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Old 03-02-2014, 11:19   #61
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Re: LiFePo4 for DUMMIES

Highland,

You are missing the point. Mainsail has given/written everything you need to know about how to do LiFePo4, and do it safely.

What he can't do is make you understand. You need to know why each and every devices is needed, and why each and every wire is connected to it's specific terminal.

You need to know why each and every aspect of voltage in/out, amps in/out mean.

If you were to read only the post made by Mainsail. Make a listing of each of the parts he has listed, then go to the manufactures site and download the specs and instruction manuals for these devices.

You will have all the required information to build a FAULT TOLERANT LiFePo4 House Bank.

Now to do this you will need to educate yourself in more then the basics of electrical circuitry. You will need to educate yourself the requirements of proper skills of marine electrical, that means wire, connections, and ABYC compliance.

DIY LiFePo4 isn't for DUMMIES. It is not Plug and Play. Neither is Marine Electrical.

Lloyd

Quote:
Originally Posted by Highland Fling View Post
Actually i don't.

I have already read the 126 pages and got a headache. Now 128 pages at my last look.

LiFeP04 are no more dangerous than any other battery system and yes i know about the exploding lipo batteries as i fly RC planes.

I had assumed that we all were here to help one another, seems strange to me that there are limits on that......having looked at your web pages i find this reply decidedly odd and strange.

I have no doubt i can build a 'good' LiFeP04 system - BUT like i said previously i hate reinventing the wheel - to my mind life is too short for that.

I truly and totally don't understand that reply BUT hey your life your choices, myself i am quite willing to share all and anything i know about any topic with A N Other who asks for my help.

I am going to go through the long thread and copy all the posts, i have already copied almost 100 of them, and once i have them all i will review them and then cut out the too technical info and try and get back to basics in a nice condensed version of that thread.

For sure without any more assistance from yourself i will get there, I just don't understand that mindset - where is the difficulty in specifying a typical basic set up and then one with all the bells and whistles. You have done your research but will only share it in ways that meet your needs not actually others needs. Just think you could save many many people hours and hours of reading day weeks of research but somehow you think they need to follow you down the research it yourself route......suggesting incorrectly of course is that this is the only way they will 'better' understand their system.

The mind boggles!!!
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Old 03-02-2014, 11:22   #62
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Re: LiFePo4 for DUMMIES

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Originally Posted by Cotemar View Post
I can agree with Maine Sail's post # 32 as to the knowledge you need to make a boat with LifePO4 house bank work safely. He has posted tons of great information and pictures which has helped me understand these batteries much better than I did just a few years ago.

My only issue is that as a LifePO4 student, the training manual is written like my little sisters diary. Itís deep and all over the place at 3,547 posts to date.

A new CF member coming into the LifePO4 thread today is treated to data overload trying to get through that thread.

If it was in categories it would be just like a book with chapters starting with and index and vocabulary.

Then when one wants to build a LifePO4 house bank, they can just do their reading and follow the chapter they need when they need it.
Could not agree more

HOPEFULLY i will do this ASAP

wont be tomorrow or next week

BUT

watch this space
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Old 03-02-2014, 11:34   #63
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Re: LiFePo4 for DUMMIES

David,

I think you might be basing the size of your bank through your experience with lead acid performance. I come from the same camp before lithium, and trust me when I say that whatever size your lead bank was, you will enjoy the same usable a-hr from a lithium bank of 1/2 the size. There have been many cruisers on the forum that have gone from 900 and higher a-hr lead banks to just (4) 400 a-hr cells in series for 400 a-hr @ 13 volts. They all report much improved performance. When you run both of your induction cook tops together (that is how I cook) you could be pulling 150+ amps and due to Peukert effect the lead bank gives up a lot of its capacity on any load higher than the 0.05 C that they got their a-hr rating from. We have shown through testing that even when the LiFePO4 are subjected to a 1.0 C load, they will still deliver their a-hr rating with a 20% reserve. Combine this with the ability to cycle to 80% DOD vs 50% DOD of lead, and it is easy to see why 1/2 the capacity of lead can deliver more.
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Old 03-02-2014, 11:42   #64
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Highland Fling View Post

MORE

OKIDOKI.

A few issues rather unsurprisingly.

One we have 11.25” of height available BUT only around 24” x 24” of footprint.

