Lithium Batteries are SOOO yesterday

[senormechanico]

Originally Posted by nimblemotors

The latest is the government is trying to limit solar panels on houses, because too many people are putting them up and selling the power back to the grid to make a profit, and the electric producers are crying foul, and are getting the government to change their rules so people can only produce power for themselves. They can't stand competition.

The good news is you can power your electric car from your rooftop solar.

That is true from what I've heard from relatives in Arizona, but PSE here in Washington State LOVES us for putting in a grid tied system, as the tree huggers are making them tear out perfectly good hydroelectric dams.

elwha dam removal - Bing

I suppose that's to help the salmon population so the California Sea lions who immigrated here will have plenty to eat...

[jimbunyard]

Well so much for encouragement, once again the Dunning Kruger crowd spoil the party... but of course I retain faith that Hobbes and Darwin are right....hehehe!

[navy davy]

carbon dioxide is not dangerous because plant life would not exist without it and without plant life there would be no oxygen to breath. It is carbon monoxide that is poison and will kill you if you breath it. carbon dioxide myth is just a way for the government to control society that is easly fooled into thinking it causes global warming. The deforestation of earth is bad, not carbon dioxide.

[K_V_B]

Originally Posted by GoingWalkabout

By the way Im all for moving away from the use of lithium. It is a rare mineral that is used in making medicine for the mentally ill.

Lithium is actually one of the most common elements on the planet. It's not really that rare.

Originally Posted by Going Walkabout

How can a discussion on new battery technology be taken over by the Luddites?

In the face of already proven and being used new battery technology that is being successfully used on boats people are trying to turn a technology discussion into a fossil fuel discussion.

The thing that is getting in the way is physics, not luddites. Having a battery that charges faster is a non issue, as that is not the problem. The main problems electrification of transportation are:
- Price of the batteries.
- Delivery of electricity.
- Less importantly: Energy density.

It's interesting that it's exactly the battery price, and the energy delivery infrastructure that Tesla is trying to address.

After the cost the biggest issue is transporting the electricity. A battery that you can charge at 20C or even more is nice. But you won't be able to do this from a common household socket, or a AC hookup in a marina. Here physics plainly gets in the way.
So an even faster charging battery is moot in the context of transportation. Teslas come with a 85kWh battery. If you want to charge that in 10 minutes you need a 510kW charger. Not something you'd do in your garage.

If you are worried about Carbon Dioxide and Climate Change there is a very simple thing we can all do to mitigate this. PLANT TREES!!!! Either do it yourself in your garden or donate to charities that do this on a larger scale. One of the biggest impacts man has had on the planet is the destruction of the rain forests which are Earth's lungs. Restore these and we could halt the rise of CO2, maybe even reverse it if we plant enough trees.

Forest are only net absorbers of CO2 during the growth phase. Mature forests are carbon neutral.

Originally Posted by Saltyhog

This also assumes 100% conversion efficiency of the panels (unlikely to get near that in our lifetime),

Unlikely ever. Physics again...

Originally Posted by Lancerbye

Today an electric powered plane left Dubai for a world circumnavigation. Four electric motors, a lot of solar panels and batteries. They plan on doing this without using any fuel.

Interestingly they don't plan on storing a lot of electricity in batteries. The Solar Impulse (I've seen the plane, it's quite impressive) stores energy by climbing during the day, and then gliding down at night.

Originally Posted by nimblemotors

The latest is the government is trying to limit solar panels on houses, because too many people are putting them up and selling the power back to the grid to make a profit, and the electric producers are crying foul, and are getting the government to change their rules so people can only produce power for themselves.

It's not that they can't stand competition. It's that they don't like lots of independent producers switching on and off making it harder to keep the grid stable. The measures they need to take to accept all those inputs are quite expensive, but rather then being paid they are actually seeing less revenue.
If an utility wants to get rid of excess solar or windpower (as for example German or Danish utilities often experience) they actually have to pay for that. The fact the private households don't have to, and even often get guaranteed feed in tariffs is indeed something the utilities don't like.
The sun is shining in Bavaria. The panels are producing more electricity than is needed. The local utilities have to pay the Swiss to take all that excess power of their hands (and then again to get it back at night) and at the same time they have to pay all those households their feed in tariffs. Households that all have big SUVs parked in their driveways, so don't really care about the environment at all...

Originally Posted by Eddiefuego

Here in Iowa we got 37% of our electricity last year from wind energy.

I actually doubt that...

Originally Posted by Going Walkabout

In fact small scale nuclear reactors for regional power have been developed. As soon as they make one way rocket launches cheap enough to shoot radioactive wast into the sun we could see your miniature reactor for your home.

Oh we don't need to shoot nuclear waste in to the sun. Nuclear waste isn't waste. It's just fuel for the next generation of plants. Just store it and then reuse it.

