power. Not likely to be run off battery bank / inverter when in mostly-solar mode.

The key philosophy here is to design for high efficiency, to keep to mostly-solar as much as possible, and minimize genset runtimes to a minimum.

Rather than designing as if plugging into cheap shore AC power is the norm.

[a64pilot]

[QUOTE=redsky49;2945266]

Originally Posted by Kenomac

Here’s the Westerbeke data sheet, it’s presently running at 10kw 60hz. 120/240v


Hunh... Is this user configurable? You can change back and forth?

Most all generators, even my baby Nexgen can be wired for 220V or 110V, that is just how you connect the generator is all. Hz rate is a function of RPM.
So to change 110 or 220, you will be changing wiring, but to change Hz rate that’s an RPM adjustment.

I assume that is done so that one generator can be sold world wide

[Hartings]

Originally Posted by a64pilot

This is I think the best answer.
As far as hz rate generator wise, it’s usually just an RPM adjustment.
Ken’s generator is running at 1800 RPM, should be desire 50Hz, he can slow it down to 1500 RPM.
Many items can be had that work just fine on 50 or 60 Hz.
Even many times some specifically state they work on either Hz rate. Your vacuum cleaner or washer will run slightly slower or faster.
Timing wise, that’s old style electric motor type clocks and timers like on old fashioned washing machines, I believe most newer appliances timers are digital as that’s less expensive and easier.

Every US appliance I took to Germany the mid 90’s worked fine, the old fashioned clocks ran way slow of course.

It’s important to realize that European 220V differs from US 220.
Europe’s 220V is 220V on a single hot line, for this reason the wiring gauge can be smaller and still carry the same power.
However US 220V is two 110V lines, which is an entirely different animal.

There is a work around that I believe is against standards etc but works, that is to power the hot line on a European wired boat, with one 110V line and power the neural with the second 110V line, that provides a pseudo 220V power supply.
I still can’t get my head wrapped around how that works, but I’ve been on a Super Maramu where I saw it working.
Of course you cannot tie your neutral and your ground together obviously.
I’d assume that work around may not work with a GFI breaker, but don’t know.
However the most conservative response is to be wired for 110V, that way your wiring is oversized for 220V. Which just provides greater safety, but if for some reason you wanted to change to 110V, it’s a whole lot less expensive if the proper size wire is there.

Thanks for this. One of the reasons for my question is that I want to check with the builder
that all the electrical equipment will work just fine with 220/240v 50Hz - it seems the major issue may be the aircon - am I right ?
Apart from that I request he retains the usual 110v compliant wiring as that will make no difference to me but may have some (minor) benefit when I come to sell the boat ? Is 110v compliant wiring sane as UK with live / earth / neutral strands ?

[Kenomac]

Originally Posted by a64pilot

This is I think the best answer.
As far as hz rate generator wise, it’s usually just an RPM adjustment.
Ken’s generator is running at 1800 RPM, should be desire 50Hz, he can slow it down to 1500 RPM.
Many items can be had that work just fine on 50 or 60 Hz.
Even many times some specifically state they work on either Hz rate. Your vacuum cleaner or washer will run slightly slower or faster.
Timing wise, that’s old style electric motor type clocks and timers like on old fashioned washing machines, I believe most newer appliances timers are digital as that’s less expensive and easier.

Every US appliance I took to Germany the mid 90’s worked fine, the old fashioned clocks ran way slow of course.

It’s important to realize that European 220V differs from US 220.
Europe’s 220V is 220V on a single hot line, for this reason the wiring gauge can be smaller and still carry the same power.
However US 220V is two 110V lines, which is an entirely different animal.

There is a work around that I believe is against standards etc but works, that is to power the hot line on a European wired boat, with one 110V line and power the neural with the second 110V line, that provides a pseudo 220V power supply.
I still can’t get my head wrapped around how that works, but I’ve been on a Super Maramu where I saw it working.
Of course you cannot tie your neutral and your ground together obviously.
I’d assume that work around may not work with a GFI breaker, but don’t know.
However the most conservative response is to be wired for 110V, that way your wiring is oversized for 220V. Which just provides greater safety, but if for some reason you wanted to change to 110V, it’s a whole lot less expensive if the proper size wire is there.

Above.

This is the best answer for the OP. He needs to wrap his head around the idea that with American heavier gauge wiring, the boat can be made to work everywhere in the world. With 230v 50hz smaller gauge and different wiring... not so easy and much more expensive to modify to work in America.