Looking at the 195Ah 3.2V 10C Power Style, LiFePO4 Lithium Prismatic Batteries, HiPower LiFePO4 Li-Ion EV Battery, 7.2L * 2.8W * 10.7H in

We don’t have a big issue with the height BUT if I wanted to set them out as follows.
FOUR Banks of 195Ah connected in parallel to give me 780 Ah. I cant connect them physically as left to right groups of four cells
[] [] [] [] [] cells 1-4......[] [] [] [] cells 5-8.....
[] [] [] [] cells 9-12......[] [] [] [] cells13 -16
AND have the parallel to series interconnection in the middle of each four cell group as that would need almost 12” by 30”

[ c1 ] [ c5 ] [ c9 ] [ c13 ]
[ c2 ] [ c6 ] [ c10 ] [ c14 ]
[ c3 ] [ c7 ] [ c11 ] [ c15 ]
[ c4 ] [ c8 ] [ c12 ] [ c16 ]

NOW IF I have going from left to right two groups of eight cells BUT still with only four cells interconnected in a parallel way.

Can I have OR does any one see issues with the following configuration?.

[] [] [] [] cells 1-4 G1......and to the right [] [] [] [] cells 5-8 G2.....
and below
[] [] [] [] cells 13-16 G4......and to the right [] [] [] [] cells 9 -12 G3

[ c1 ] [ c5 ]
[ c2 ] [ c6 ]
[ c3 ] [ c7 ]
[ c4 ] [ c8 ]

[ c13 ] [ c9 ]
[ c14 ] [ c10]
[ c15 ] [ c11]
[ c16 ] [ c12]

Group one is connected to group two with a mid cell interconnection and group two is connected to group three from bottom the cell to the top cell and group three is connected middle cell to group four, the POSITIVE is off group one and NEGATIVE is off group four to give me my 12+volts.

That seems to be a possible way of getting the 195Ah cells into the space I have.

I do have the identical space on the other side of the boat so could I split the battery physically into two six volt parts one on the port side one on the starboard side. BUT would the 6 to 8 feet interconnection cables screw up the whole thing?

Of course I can or could use 100Ah cells and then I don't have any issues at all (apart from the cost ones) as they are much thinner and not as tall I could even get 32 x 100 Ah cells in to give me 800Ah as they are only 6” x 2.75” x 8.25” so they would fit in in that first described as above - logical physical arrangement quite easily. However if I was going to be happy with 500Ah I could have only 20 cells 600 Ah 24 cells or even 700Ah with 28 cells. At the moment in the morning we are never down more than 60Ah assuming we cook more using the electrical devices and do that in the evening and not have a hot lunch when we are running off of the solar I cant see how we would be more than 200 Ah down even if we used the inverter to heat our hot water tank for hot showers (that we could do during the day(sun up time) on a timer when the solar was 'finished charging the batteries) . So really as LiFeP04 will give me more usable amps vis a vis a FLA/GEL/AGM battery bank of the same capacity 500/600Ah could be more available Ah than we would ever need based on current usage. Of course having more available Ah means we can do more from the solar/wind/LiFeP04/inverter system maybe an A/C watermaker

Question One. One is told that one should not mix FLA Gel and AGM batteries of various ages..........does this also apply to LiFeP04 batteries? This is quite critical as if we can, we could start with a lower Ah system and grow it as we find we need to, OR do we need to plan for the future and grow into an initially bigger Ah Battery.

Question Two, LiFeP04 Battery retention. It seems that these batteries need restrained on their long edge to stop them bulging under charge. How critical is this? Is this related to charge rates? Would a custom fit say 1/4” thick GRP Battery Box be 'enough' or would I need to put strengthening 'stiffening' ribs in/on it? and of course I would want to add a lid to protect all these many cell interconnections from an accidental short.

Question Three, What about a small say 40/60 Ah system for engine start?

Question Four. I have already downloaded 90+ pages of the 236 page thread and intend to download all of them ….. then I will filter out all the stuff that I don’t want. Would it be acceptable to create my own mini edited 'short' version of replies that I feel are important and create some sort of composite document {with acknowledgements of course} of what I see as important and valuable posts/information and then post here as an attachment?

Enough for now methinks
It is my understanding that you want all the jumper cables to be the same length and gage. But the ones in parallel can be different from the ones in series. Baqon is selling cells that are 300 amp hours for $315 and cells that are 60 amp hours for $65. Unfortunately they don't answer the phone or my emails. The advantages of using a bunch of small cells is that if one goes bad it's a small percentage your bank. And cheaper to replace. The ones in parallel equalize each other and you still only have four banks in series. I read through the more than 3,000 posts but didn't take very good notes. Thank you for taking your time to organize all that information.
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Old 03-02-2014, 11:52   #65
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Re: LiFePo4 for DUMMIES

Quote:
Originally Posted by deckofficer View Post
David,

I think you might be basing the size of your bank through your experience with lead acid performance. I come from the same camp before lithium, and trust me when I say that whatever size your lead bank was, you will enjoy the same usable a-hr from a lithium bank of 1/2 the size. There have been many cruisers on the forum that have gone from 900 and higher a-hr lead banks to just (4) 400 a-hr cells in series for 400 a-hr @ 13 volts. They all report much improved performance. When you run both of your induction cook tops together (that is how I cook) you could be pulling 150+ amps and due to Peukert effect the lead bank gives up a lot of its capacity on any load higher than the 0.05 C that they got their a-hr rating from. We have shown through testing that even when the LiFePO4 are subjected to a 1.0 C load, they will still deliver their a-hr rating with a 20% reserve. Combine this with the ability to cycle to 80% DOD vs 50% DOD of lead, and it is easy to see why 1/2 the capacity of lead can deliver more.

