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Old 08-03-2015, 18:39   #16
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Re: Lithium Batteries are SOOO yesterday

Does this mean we get to re-open the coal mines?
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Old 08-03-2015, 18:47   #17
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Re: Lithium Batteries are SOOO yesterday

The magic of refined fossil fuels is the W/kg , ie the energy density. We are still along way from getting near the average W/kg of such fuel , using batteries. , even more of an issue is W/m3

The issue isnt electric propulsion , it's energy storage in weight and size


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Old 08-03-2015, 18:50   #18
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Re: Lithium Batteries are SOOO yesterday

How can a discussion on new battery technology be taken over by the Luddites?

In the face of already proven and being used new battery technology that is being successfully used on boats people are trying to turn a technology discussion into a fossil fuel discussion. Very weird thought processes indeed.

So we already have amazing new battery tech being used. We now have even more ground breaking battery technology coming.

Whether or not the new battery tech will replace fossil fuels is not the issue. What we ard already seeing is the use of new battery systems coupled with solar if not halving doing away with the need for running fossil fuel generators to power all the toys on a sail boat. This is a huge advance in boating and even greater advances are ahead.

So Luddites. Close your eyes to what is already reality and protest against new technology while the more enlightened reap the benefits of technology.
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Old 08-03-2015, 20:11   #19
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Re: Lithium Batteries are SOOO yesterday

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Originally Posted by zboss View Post
New battery tech entering production this year to be used in electric vehicles charges 20x faster, has almost the same energy density of Lithium, is cheap, does not heat up, and is environmentally safe as its only material is carbon.
Zboss, that article you reference is nearly a year old. Anything new since then?
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Old 08-03-2015, 20:13   #20
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Re: Lithium Batteries are SOOO yesterday

No magic there at all. We can create methanol from electricity that is essentially just as energy dense. It just COST MORE.
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Originally Posted by goboatingnow View Post
The magic of refined fossil fuels is the W/kg , ie the energy density. We are still along way from getting near the average W/kg of such fuel , using batteries. , even more of an issue is W/m3

The issue isnt electric propulsion , it's energy storage in weight and size


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Old 08-03-2015, 23:43   #21
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Re: Lithium Batteries are SOOO yesterday

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Zboss, that article you reference is nearly a year old. Anything new since then?
Listen, I'm not trying to convince anyone that this particular technology is the way of the future, I'm only reporting some news. However... Its a start up phase company so the technology is still being developed.

The World Association Former United Nations Internes and Fellows, Executes a Memorandum of Understanding with Eco-Planet and POWER JAPAN PLUS, INC.

Here are some others:

http://cleantechnica.com/2015/01/15/...mpanies-watch/

I bet this guy feels they have enough power generation and storage to get around the world:

http://time.com/3736858/fueless-flig...re-borschberg/

All those that claim that new battery/tech have never fulfilled their promise needs to turn over their iphones and go back to typewriters, since obviously the lithium the batteries, the touch screen, the voice recognition, the 30 gigabit wireless, and the 128 GB of storage that fit in the palm of your hand don't exist.

As far as infrastructure goes, there is a wrong assumption that a replacement phase needs to occur. That somehow we need to first dismantle existing infrastructure before moving to something new. Disruptive technologies appear almost spontaneously and take industry and society by complete surprise. 20 years these days is a long long long time to develop something and new tech businesses simply doesn't work that slow anymore.

Technology is accelerating so fast that the next 5 year period will produce as many scientific breakthroughs as we have developed in sum since the bronze age. I'm not a complete believer in Kurzweil's "Law of Accelerating Returns" for consumer products but its certainly true for highly scientific endeavors.

So, like I said, I'm not saying that THIS particular battery is going to be fruitful, only that you need to think back 20 years ago... think back to 1995 - the days of the 150 Mhz pentium processor and then think... how will my kids power their boats in 2035. You better hope its carbon batteries and solar power because fossil fuels are a dead end.
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Old 09-03-2015, 00:12   #22
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Re: Lithium Batteries are SOOO yesterday

Zboss,

No one is arguing that technology will change, or that it is changing. But that despite a lot of labratory breakthroughs in battery technology in the last few years no one has brought to market anything really new. I will be celebrating along with you when it happens, but until someone brings these things to market its all vapor ware for now.

Elin Musk is building a billion dollar Li battery plant to build the next generation of battery packs. When adressing the issue of new technology he mentioned something to the effect that Li is what we have now, and while his new plant is designed to incorperate new technology there isn't anything else ready for prime time yet.
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Old 09-03-2015, 00:30   #23
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Re: Lithium Batteries are SOOO yesterday

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New battery tech entering production this year to be used in electric vehicles charges 20x faster, has almost the same energy density of Lithium, is cheap, does not heat up, and is environmentally safe as its only material is carbon.

