Lithium ion house battery bank disappointment

[Journeyman]

Originally Posted by 44'cruisingcat

There was 600 ah of AGM, now 400 ah of Winston lithiums.

The compartment which the AGMs filled, now houses the lithiums, as well as some tools and spare water, oil and fuel filters. And there's still empty space.

44' Cruising Cat,

I did the calculations with Winston vs our AGMs for same usable capacity per volume occupied. Winston LFE have only 19% more usable energy density. Not 100%. And the footprint they occupy takes up 12% more cabin sole space. Also, the AGMs are in a military spec case for vibration and heat.

So as above, I see LFE has no meaningful space saving advantage over our AGMs in our house battery application. Which is the issue I keep confronting.

Weight is the sole advantage. I am surprised.

Jman

[alctel]

Originally Posted by Hans Etter

Lithium batteries are superior to AGM, you can discharge them 100% and do that 3000-5000 times before they go down to 70%-80% capacity.

This is wrong - if you over discharge your lithium battery pack you will destroy it or at the least severely compromise the lifespan.

Originally Posted by Hans Etter

If you have a modern regulator where you can adjust the bulk charge, absorption charge and float charge there is no problem with changing over, the only thing you can not do is equalizing lithium batteries because that destroys them.
the following is for lithium batteries when you change the charging profile on your system.

Inverter Charger / Solar Controller: Most inverter
> chargers have a remote that can program the charging system
> to either lead acid, gel or AGM batteries. They will
> typically have a custom setting as well. Simply set the
> custom 3 stage charging as follows:
> >(If you do not have a custom setting choose the profile
> as close to this as possible without going over 15V)
> >
> >Bulk 14.4V
> >Absorb 14.6V
> >Float 13.6V

Again, this will destroy your batteries in short order. If you charge to 14.6 you have to stop all charging. This charge pattern is designed for EV use - i.e heavy discharge followed by heavy charging periods with a defined stop. It's no recommended for house banks at all.

For use as a house bank, mostly people set bulk to 13.8 and float to something like 13.2 to effectively disable charging (it depends on the system)

[Hans Etter]

Can you post the spec so we can compare side by side, They are after all apple and oranges.

Product Model LFP-200AHA
Nominal Capacity 200Ah
Nominal Voltage 3.2V
Weight 5.8±0.2Kg
Internal Impedance ≤0.4mΩ AC1kHz
Cycle Life ≥5000Times 80%DOD
Self-discharge rate ≤5% 25��, 1 month
Height 280±1mm
Dimension Width 180±1mm
Thickness 69±0.5mm
Standard Current 66A CC&CV
Charge
Max. Current 400A 2C
Limited Voltage 3.65V
Cut-off Current 6.7A 0.033C
Standard Current 66A
Discharge Max. Current 600A 3C
End Voltage 2.5V
Operation Temperature
Charge 0℃～45℃
Discharge -20℃～55℃
Storage Temperature -10℃~45℃
Storage Humidity 25%~85% RH

[Hans Etter]

That was the recommended charging profile for lithium batteries on three stage chargers. I can include the link and if you have anything that says any different please include it.

Quote. Zero Memory Charging : Smart Batteries are 99.1% efficient and have no memory. This allows you to drain the battery and re charge at any depth of discharge (DOD).
https://www.lithiumion-batteries.com...tery-chargers/

[DotDun]

Originally Posted by Hans Etter

Can you post the spec so we can compare side by side, They are after all apple and oranges.

Product Model LFP-200AHA
Nominal Capacity 200Ah
Nominal Voltage 3.2V
Weight 5.8±0.2Kg
Internal Impedance ≤0.4mΩ AC1kHz
Cycle Life ≥5000Times 80%DOD
Self-discharge rate ≤5% 25��, 1 month
Height 280±1mm
Dimension Width 180±1mm
Thickness 69±0.5mm
Standard Current 66A CC&CV
Charge
Max. Current 400A 2C
Limited Voltage 3.65V
Cut-off Current 6.7A 0.033C
Standard Current 66A
Discharge Max. Current 600A 3C
End Voltage 2.5V
Operation Temperature
Charge 0℃～45℃
Discharge -20℃～55℃
Storage Temperature -10℃~45℃
Storage Humidity 25%~85% RH

Are these the batteries you talk about in post #9 & #12??

If so, 5 of them (4 in service and one spare) is a total of 200AH @ 12.8V, not a 1000AH as you stated in post #9 & #12.

[Journeyman]

Hans Etter,

Would you mind starting a separate post on how to configure Li Ion batteries and take your discussion there?