Hi Bob,

This i do understand, but i am sure it helps the thread.

I see i need to get on developing the short version of the monster thread IF ONLY so i don't get a headache revising and checking what i need.

Did you read my posts about sizes and space, I am leaning towards 500Ah composed of 20 100 Ah cells I suspect that this will be all we ever need, apart from a small set for engine start perhaps so i am working with one charge voltage and not mixed voltages if i had a GEL or AGM start battery.

ONE TFU i had was i tested only two of my SS pans for magnetism and what would you know they are the only two out of six totally identical pans from the same manufacturer that are magnetic.....my mild steel WOK works great though AND the difference in heat into the cabin when using the Induction hob rather than propane is amazing. OOOPS THREAD DRIFT

LiFeP04 is NOT Black Magic even in the Caribbean
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Old 03-02-2014, 11:56   #66
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Re: LiFePo4 for DUMMIES

Quote:
It is my understanding that you want all the jumper cables to be the same length and gage.
In theory yes, in practice no, bear in mind that Lifepo4 has particular jumper requirements because of the very high short circuit current that can be generated

dave
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Old 03-02-2014, 12:11   #67
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Re: LiFePo4 for DUMMIES

Here you go, Main Sails post 185 count to LiFPo4 as a HouseBank

Lloyd

Quote:
Originally Posted by FlyingCloud1937 View Post
Highland,

You are missing the point. Mainsail has given/written everything you need to know about how to do LiFePo4, and do it safely.

What he can't do is make you understand. You need to know why each and every devices is needed, and why each and every wire is connected to it's specific terminal.

You need to know why each and every aspect of voltage in/out, amps in/out mean.

If you were to read only the post made by Mainsail. Make a listing of each of the parts he has listed, then go to the manufactures site and download the specs and instruction manuals for these devices.

You will have all the required information to build a FAULT TOLERANT LiFePo4 House Bank.

Now to do this you will need to educate yourself in more then the basics of electrical circuitry. You will need to educate yourself the requirements of proper skills of marine electrical, that means wire, connections, and ABYC compliance.

DIY LiFePo4 isn't for DUMMIES. It is not Plug and Play. Neither is Marine Electrical.

Lloyd
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Old 03-02-2014, 12:49   #68
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Re: LiFePo4 for DUMMIES

Quote:
Originally Posted by Highland Fling View Post
Actually i don't.

I have already read the 126 pages and got a headache. Now 128 pages at my last look.

LiFeP04 are no more dangerous than any other battery system and yes i know about the exploding lipo batteries as i fly RC planes.

I had assumed that we all were here to help one another, seems strange to me that there are limits on that......having looked at your web pages i find this reply decidedly odd and strange.

I have no doubt i can build a 'good' LiFeP04 system - BUT like i said previously i hate reinventing the wheel - to my mind life is too short for that.

I truly and totally don't understand that reply BUT hey your life your choices, myself i am quite willing to share all and anything i know about any topic with A N Other who asks for my help.

I am going to go through the long thread and copy all the posts, i have already copied almost 100 of them, and once i have them all i will review them and then cut out the too technical info and try and get back to basics in a nice condensed version of that thread.

For sure without any more assistance from yourself i will get there, I just don't understand that mindset - where is the difficulty in specifying a typical basic set up and then one with all the bells and whistles. You have done your research but will only share it in ways that meet your needs not actually others needs. Just think you could save many many people hours and hours of reading day weeks of research but somehow you think they need to follow you down the research it yourself route......suggesting incorrectly of course is that this is the only way they will 'better' understand their system.

The mind boggles!!!

Wow here we go again....


I am truly sorry people are offended by this. I apologize if it offended anyone's senses and I was just trying to be HONEST and open about my feelings on this subject...

It is my true belief and I was only trying to provide insight into why "some" might not be willing to provide the instructions down to the minutia level..

There are many good experts in that thread and perhaps one will come along and provide wiring diagrams.

I was simply being honest about where I personally sit on this and why. Bad choice clearly...