Its in production in small quantities right now and being tested in the electric racing field. Oddly... its looks like A123 batteries that Apple just acquired engineers from (and nobody can figure out why and speculation is that Apple is entering the electric car market) might have a relation to this technology.

Power Japan Plus Reveals New Dual Carbon Battery | Power Japan Plus
Great. At my house, 110V 15A is the supply. Can't charge faster than about 1600W.
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Old 09-03-2015, 01:39   #24
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Re: Lithium Batteries are SOOO yesterday

One kind of important thing that technology has not done (and we can be pretty sure will not do) is repeal the laws of physics or economics.


For transport, liquid fossil fuels will remain, because of convenience and economics, the power source of choice for at least the next 20 years. There's lot's of inertia built into the system...
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Old 09-03-2015, 02:05   #25
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Re: Lithium Batteries are SOOO yesterday

Somewhere between burning a carbon atom and splitting a hydrogen one is the energy level we need. Preferably without the resultant glow in the dark side effects.

Someone will figure it out.
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Old 09-03-2015, 02:22   #26
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Re: Lithium Batteries are SOOO yesterday

How many batteries will this need? Would they weigh more than the payload (350 tons)? They're gonna need something like this to haul the carbon to make the batteries to store the power that they're generating to fill all those batteries to run...equipment like this. Or maybe we could use a mini nuclear reactor with steam power generation, like the US Navy?



Yeah, I'm being a little facetious, and I'm all for conservation and 'tree-hugging', but a little pragmatism and understanding of the 'bigger picture' is a good thing, and... the point is valid.

Ex-Calif: I feel that the technology is, for the most part, figured out, the problem is logistics. I agree, it will be worked out one way or the other...
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Old 09-03-2015, 06:29   #27
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Re: Lithium Batteries are SOOO yesterday

Technology is developing at an alarming pace... It's pretty hard in many (most?) cases for the end user to keep up with it all. And while the new tech is better and has more features of course... it obsoletes a lot of functioning tech which was cutting edge yesterday. And let's not forget about the cost of all this!

I've lived through the development of electronic navigation... and upgraded at quite an expense and am NEVER current. Yet when I look back I see how much more capability the tech level I am at was so far superior to what I was working with.

It's clear that electronics are now infused into almost everything we do and so it also needs to be powered. How we move to high tech hi efficient power sources / energy storage is the big question. It would be wonderful to get rid of burning stuff to make things move.

I can't even imagine the world in 50 years.
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Old 09-03-2015, 08:24   #28
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Re: Lithium Batteries are SOOO yesterday

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Originally Posted by onestepcsy37 View Post
Zboss, that article you reference is nearly a year old. Anything new since then?
Zboss, my question was just that, a request for an update. I spent my entire working life in high tech so I am well aware of the incredible advancements of the past fifty years.

In 1966, a disk drive for a mainframe computer was the size of a washing machine and had 10 megabytes of storage; the thumb drive on the table next to me holds 32 megabytes and its not even the biggest one.

In 1968 the company I worked for introduced the first fully automated blood analyzer. It performed 12 tests on a 3.5ml sample in 9 minutes. Prior to that, tests were manually done and could take up to 3 days and required up to 100ml of blood. It revolutionized hospital laboratories. It was the size of three washing machines; today there are tabletop analyzers for doctors' offices.

I could go on but I think others here could tell similar stories....
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Old 09-03-2015, 09:01   #29
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Re: Lithium Batteries are SOOO yesterday

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Someone laughed at me when I made the prediction that within 20 years we will have a boat that is 100% powered by solar and electric and will run at hull speed indefinitely
you forgot that it will also have refrigeration and and AC as well
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Old 09-03-2015, 09:32   #30
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Re: Lithium Batteries are SOOO yesterday

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Thanks for your post. Yes amazing things are happening on the battery front. I work at the other end of battery applications. Miniature electronic devices. It just so happens we are evaluating a solid state battery technology out of Japan that stands to make lithium obsolete in small devices. Looks like Japan is stealing a march in next gen battery tech.

Much of what is now going into production will hit over the next 12 months.

Great efficiencies and substantial cost reductions are fantastic.

By the way Im all for moving away from the use of lithium. It is a rare mineral that is used in making medicine for the mentally ill. Given the increase of mental illness in our world I am sure we will need all the lithium we can get our hands on to treat the ill. :big grin:
I need more lithium and swallowing those batteries is hell.

Good post as was the OP. Interesting link. I guess we will have to wait and see?
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