Cruisers Forum
 


Join CruisersForum Today

Reply
 
Thread Tools Rate Thread Display Modes
Old 06-06-2014, 15:40   #16
Marine Service Provider

Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: South Carolina
Boat: Philip Rhodes Custom
Posts: 395
Re: mixing battery types in 1 bank

Quote:
Originally Posted by colemj View Post
Mixing flooded and AGM's can probably be done with impunity since their charging profiles are so similar and one almost never gets to the higher voltages that flooded will take for very long.

Mixing flooded with gel is a different story. I am surprised Andina didn't check herself on that post. If we mixed gel with flooded on our boat, we would surely ruin the gels within a couple of weeks, as the charge profile for our flooded batteries is an absorption voltage of 14.8V and we reach that often.

<SNIP>

Mark
Perhaps you didn't read my original post
Quote:
The only thing to watch would be the setting on a charger that allowed choice of battery type, in which case you should select one that is compatible with the most sensitive parameter, typically maximum voltage.
At a safe voltage for the gel batteries the flooded batteries will still get a full charge, on average it means about 5 minutes more at the lower voltage.
__________________

__________________
Andina Marie is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-06-2014, 17:43   #17
Senior Cruiser
 
colemj's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Presently on US East Coast
Boat: Manta 40 "Reach"
Posts: 10,049
Images: 12
Re: mixing battery types in 1 bank

Quote:
Originally Posted by Andina Marie View Post
Perhaps you didn't read my original post
At a safe voltage for the gel batteries the flooded batteries will still get a full charge, on average it means about 5 minutes more at the lower voltage.
Fair enough - I understood it better with another reading.

However, continually charging a deep cycle flooded battery at 14-14.2V will result in more rapid sulfation of it. And there isn't really a convenient way to equalize part of a bank regularly. Trojan really stresses 14.8V for their batteries, for example.

Mark
__________________

__________________
www.svreach.com

You do not need a parachute to skydive. You only need a parachute to skydive twice.
colemj is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-06-2014, 01:13   #18
Registered User

Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: On board in Alanya, Turkey
Boat: Hunter Legend 420 Passage
Posts: 626
Re: mixing battery types in 1 bank

Quote:
Originally Posted by Andina Marie View Post
....At a safe voltage for the gel batteries the flooded batteries will still get a full charge, on average it means about 5 minutes more at the lower voltage.
This is very bad advice - again - from someone who has been in the business for so long!

Any battery can get fully charged at even 13.2 volts, BUT they will not charge properly, and as colemj says they WILL sulphate and die prematurely.

Batteries need to reach their 'gassing voltage' when charging to help burn off the lead sulphate that forms as part of the discharge process. So the proper charging voltage is essential, and that is not always provided by the pre-sets available. Best practice is to have chargers that allow custom settings for absorption and float voltages - and follow the manufacturers recommendations.

_________
Ignorance isn't what you don't know, it's what you think you know that is incorrect.
__________________
sailinglegend is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-06-2014, 02:49   #19
Registered User
 
TeddyDiver's Avatar

Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Arctic Ocean
Boat: Under construction 35' ketch
Posts: 1,828
Images: 2
Re: mixing battery types in 1 bank

Smells like dead batteries very soon, of course if the boat is used only 6 hours every few months it doesn't really matter just float charging and they die of old age before any real damage been done.
Just out of curiosity, why?
__________________
TeddyDiver is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-06-2014, 03:31   #20
Eternal Member
 
monte's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Australia
Boat: Lagoon 400
Posts: 3,650
Images: 1
Re: mixing battery types in 1 bank

just to clarify, the boat is new, the batteries are new, the boat will be permanently running from the batteries charged via 1120W of solar. The 560Ah installed is a little on the low side for the power budget and solar capacity so I want to increase it to around 800Ah to give us 360Ah usable between charges. With fridge/autopilot/wm/nav gear consumption would be around 15A so we could run for 24hrs with no charging. I know the current bank would be ample for when at anchor, but I would like it to work when on 20-30 day passages without having to run engines.
__________________
monte is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-06-2014, 06:42   #21
Registered User

Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: W Carib
Boat: Wildcat 35, Hobie 33
Posts: 7,957
Re: mixing battery types in 1 bank

Wow, 1120W of solar and you're going with low end batteries? I suggest another strategy: invest in a complete good quality battery bank and sell off those "maintenance free" (AKA "impossible to maintain as needed" ) batteries.

Good quality, properly maintained batteries can last a long time. My house bank is now 10 years old and going strong. As often stated, batteries don't die, they are murdered. Mixing chemistries is just another creative way to murder batteries. And "cheap" batteries are false economy.

You do have a good solar regulartor right?
__________________
belizesailor is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-06-2014, 06:45   #22
Registered User

Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: W Carib
Boat: Wildcat 35, Hobie 33
Posts: 7,957
Re: mixing battery types in 1 bank

Quote:
Originally Posted by sailinglegend View Post

...
_________
Ignorance isn't what you don't know, it's what you think you know that is incorrect.
Great signature! That could be the subtitle for Cruiser's Forum! ;-)
__________________
belizesailor is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-06-2014, 08:30   #23
Registered User
 
TeddyDiver's Avatar

Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Arctic Ocean
Boat: Under construction 35' ketch
Posts: 1,828
Images: 2
Re: mixing battery types in 1 bank

Quote:
Originally Posted by belizesailor View Post
Wow, 1120W of solar and you're going with low end batteries? I suggest another strategy: invest in a complete good quality battery bank and sell off those "maintenance free" (AKA "impossible to maintain as needed" ) batteries.