It is not about being arrogant or elitist or taking down to others it is that I truly find this a line I have to draw for safety and the safety of YOUR wallet. My belief may not be your belief, or others, and I am sorry for that... I also notice lots of quiet from others so perhaps I am not alone?


Safety Standards:

Please bear in mind that I do not even build LiFePO4 packs
nor do installations for paying customers, at this point, because we have no safety standards to go by.

This is my main reason, in a nut shell!

Giving out the minutia level recipe here I do personally believe to be unwise, for me, at this point in time. Between myself and others we are literally leaving 2% of the design work up to the DIY who wants to build a pack.

If any of the details were to be misconstrued it may severely dent your wallet and I do not want that. I do lots of long distance paid consults and from what I have learned from that I have to draw this line somewhere because people simply do not always follow instructions, or diagrams and then I get blamed.

As I very clearly stated when I first stepped into this my information is shared here on an ongoing basis as I research and learn it and physically use it in a boat as a house bank. I am learning as everyone else is. This is a non mature technology and I don't personally believe it is ready for mass DIY level builds.

If I did and I found it to be simple and fool proof (LiFePO4 for dummies), and we had a standard to be guided by for "safety", then you may very likely see a diagram or minutia level instructions from me..

IMHO not ready for prime time as I have said many times before.

I am simply not ready to put myself out there on the net with diagrams and exact instructions that may not line up with future standards on this technology or to be misapplied and not followed the way they are written.

There are numerous reasons why I will talk about the theory, cautions like this, how to balance, how to build a cell case, charging voltages, how to program chargers or even specific parts I use but not the wiring or actual installation on your boat.


CF Limitations:

Also keep in mind that even if I may want to create a post containing all this information, in one place, which I would do, it would be very, very long and CF has NO EDITS beyond 15 or 30 minutes.

That is a deal breaker for me on what would be such a long and technical post. We are talking about a post that would have 30+ images and thousands of words. This is not going to happen here on CF, from me, due to the paranoia over member edits.

Yes some folks here lose out on my posts because sometimes technical edits need to be made for safety and I can not sit there and ask a mod to edit sentence 344 in paragraph 102 every time a simple update needs to be made or I notice a sperling error. I can post this information elsewhere that allows me to keep the post updated, safe and applicable to current day..

Posts with that much information, that can change from time to time, in regards to standards, new information, updated manufacturer information, discontinuations of products etc. etc. require edits beyond 15 minutes other wise any corrections get lost 3400 posts deep and the original information becomes stale and out of date. This is simply not fair to readers or the person who is willing to detail this in a "book like" fashion....


LiFePO4 For Dummies:


I simply do not believe there is such a thing as LiFePO4 for dummies nor do I believe in set it and forget it LiFePO4. That technology is called lead acid. My personal belief.

I have said as much many times here. I also do not believe they are a wise build for everyone at this point in time..

For example we have no good information yet as to what floating actually does over the long term because information on LiFePO4 is scarce for off grid/house bank use. Far to early in its life to know whether floating at XX voltage causes a 15% reduction or an 80% reduction in life. All your computers and cell phones stop charging when full and do not re-engage until a low specific threshold has been triggered. Currently there are no chargers or controllers set up to do this so we have to "adapt" existing technologies many of which can not be adapted to do this sort of thing.

I have chosen not to float our bank but I get challenged on that constantly by folks who want to adapt LA standards to Li. Like everyone here we are all learning and I have chosen what I feel is a safe process but others feel differently. It is up to readers to decide which way they want to go. There is no single answer and that is part of the big problem...

This is a large part of where I sit on providing exact instructions here.

Wiring Diagrams:

I also generally do not use wiring diagrams, other than scratch paper, when laying out systems so it is something I would need to take the time to create anyway. I mainly wire from my head, not diagrams, other than some chicken scratch layouts I may use. When my customers want diagrams I create them and that time gets billed I am up front that I am pretty darn slow at it...

I do not get paid to be here and this is all done voluntarily to share what I have learned on this technology in my free time..

Diagrams Etc.:

CPA / House Power BMS or any other BMS maker has all the instructions for use of their product, Balmar has theirs minus my personal LiFePO4 settings which I have already posted here. And all this info is out there.

The fact is myself and others have provided nearly every specific bit of info one would need to build a system that works, minus the physical wiring diagram. I can't help that much of it is buried 3400 posts deep in "geekery". I too wish it was not but it is.

Threads and geekery:

As we can see this thread has already turned geekery and gone off track yet again because two people find where I sit, on providing the last 2%, offensive. It happens, it is CF and I can't please everyone....

I too have to wade through 3400 posts very often and I know it is not fun yet there are now piles of LiFePO4 threads here and every one has turned off topic and to geekery. I am not certain LiFePO4 is simple enough to not turn to geekery at this point in time because every time someone wants to take a short cut or adapt LA technology to Li the geekery level explanations start to happen..