Originally Posted by goboatingnow

Look at the " cashless " society. , etc etc. driverless cars are decades away , not because of technology, more to do with social and laws etc.

We are pretty far towards cash less here. I'm almost 100% paperless. And I am "car less" as well. Where I live on of the social changes I am seeing is that young people are increasingly no longer bothering getting a driving licence. You can't chat and drive at the same time.
Driver less cars could be the next big thing for that alone. And I thing that driver less cars, as a kind of taxi, where you don't own one, just call one when you need one could be the future. And they will probably be electric.

[GoingWalkabout]

Unless I'm on the wrong site I believe this forum is about boating. I don't understand why all this conversation about solar on houses in Bavaria or how fast you can charge your Tesla.

Facts are that new battery technology already being used on boats are far superior to lead. Pricy yes. Efficiency, by far superior. Then you have solar panels. My goodness the drop in cost has been substantial over the past few years. Not to mention the increase in power output efficiency. From 75Watts to now 350 to 400 Watts per panel.

Already you have boats complete electrics being powered by solar with the aid of the new batteries (non lead) out there.

Taking a cross ocean cruise with all your instruments, toys and kitchen appliances being used without the need of turning on your engine or generator to supply your power is a tremendous advance that is with us now.

Also I don't understand all this talk about diesel vs electric engines for sail boats. Who cares. If you are a sailor sail. Use the winds as of days of yor and use your motor whatever it is when parking your beast.

I could be wrong but seems like some people here are not sailors but use their sailboats as motor boats. Sad.

So getting back to lithium being soooo yesterday. Yesterday was lead batteries. Today s lithium but tomorrow now that I already know will be far better than lithium.

[Ex-Calif]

Originally Posted by GoingWalkabout

Unless I'm on the wrong site I believe this forum is about boating. I don't understand why all this conversation about solar on houses in Bavaria or how fast you can charge your Tesla.
<snip>

Also I don't understand all this talk about diesel vs electric engines for sail boats. Who cares. If you are a sailor sail. Use the winds as of days of yor and use your motor whatever it is when parking your beast.

I could be wrong but seems like some people here are not sailors but use their sailboats as motor boats. Sad.

So getting back to lithium being soooo yesterday. Yesterday was lead batteries. Today s lithium but tomorrow now that I already know will be far better than lithium.

ha, ha - Good one. The smiley indicates your entire post is in jest. If it is not...

This thread does happen to be in the engineering and systems forum and in the electrical and batteries sub forum.

If you feel that sailboats should not have auxilliary engines, batteries or what not might I suggest hanging out in the Seamanship Forum where you can talk about sailing off a lee shore.

If your intent is to come into a room and convince a bunch of boat system engineers that boats don't need systems, well, good luck with that.

[goboatingnow]

Originally Posted by navy davy

carbon dioxide is not dangerous because plant life would not exist without it and without plant life there would be no oxygen to breath. It is carbon monoxide that is poison and will kill you if you breath it. carbon dioxide myth is just a way for the government to control society that is easly fooled into thinking it causes global warming. The deforestation of earth is bad, not carbon dioxide.

True but simplistic. There are direct effects of all the man made carbon on the atmosphere, even if the scale of the resulting effects can't be yet agreed on.
( but not sidetrack )

Battery technology has moved incredibly slowly and I see no change in that

[goboatingnow]

Originally Posted by Ex-Calif

Regarding Joe public - "No one will ever need more than 1MB or RAM."



Everyone gets is wrong. To get it right make 100 predictions based on a "reasonable" set of paradigms. Some will come true and if you market yourself right you will be an Oracle.



Physics remains physics. Discovery remains discovery. I don't think we are done discovering stuff yet.



I am very hopeful for the future.







Which is why I will never have one. Not because it can but because eventually it will and then eventually wearing one will be required...



Power exists to primarily support power. Keeping a populace weak and scared is the primary goal of the government as an entity. That's not to say that there are people in government who want it to be different but it isn't different.







Protest and debate is what stops us from being stupid. When I see an empowered citizenry protesting I am heartened that we still have free speech and that our government "reacts" to the protest.



I may disagree with your position but I will defend to the death your right to express it.

I remain reasonably hopeful of the future too , but mainly because humans are very adaptable , especially in extremis

I don't beleive that any of this technology will relieve out daily burdens or improve our quality of life. Our children and their children will arguably work harder and longer then us

[goboatingnow]

Originally Posted by GoingWalkabout

Unless I'm on the wrong site I believe this forum is about boating. I don't understand why all this conversation about solar on houses in Bavaria or how fast you can charge your Tesla.