Good quality, properly maintained batteries can last a long time. My house bank is now 10 years old and going strong. As often stated, batteries don't die, they are murdered. Mixing chemistries is just another creative way to murder batteries. And "cheap" batteries are false economy.

You do have a good solar regulartor right?
Concur! What you can do now is to use the current battery bank around 65% to 70% daily disharge rate and say goodbye when they run out of juice, maybe one year more or less and then replace them with better and bigger bank.
__________________
TeddyDiver is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-06-2014, 08:50   #24
Eternal Member
 
monte's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Australia
Boat: Lagoon 400
Posts: 3,650
Images: 1
Re: Mixing Battery types in 1 Bank

The ER660 batteries are not maintainance free, they have access plugs for checking acid level. I want to add similar batteries. The ER650 dont seem to have the plugs. As far as Im concerned lead acid is fine for now, I can't see a reason to change but glad to hear why anyone would think I should.. We had similar on our last boat and rarely had to add water, The regulator is Victron 85 150 MPPT so it will look after the batteries with regular equalization, although I do prefer to equalize manually so I know what is going on with gassing and high voltage alarms, as well as checking the fluid levels beforehand.
__________________
monte is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-06-2014, 09:00   #25
Senior Cruiser
 
colemj's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Presently on US East Coast
Boat: Manta 40 "Reach"
Posts: 10,049
Images: 12
Re: Mixing Battery types in 1 Bank

http://automotive.exide.nl/downloads..._2014%20v2.pdf

Are you sure those caps are removable? I mean, have you tried to remove them? Exide certainly markets those batteries as dual-purpose start/house sealed maintenance free.

If they are indeed all of that, then they are not the best choice for a heavy-usage house bank full-time cruising.

Mark
__________________
www.svreach.com

You do not need a parachute to skydive. You only need a parachute to skydive twice.
colemj is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-06-2014, 09:59   #26
Eternal Member
 
monte's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Australia
Boat: Lagoon 400
Posts: 3,650
Images: 1
Re: Mixing Battery types in 1 Bank

yes they are removable, I unscrewed on and looked in to check the fluid level. I guess I should just try match the Ah and A as close as possible with another brand. Thanks for that link Mark, thats the only mention of the ER 660 I have seen anywhere. I cant read Dutch though so not sure what they are saying about it.
__________________
monte is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-06-2014, 10:04   #27
Senior Cruiser

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Santa Cruz
Boat: Boatless Again
Posts: 4,331
Re: mixing battery types in 1 bank

Quote:
Originally Posted by sailinglegend View Post
This is very bad advice - again - from someone who has been in the business for so long!

Any battery can get fully charged at even 13.2 volts, BUT they will not charge properly, and as colemj says they WILL sulphate and die prematurely.

Batteries need to reach their 'gassing voltage' when charging to help burn off the lead sulphate that forms as part of the discharge process. So the proper charging voltage is essential, and that is not always provided by the pre-sets available. Best practice is to have chargers that allow custom settings for absorption and float voltages - and follow the manufacturers recommendations.

_________
Ignorance isn't what you don't know, it's what you think you know that is incorrect.
I mixed gel and FLA batteries for a season when FLA was all I could get in the Solomons. From my experience, charging FLA batteries at gel voltages (14.1v acceptance/13.6v float) will not 'murder' them, especially if you have solar so that the batteries stay over 13v all day.
__________________
donradcliffe is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-06-2014, 10:20   #28
Eternal Member
 
monte's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Australia
Boat: Lagoon 400
Posts: 3,650
Images: 1
Re: Mixing Battery types in 1 Bank

the standard charge algorithm for the victron controller is absorption 14.4 , float 13.8, equalisation 16.2@8% max 1 hr
__________________
monte is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-06-2014, 17:09   #29
Registered User

Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: W Carib
Boat: Wildcat 35, Hobie 33
Posts: 7,957
Re: Mixing Battery types in 1 Bank

Quote:
Originally Posted by monte View Post
yes they are removable, I unscrewed on and looked in to check the fluid level. I guess I should just try match the Ah and A as close as possible with another brand. Thanks for that link Mark, thats the only mention of the ER 660 I have seen anywhere. I cant read Dutch though so not sure what they are saying about it.
In that case, maybe stick with similar (absolutely nothing wrong with flooded in general) and see how they hold up.

Part of the reaction here I think is that Excide is known more for cheap batteries.

Try Google Translate on the Dutch.
__________________
belizesailor is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-06-2014, 19:29   #30
֍֎֍֎֍֎֍֎֍֎

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Apr 2006
Posts: 13,055
Re: Mixing Battery types in 1 Bank

Oh, DUTCH (?!) Exide batteries supplied in Oz....

If I may suggest, find out the correct charging voltages from Exide. Since different battery makers use different chemistries and those may vary a little, confirm that whatever conveniently similar batteries you are buying do have the same--or very similar--voltages. Odds are just about anything will be within 1/10th of a volt and that will still be somewhere between the optimums for both. As we say "good enough for government work".

Since what you have can be maintained--odds are you'll do just fine and six or eight years from now you can worry about what to buy, when that toxic lead is globally banned and obsoleted by lithium batteries. Which probably won't need expensive BMSes or be fire hazards by then, either. (G)
__________________

__________________
hellosailor is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
battery

Thread Tools
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Anchor types & Bottom types pbiJim Anchoring & Mooring 31 03-06-2014 21:38
Mixing 'types' of AGM batts?? John Drake Electrical: Batteries, Generators & Solar 18 13-12-2006 18:47



Copyright 2002- Social Knowledge, LLC All Rights Reserved.

All times are GMT -7. The time now is 02:25.


Google+
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Social Knowledge Networks
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.

ShowCase vBulletin Plugins by Drive Thru Online, Inc.