TIP: I book mark specific posts into a bookmark folder by clicking on the post numer in the upper right of each post. I then rename them so they make sense and hit "bookmark"..


Again I am very, very sorry if I offended anyone's senses. That is NOT my intent but I have to stand by what I believe in.

Without at least some bare minimum safety standards and some level of industry consensus that last 2% can't and won't be coming from me as it puts me way too far out on an unsupported limb.

Some other pro's / ABYC members in this thread have stepped out onto that limb and do build customer level packs, I do not. I think that is great that they have chosen that path, I have not yet... It is interesting that not a single one of them has provided any detailed instructions for a complete pack build. I don't see any of them under the gun, just me, because I was honest.

I will continue to talk theory, cautions, how I did this or that, why I believe this or that, comment on products or product suitability etc. etc. but actual instructions for a complete system, sorry I simply can't do that.

Remember I am still learning this technology like everyone else.....
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Old 03-02-2014, 13:20   #69
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Re: LiFePo4 for DUMMIES

Quote:
Originally Posted by FlyingCloud1937 View Post
Highland,

You are missing the point. Mainsail has given/written everything you need to know about how to do LiFePo4, and do it safely.

What he can't do is make you understand. You need to know why each and every devices is needed, and why each and every wire is connected to it's specific terminal.

You need to know why each and every aspect of voltage in/out, amps in/out mean.

If you were to read only the post made by Mainsail. Make a listing of each of the parts he has listed, then go to the manufactures site and download the specs and instruction manuals for these devices.

You will have all the required information to build a FAULT TOLERANT LiFePo4 House Bank.

Now to do this you will need to educate yourself in more then the basics of electrical circuitry. You will need to educate yourself the requirements of proper skills of marine electrical, that means wire, connections, and ABYC compliance.

DIY LiFePo4 isn't for DUMMIES. It is not Plug and Play. Neither is Marine Electrical.

Lloyd

TRYING HARD to BE NICE

You have no idea of my expertise in any of these areas nor my understanding of the need for the various components in a LiFeP04 system - making assumptions is always a mistake.

For sure i have no real time experience of LiFeP04 systems, in time i can and will work this out. Rather amazingly i was asking for some help from someone who has lots of experience to allow me to put a good safe working system into my boat in the shortest time possible.

I TOTALLY FAIL to understand the difficulty in producing a system diagram in fact TWO - one a simple system with all necessary parts listed and one with ALL the knobs bells and whistles on it.

This can/could be a simple "My recommendations advice is" with a disclaimer since America is such a litigious society "USE at Your Own Risk" to keep any potential trouble makers away......I HAVE read all 236 posts TWICE and all i got was a headache........YES within there are many many gems, many by the two main 'knowledgeable' posters and i have learned and understood a lot about these LiFeP04 systems, BUT that is a NIGHTMARE THREAD.

To quote a rather famous American tennis player "You cant be serious" expecting anyone to read all of that and then take in all (or even much ) of the important and critical info in there. That thread needs heavily edited and highly condensed as the signal to noise ratio is way over the top.

I will do this for myself and 'probably' post when i have that completed and then probably post it here or post somewhere else so interested parties can read a sensible summary of what is needed and what is best......AS I UNDERSTAND IT from reading editing and condensing the mega thread. I will openly share what i have discovered and the system i am going to build listing all components and suppliers as well as my logic behind these choices.

I personally think that this is both excessively time consuming and unnecessary and could be done in a tenth of the time IF what I asked for was produced.....by those with the expertise and the knowledge.

To repeat for the fourth or fifth time I hate reinventing the wheel and here with these LiFeP04 batteries with the amount of knowledge that is out there it seems even more ludicrous to have to educate myself - the hard way..................BUT since i want a LiFeP04 system and others feel that they will only help 'their way' that is the road i am forced to go down. That i feel is a very very sad situation and does not sit in easily with what i think or thought these online forums were for and very good at providing.

Back to downloading more pages of the MEGA THREAD
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Old 03-02-2014, 13:25   #70
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Re: LiFePo4 for DUMMIES

Well put Maine Sail. The least I can do is supply links to the components that you have used. David and others can go to the sites and download the user's manuals for this equipment that will in fact have schematics.

