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Old 09-09-2017, 13:07   #61
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Re: New Balmar Alternator Charging Question

Does anyone know what year Balmar introduced the "belt manager" utility into their VR's? I willing to bet it was right after the Argentine government nationalized the Prestolite/Indiel factory and Balmar could get those 80A/110A small case alternators with dual internal fans anymore. They had to find a different supplier and the amperage and heat issues increased.

As A64Pilot said they are not 100% duty cycle cases much above 100A.
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Old 09-09-2017, 14:29   #62
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New Balmar Alternator Charging Question

Not just Balmar, I believe almost all small frame alternators are based on the same alt, then rebuilt, modified etc to different specs.
I do not believe this to be a Balmar issue, but a small frame alternator issue.

My theory is it's like increasing the power of a small block Chevy, enormous amounts of power can be made, but there is a very real continuous limit that is well below what can be made intermittently. For continuous high power output, you need a big continuous duty engine, reason of course why big trucks don't run small block Chevy motors, even though a small block Chevy on the drag strip produces way more power than a big truck, just does it for 10 sec or so

For continuous high output, I believe we need a big alternator, just many of us can't fit them as there is no room.
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Old 09-09-2017, 15:42   #63
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Re: New Balmar Alternator Charging Question

Interesting article in latest issue of Goodoldboat: "Ramping up...."
Good Old Boat - Articles Search
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Old 09-09-2017, 16:42   #64
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Re: New Balmar Alternator Charging Question

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Not just Balmar, I believe almost all small frame alternators are based on the same alt, then rebuilt, modified etc to different specs.
I do not believe this to be a Balmar issue, but a small frame alternator issue.

My theory is it's like increasing the power of a small block Chevy, enormous amounts of power can be made, but there is a very real continuous limit that is well below what can be made intermittently. For continuous high power output, you need a big continuous duty engine, reason of course why big trucks don't run small block Chevy motors, even though a small block Chevy on the drag strip produces way more power than a big truck, just does it for 10 sec or so

For continuous high output, I believe we need a big alternator, just many of us can't fit them as there is no room.
You're right. Which is exactly what Dockhead has been saying for the past year or more, right here.

Somebody earlier mentioned rocket science. He was right, this ain't it!

Same size case, and most likely bearings, but a bigger output means what? Is that your question, a64? I'm not an alternator-construction expert, for that you'd have to go to Maine Sail.

All I have been documenting and linking are my "use of the available." Take what products are out there, and use them as simply as possible, examining the OPTIONS of operation and management.

My conclusion was, uhm, simple for me: instead of using the cumbersome reed wand to re-program my alternator, and reduce its output throughout its range, I use SEM to reduce the load when the unit needs to do bulk charging, and then kick it back to 100% when the load is lower after bulk.

That's all.

A 165A alternator, WITH THE EXACT SAME LOAD, should, I say should, run cooler than a 100A alternator. In my links I explained how it appears that with my nominal 400ah house bank at 50% SOC, the acceptance of the batteries is between 50A and 70A. In other forums, Maine Sail has confirmed this. So, SEM kicks this load down to 25-35A, easily handled by my 100A alternator, which would not be happy with a continuous 70A load. When the load (output), as read on my Link 2000, goes down to 25A I kick the SEM off, and the alternator puts out 50A.

If I had a 165A alternator, I most likely wouldn't have to bother with SEM. Read the links you'll see why I do this.

Pretty simple, so am I.
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Old 09-09-2017, 16:48   #65
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Re: New Balmar Alternator Charging Question

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Interesting article in latest issue of Goodoldboat: "Ramping up...."
Good Old Boat - Articles Search
Not available online.

If you're limiting DoD to 50% as you should, even with a large high-CAR lead bank and no overheating issues, doubling max alt current output will shorten the 50%-85% charge time by maybe 40 minutes, more likely closer to 20.

And you still have 4+ hours left, silly to do with dino juice.

So unless converting to LFP, money better spent on more solar, right?
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Old 09-09-2017, 16:55   #66
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Re: New Balmar Alternator Charging Question

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Not available online.

If you're limiting DoD to 50% as you should, even with a large high-CAR lead bank and no overheating issues, doubling max alt current output will shorten the 50%-85% charge time by maybe 40 minutes, more likely closer to 20.

And you still have 4+ hours left, silly to do with dino juice.

So unless converting to LFP, money better spent on more solar, right?
Yeah, john, but that's not what we're discussing.
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Old 09-09-2017, 18:57   #67
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New Balmar Alternator Charging Question

Why would a 165 amp alternator with the same load of a 100 run cooler?
Is it more efficient, or have better cooling?
Yes I would hope it would run cooler, but don't see how. It may be that it's real difficult to overheat an 80 amp alternator, but pretty easy to overheat bigger ones.
My 165 it seems is capable of about 80 amps continuous before heat gets too high, so it is in my mind an 80 amp continuous duty alternator.
What is a 200 capable of continuously if conditions are the same?