Those details have been explored in excruciating detail in other posts on this site and plenty of people will join your discussion.

I would like to keep this thread very specific to the quantified merits of Li Ion versus TPPL AGM in marine house bank applications so I can make an informed decision.

Thank you very much for your understanding.

Jman

[Colin A]

7 years of going down to 30% DOD is pretty good going that low tends to shorten AGM life quite a bit. Most only go down around 50% and calculate Lithium going closer to 10%. That is likely the biggest difference your seeing.

[philiosophy]

With an all electric boat I wonder why you even want to use battery power and not a gen set.Seems like you made the decision to use massave amounts of electricity that will be virtually impossible to do with solar, wind, or anything else besides a generator. A nice start would be get rid of everything that uses elements to heat or cook with. Forget air conditioning. Or bite the diesel bullit.

[stormalong]

Originally Posted by Hans Etter

Lithium batteries are superior to AGM, you can discharge them 100% and do that 3000-5000 times before they go down to 70%-80% capacity.
They take half the space and half the weight compared to AGM batteries. It is not just the number of years your AGM last you if you never discharge them enough times. The most you can do without damaging an AGM is 50% and 400-500 cycles before you lose a significant capacity.
If one cell goes bad in a lithium bank you can pull that one out and put in a spare cell, compared that to an AGM if it is your starting battery, you would have to replace the whole battery.
The price I am getting the Lithium batteries is around $6000.00 plus custom for a bank of 1000 amp and that 5 batteries.
I quoted 7000-8000 for the difference in lithium batteries on the same amps that you would save compared to the competition in Lithium, not AGM.
Where would you get the same batteries six times over in AGM when you are cruising and the hassle of replacing them has to be considered as well.

My post said flooded lead acid, not AGM. Also, I have a built in battery box so space savings is moot - I would not put anything other than batteries in that box. I use eight Trojan T-105s plus an engine start battery and have bought them in the Caribbean and New Zealand. They are available world wide. Other than discharging too deeply flooded lead acid batteries are the most tolerant of abuse. They can get hot, they can get overcharged (to a limit) and not be damaged. No other battery technology is as resilient.

I also do not have to worry about runaway battery fires.

As for the comments about power consumption I have solar, wind and a drag prop generator and have made 18 day passages without needing to run the engine for charging. That is with electric autopilot and separate refrigerator and freezer systems. And the usual navigation and communication equipment.

I still cannot see a good reason to be an early adopter of Li-Ion battery technology. Too expensive and too risky.

[alctel]

Originally Posted by Journeyman

Hans Etter,

Would you mind starting a separate post on how to configure Li Ion batteries and take your discussion there?

Those details have been explored in excruciating detail in other posts on this site and plenty of people will join your discussion.

I would like to keep this thread very specific to the quantified merits of Li Ion versus TPPL AGM in marine house bank applications so I can make an informed decision.

Thank you very much for your understanding.

Jman

I switched to lifepo4 because I had a certain problem I needed to solve (how to get a bigger battery bank with limited space/weight available) and a lifepo4 bank was pretty much the only option (safe to have inside the cabin, half the weight of flooded and around 1/2 of the space as well). The increased discharge/charge efficiency is really just a nice bonus.

If your existing bank is working fine, then just use that. Else you have an expensive solution in search of a problem.

[Hans Etter]

The spare refers to a cell of 3.2 volt, a battery is made up of 4, 3.2volt cells, the total number of batteries are 5 and besides those 5 that makes 1000 amp. I suggested keeping one extra cell as a spare.

[Hans Etter]

I had 4 Trojan t-105 exploding in the trunk of my old Mustang when I hit a bump so led acid batteries that give of hydrogen is not really that safe either. The lithium batteries you refer to is Lithium cobalt, they can have a heat runaway, that is the kind that was used in the airplane that had lithium battery catching fire.

[DotDun]

Originally Posted by Hans Etter

The spare refers to a cell of 3.2 volt, a battery is made up of 4, 3.2volt cells, the total number of batteries are 5 and besides those 5 that makes 1000 amp. I suggested keeping one extra cell as a spare.

Sorry that's wrong, (4) 3.2V 200AH cells wired in series makes a bank of 12.8V with 200AH capacity, not 1000AH.

[Hans Etter]

Thank you for all the information you provided and I am done.

[Hans Etter]

The float charge is stated for a battery at 13.6 volts float charge. Limited Voltage 3.65, standard current 66 amp, per cell, that comes out to 5 batteries times 4 cell times 66 amp=264amp times 5 batteries= 1320 amp.