HousePower BMS - CleanPowerAuto LLC

http://www.balmar.net/PDF/mc-614-manual.pdf

Mark Grasser - DC Power Solutions Products

https://www.hobbyking.com/hobbyking/...2_8S_Lipo.html

http://pacificev.com/cell_log_8s_manual.pdf

Battery Chargers | LinkPRO Battery Monitor | Xantrex
I use this also

http://www.xantrex.com/documents/Acc...-01_rev-C).pdf

http://www.xantrex.com/documents/Acc...-01_rev-C).pdf

Rogue Power Technologies - MPT-3024 MPPT Charge Controller

Class T Fuses - Blue Sea Systems

http://www.richardsonrfpd.com/resour...ctors_0807.pdf

DC Power Supply - Switching Power Supply - VOLTEQ Power Supply HY3030EX 30V 30A Over Voltage Over Current Protection (Powered by CubeCart)
used for cell balancing, I have one from Maine Sail's recommendation. IMHO, if your going to top balance it isn't needed, just charge your bank in series and reconnect all cells in parallel and let sit for a few days, reconnect in series and your good to go. So far all the users here have preformed the balance only once and haven't needed to re-balance.
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Old 03-02-2014, 13:43   #71
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Re: LiFePo4 for DUMMIES

Quote:
Originally Posted by Maine Sail View Post
Wow here we go again....


I am truly sorry people are offended by this. I apologize if it offended anyone's senses and I was just trying to be HONEST and open about my feelings on this subject...

It is my true belief and I was only trying to provide insight into why "some" might not be willing to provide the instructions down to the minutia level..

There are many good experts in that thread and perhaps one will come along and provide wiring diagrams.

I was simply being honest about where I personally sit on this and why. Bad choice clearly...

It is not about being arrogant or elitist or taking down to others it is that I truly find this a line I have to draw for safety and the safety of YOUR wallet. My belief may not be your belief, or others, and I am sorry for that... I also notice lots of quiet from others so perhaps I am not alone?


Safety Standards:

Please bear in mind that I do not even build LiFePO4 packs
nor do installations for paying customers, at this point, because we have no safety standards to go by.

This is my main reason, in a nut shell!

Giving out the minutia level recipe here I do personally believe to be unwise, for me, at this point in time. Between myself and others we are literally leaving 2% of the design work up to the DIY who wants to build a pack.

If any of the details were to be misconstrued it may severely dent your wallet and I do not want that. I do lots of long distance paid consults and from what I have learned from that I have to draw this line somewhere because people simply do not always follow instructions, or diagrams and then I get blamed.

As I very clearly stated when I first stepped into this my information is shared here on an ongoing basis as I research and learn it and physically use it in a boat as a house bank. I am learning as everyone else is. This is a non mature technology and I don't personally believe it is ready for mass DIY level builds.

If I did and I found it to be simple and fool proof (LiFePO4 for dummies), and we had a standard to be guided by for "safety", then you may very likely see a diagram or minutia level instructions from me..

IMHO not ready for prime time as I have said many times before.

I am simply not ready to put myself out there on the net with diagrams and exact instructions that may not line up with future standards on this technology or to be misapplied and not followed the way they are written.

There are numerous reasons why I will talk about the theory, cautions like this, how to balance, how to build a cell case, charging voltages, how to program chargers or even specific parts I use but not the wiring or actual installation on your boat.


CF Limitations:

Also keep in mind that even if I may want to create a post containing all this information, in one place, which I would do, it would be very, very long and CF has NO EDITS beyond 15 or 30 minutes.

That is a deal breaker for me on what would be such a long and technical post. We are talking about a post that would have 30+ images and thousands of words. This is not going to happen here on CF, from me, due to the paranoia over member edits.

Yes some folks here lose out on my posts because sometimes technical edits need to be made for safety and I can not sit there and ask a mod to edit sentence 344 in paragraph 102 every time a simple update needs to be made or I notice a sperling error. I can post this information elsewhere that allows me to keep the post updated, safe and applicable to current day..

Posts with that much information, that can change from time to time, in regards to standards, new information, updated manufacturer information, discontinuations of products etc. etc. require edits beyond 15 minutes other wise any corrections get lost 3400 posts deep and the original information becomes stale and out of date. This is simply not fair to readers or the person who is willing to detail this in a "book like" fashion....


LiFePO4 For Dummies:


I simply do not believe there is such a thing as LiFePO4 for dummies nor do I believe in set it and forget it LiFePO4. That technology is called lead acid. My personal belief.

I have said as much many times here. I also do not believe they are a wise build for everyone at this point in time..

For example we have no good information yet as to what floating actually does over the long term because information on LiFePO4 is scarce for off grid/house bank use. Far to early in its life to know whether floating at XX voltage causes a 15% reduction or an 80% reduction in life. All your computers and cell phones stop charging when full and do not re-engage until a low specific threshold has been triggered. Currently there are no chargers or controllers set up to do this so we have to "adapt" existing technologies many of which can not be adapted to do this sort of thing.