See I think an alternator is XX efficient in making electricity, the rest turned into heat. So if everything else is the same, how do you make more power without making more heat?

I guess the heart of what I'm questioning is what size alt gives you the most bang for the buck, there has to be a point of diminishing returns, where you start to pay big bucks for not much more power generation.
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Old 09-09-2017, 19:38   #68
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Re: New Balmar Alternator Charging Question

I believe that the higher output alternators in a given line do it with higher field currents. Since field voltage is limited to 14 volts or so for all these alternators, the way to a higher field current is to have a lower resistance winding (Ohm's Law). At a given field current - say the same a lower rated alternator would draw - that lower resistance winding will dissipate less power and create less heat.

How significant would that be when considering the overall heat budgets of a 150 amp small case vs a 100 amp small case? I don't know.
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Old 09-09-2017, 20:37   #69
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Re: New Balmar Alternator Charging Question

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Why would a 165 amp alternator with the same load of a 100 run .
It wouldn't....amps are amps heat is heat.
The logic of buying a larger output alternator and then running it at a lower amperage output is that the higher output alternators have internal parts that are supposedly built for those higher outputs and temperatures. So now your alternator should have a longer service life since you're not pushing it to the hairy Edge all the time.

In many ways alternators are kind of black magic to a lot of people because there's so many different things going on that can affect its output. Two identical alternators running at identical speeds can have vastly different outputs on different battery Bank types and sizes. In an Ideal world, alternator manufacturers should have amperage output curves for all the different types of battery chemistry and technology and different battery Bank sizes and at different temperatures, and different wire sizes.

Why don't they do that....well....I'm honestly not sure. Maybe it's a case of fearing giving the client too much data to just to confuse the hell out of them. Or because maybe it looks better to say 100 amp without then putting an Asterix with three pages of data describing while you're only going to get 50 amps in your specific configuration.
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Old 09-09-2017, 21:09   #70
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Re: New Balmar Alternator Charging Question

[QUOTE=SoonerSailor;2475028]I believe that the higher output alternators in a given line do it with higher field currents. Since field voltage is limited to 14 volts or so for all these alternators, the way to a higher field current is to have a lower resistance winding (Ohm's


What on earth are you talking about? Field volts are more like 4vdc.
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Old 09-09-2017, 21:15   #71
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Re: New Balmar Alternator Charging Question

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I believe that the higher output alternators in a given line do it with higher field currents. Since field voltage is limited to 14 volts or so for all these alternators, the way to a higher field current is to have a lower resistance winding (Ohm's Law). At a given field current - say the same a lower rated alternator would draw - that lower resistance winding will dissipate less power and create less heat.

How significant would that be when considering the overall heat budgets of a 150 amp small case vs a 100 amp small case? I don't know.
Well I don't know exactly but I do know the heat generated in the rotor windings (field) is very much smaller than the heat generated in the stator windings and the diode pack.

Basic electrical theory tells me so.
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Old 09-09-2017, 21:44   #72
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Re: New Balmar Alternator Charging Question

You guys ever wondered how Cruiser dock rumors get started? I believe we just witnessed the birth of one.
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Old 09-09-2017, 22:06   #73
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Re: New Balmar Alternator Charging Question

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I didn't recommend Mark Grasser's remote rectifier. I suggested looking at this one as an alternative https://alternatorparts.com/quicktif...rectifier.html
So, installing a external rectifier will remove the/some heat? Is this correct?

Personally I dont really want the alternator to put out more than 60amps, its alot of load on the single belt set up.
Ive seen a belt brake underload and lidge abit of its self in the front crank case seal resulting in a oil leak.

Like car motors, boats should have serpentine pulley setups, particularly considering the load we put them under....another wish list item!

One more question regarding Stu's suggestion at adding a toogle swith and limiting output. Can this be achieved with other smart regs other than Balmar?
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Old 09-09-2017, 23:04   #74
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Re: New Balmar Alternator Charging Question

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So, installing a external rectifier will remove the/some heat? Is this correct?
........
Now it is correct
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Old 10-09-2017, 02:33   #75
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Re: New Balmar Alternator Charging Question

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Maybe someday someone will make a liquid cooled alternator, meaning of course then you could mount the heat exchanger where you would have room, one day.
They already do. Bosch does and they are on BMW's.

http://www.industrialbearings.com.au...1339475227.pdf
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