Facts are that new battery technology already being used on boats are far superior to lead. Pricy yes. Efficiency, by far superior. Then you have solar panels. My goodness the drop in cost has been substantial over the past few years. Not to mention the increase in power output efficiency. From 75Watts to now 350 to 400 Watts per panel.

Already you have boats complete electrics being powered by solar with the aid of the new batteries (non lead) out there.

Taking a cross ocean cruise with all your instruments, toys and kitchen appliances being used without the need of turning on your engine or generator to supply your power is a tremendous advance that is with us now.

Also I don't understand all this talk about diesel vs electric engines for sail boats. Who cares. If you are a sailor sail. Use the winds as of days of yor and use your motor whatever it is when parking your beast.

I could be wrong but seems like some people here are not sailors but use their sailboats as motor boats. Sad.

So getting back to lithium being soooo yesterday. Yesterday was lead batteries. Today s lithium but tomorrow now that I already know will be far better than lithium.

Your right , who cares. Whether you run l your toys from a fossil fuel generator or a big bank of solar, it matters not. Plenty of the stuff around

Dave

[K_V_B]

Originally Posted by GoingWalkabout

Unless I'm on the wrong site I believe this forum is about boating. I don't understand why all this conversation about solar on houses in Bavaria or how fast you can charge your Tesla.

It is relevant because a major advantage that was being touted for the new technology this thread is about was "faster charging".
Faster charging is not what we need. On a boat the charging sources are all low powered, so batteries that charge faster are not really needed.

The most important things for boaters are
a) price
b) total system efficiency

At the moment it would appear the for world cruisers the traditional approach, using a main diesel engine is best. Using Lithium in stead of lead acid is starting to become an option.

For day sailors however electrical propulsion is however a viable option. Especially in my country where boats need to pass an emissions test every couple of years, and when your boat fails to you need to re-motorise. If you're on a lake and anyway always return to the same port electric propulsion is perfect.

[goboatingnow]

Originally Posted by K_V_B

We are pretty far towards cash less here. I'm almost 100% paperless. And I am "car less" as well. Where I live on of the social changes I am seeing is that young people are increasingly no longer bothering getting a driving licence. You can't chat and drive at the same time.
Driver less cars could be the next big thing for that alone. And I thing that driver less cars, as a kind of taxi, where you don't own one, just call one when you need one could be the future. And they will probably be electric.

Driverless cars reminds me of the 90s obsession with AI , or domestic robots.

The changes in infrastructure and law that will be required to support any significant use of driverless cars will be profound and will take a very long time to come. Even today in free use medium , like air or water, we do not allow driverless operation, even though technology has been capable of doing so on airplanes and boats for a while now.

again people mix up the availability of a technical solution and the implementation of such solution .

for example , we have the technology to implement a cashless society, yet people are remarkably reluctant to give up cash. Infact a piece of modern technology is responsible for more cash in use then ever before , the ATM.

A car is not just a means of transport for many people, it is also a lifestyle choice, a statement of status, and other things. Driverless case may suit those that eschew cars, but in fact today they have alternatives in taxis , and public transport . Its hard to see what driverless cars will actually bring to the party.

in reality the legal framework around who takes responsibility will I suspect severely limit the adoption of this form of robotics.

[downunder]

Originally Posted by K_V_B

It is relevant because a major advantage that was being touted for the new technology this thread is about was "faster charging".
Faster charging is not what we need. On a boat the charging sources are all low powered, so batteries that charge faster are not really needed.

The most important things for boaters are
a) price
b) total system efficiency

At the moment it would appear the for world cruisers the traditional approach, using a main diesel engine is best. Using Lithium in stead of lead acid is starting to become an option.

For day sailors however electrical propulsion is however a viable option. Especially in my country where boats need to pass an emissions test every couple of years, and when your boat fails to you need to re-motorise. If you're on a lake and anyway always return to the same port electric propulsion is perfect.

I believe that for world cruisers nowdays solar charging is becoming the best option for charging. We are now seeing plenty of installations over 1kw solar and diesel becoming very much secondary charging.

[Ex-Calif]

I believe we will see "driverless" commercial airliners before driverless cars. And it's not that far off while I believe cars are.

There are big advantages to driverless cars.

My pilot friends hate me for saying that.

[goboatingnow]

There are big advantages to driverless cars.

so who is responsible in such crashes, Apple and Google.

I know that technically pilotless airlines can be achieved today. I dont see any serious moves to allow them

[rwidman]

the protests over US nuclear reactors has essentially stopped all construction of nuclear power plants in this country.

Originally Posted by Ex-Calif

Protest and debate is what stops us from being stupid. When I see an empowered citizenry protesting I am heartened that we still have free speech and that our government "reacts" to the protest.

No, protest and debate is what makes people stupid. As in the quote above yours.
The general public is dumb enough about technology that they are easily scared away from it. Or led to it in the case of electric (uses no fuel) cars.