I have chosen not to float our bank but I get challenged on that constantly by folks who want to adapt LA standards to Li. Like everyone here we are all learning and I have chosen what I feel is a safe process but others feel differently. It is up to readers to decide which way they want to go. There is no single answer and that is part of the big problem...

This is a large part of where I sit on providing exact instructions here.

Wiring Diagrams:

I also generally do not use wiring diagrams, other than scratch paper, when laying out systems so it is something I would need to take the time to create anyway. I mainly wire from my head, not diagrams, other than some chicken scratch layouts I may use. When my customers want diagrams I create them and that time gets billed I am up front that I am pretty darn slow at it...

I do not get paid to be here and this is all done voluntarily to share what I have learned on this technology in my free time..

Diagrams Etc.:

CPA / House Power BMS or any other BMS maker has all the instructions for use of their product, Balmar has theirs minus my personal LiFePO4 settings which I have already posted here. And all this info is out there.

The fact is myself and others have provided nearly every specific bit of info one would need to build a system that works, minus the physical wiring diagram. I can't help that much of it is buried 3400 posts deep in "geekery". I too wish it was not but it is.

Threads and geekery:

As we can see this thread has already turned geekery and gone off track yet again because two people find where I sit, on providing the last 2%, offensive. It happens, it is CF and I can't please everyone....

I too have to wade through 3400 posts very often and I know it is not fun yet there are now piles of LiFePO4 threads here and every one has turned off topic and to geekery. I am not certain LiFePO4 is simple enough to not turn to geekery at this point in time because every time someone wants to take a short cut or adapt LA technology to Li the geekery level explanations start to happen..

TIP: I book mark specific posts into a bookmark folder by clicking on the post numer in the upper right of each post. I then rename them so they make sense and hit "bookmark"..


Again I am very, very sorry if I offended anyone's senses. That is NOT my intent but I have to stand by what I believe in.

Without at least some bare minimum safety standards and some level of industry consensus that last 2% can't and won't be coming from me as it puts me way too far out on an unsupported limb.

Some other pro's / ABYC members in this thread have stepped out onto that limb and do build customer level packs, I do not. I think that is great that they have chosen that path, I have not yet... It is interesting that not a single one of them has provided any detailed instructions for a complete pack build. I don't see any of them under the gun, just me, because I was honest.

I will continue to talk theory, cautions, how I did this or that, why I believe this or that, comment on products or product suitability etc. etc. but actual instructions for a complete system, sorry I simply can't do that.

Remember I am still learning this technology like everyone else.....

It would seem i opened a hornets nest

While it may appear i was having a go at yourself as an individual that was not the case you just provided me with the impetus to ask MORE INFO PLEASE. One thing i am not is offended, confused i was but less confused now after reading that post, not that i can now agree with you but there is room here for both our positions.

We are obviously two quite different people i do appreciate that post that explanation. We have totally different mindsets IF you notice my wee picture here......it would have been so easy to say.............flying passengers at Mach 2 are you out of your mind...................but WE did it. it still breaks my heart to think no more Concorde's flying - the first backward step in aviation ever and i cant watch a video without getting tearful.

LiFeP04 is a walk in the park compared to what we did with that plane all those many years ago, surrounded by naysayers, to my mind LiFeP04 risky - nope, you see it differently. Like i said previously your life your choices and for sure i would not want to drag you kicking and screaming out of your comfort zone.

RE EDITING

Why cant you use a word document or a FREE OPEN OFFICE one if you are not into MS Software for your writing spell check it and then post here that way you are not limited by the edit time window here.
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Old 03-02-2014, 13:46   #72
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Re: LiFePo4 for DUMMIES

Quote:
Originally Posted by Highland Fling View Post
TRYING HARD to BE NICE

You have no idea of my expertise in any of these areas nor my understanding of the need for the various components in a LiFeP04 system - making assumptions is always a mistake.

For sure i have no real time experience of LiFeP04 systems, in time i can and will work this out. Rather amazingly i was asking for some help from someone who has lots of experience to allow me to put a good safe working system into my boat in the shortest time possible.

I TOTALLY FAIL to understand the difficulty in producing a system diagram in fact TWO - one a simple system with all necessary parts listed and one with ALL the knobs bells and whistles on it.



This can/could be a simple "My recommendations advice is" with a disclaimer since America is such a litigious society "USE at Your Own Risk" to keep any potential trouble makers away......I HAVE read all 236 posts TWICE and all i got was a headache........YES within there are many many gems, many by the two main 'knowledgeable' posters and i have learned and understood a lot about these LiFeP04 systems, BUT that is a NIGHTMARE THREAD.

To quote a rather famous American tennis player "You cant be serious" expecting anyone to read all of that and then take in all (or even much ) of the important and critical info in there. That thread needs heavily edited and highly condensed as the signal to noise ratio is way over the top.

I will do this for myself and 'probably' post when i have that completed and then probably post it here or post somewhere else so interested parties can read a sensible summary of what is needed and what is best......AS I UNDERSTAND IT from reading editing and condensing the mega thread. I will openly share what i have discovered and the system i am going to build listing all components and suppliers as well as my logic behind these choices.

I personally think that this is both excessively time consuming and unnecessary and could be done in a tenth of the time IF what I asked for was produced.....by those with the expertise and the knowledge.

To repeat for the fourth or fifth time I hate reinventing the wheel and here with these LiFeP04 batteries with the amount of knowledge that is out there it seems even more ludicrous to have to educate myself - the hard way..................BUT since i want a LiFeP04 system and others feel that they will only help 'their way' that is the road i am forced to go down. That i feel is a very very sad situation and does not sit in easily with what i think or thought these online forums were for and very good at providing.

Back to downloading more pages of the MEGA THREAD

There is a search function that I'm still awkward with but I'm getting better.

Also I point out that guys that wire boats for a living have to consider liability litigation or at least their professional reputation.

I agree with Mainsails point about people not following even basic instructions. In my misspent youth I designed commercial garage door operators for places like fire departments, grain elevators ect. It was amazing how many "qualified " electricians would not put "the yellow wire with the brown stripe on terminal position 1" because they : a. Couldn't read or b. thought they had a better way or c. Just couldn't bother paying attention
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Old 03-02-2014, 14:21   #73
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Re: LiFePo4 for DUMMIES

Quote:
Originally Posted by Highland Fling View Post
It would seem i opened a hornets nest


Why cant you use a word document or a FREE OPEN OFFICE one if you are not into MS Software for your writing spell check it and then post here that way you are not limited by the edit time window here.
Because spelling is a SMALL portion of what keeping a post with that much detail accurate, entails. Things change, specs change, products get discontinued, etc. etc. etc... Not allowing a post like that to remain current and updated without asking a mod to do it is not something I care to do at the level it deserves to be done at.....

Eventually you may find something on SaiboatOwners, Sailnet or my own site but it won't happen here because I believe in ownership of my posts to keep them as accurate as possible. CF has their beliefs/distrust of members I have my own thoughts..

I find, correct and update posts on other forums with regularity. Recently on Sailnet a post resurfaced where I recommend a product that no longer existed. I edited my post to reflect a current product that is a suitable replacement. I believe that is my duty, to keep my posts as accurate as possible, not the duty of a mod.....

Until CF changes their editing policy, which won't ever likely happen, you will never see lengthy detailed posts here by me... As an example my most recent article on the SmartPlug is on SBO, Sailnet and my own site but not here.

That article is an example of what I mean by detail and what I would eventually like to do for LiFePO4, but it won't happen here due to the level of distrust CF has for its members in regards to editing......

To be honest I hold back a lot here due to the editing policy, especially where technical stuff is involved that can change frequently.

Hope that explains it a tad better.
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Old 03-02-2014, 15:05   #74
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Re: LiFePo4 for DUMMIES

Quote:
Originally Posted by Maine Sail View Post
Because spelling is a SMALL portion of what keeping a post with that much detail accurate, entails. Things change, specs change, products get discontinued, etc. etc. etc... Not allowing a post like that to remain current and updated without asking a mod to do it is not something I care to do at the level it deserves to be done at.....

Eventually you may find something on SaiboatOwners, Sailnet or my own site but it won't happen here because I believe in ownership of my posts to keep them as accurate as possible. CF has their beliefs/distrust of members I have my own thoughts..

I find, correct and update posts on other forums with regularity. Recently on Sailnet a post resurfaced where I recommend a product that no longer existed. I edited my post to reflect a current product that is a suitable replacement. I believe that is my duty, to keep my posts as accurate as possible, not the duty of a mod.....

Until CF changes their editing policy, which won't ever likely happen, you will never see lengthy detailed posts here by me... As an example my most recent article on the SmartPlug is on SBO, Sailnet and my own site but not here.

That article is an example of what I mean by detail and what I would eventually like to do for LiFePO4, but it won't happen here due to the level of distrust CF has for its members in regards to editing......

To be honest I hold back a lot here due to the editing policy, especially where technical stuff is involved that can change frequently.

Hope that explains it a tad better.

I'm happy you do this as I follow a lot of what you write. I just hope you also post at the end of the thread that you edited your post, or the people that have already read past your update aren't likely to go back and see the change.

Matt
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Old 03-02-2014, 15:20   #75
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Re: LiFePo4 for DUMMIES

David,

You might want to simply quit. Stop. Desist.

If you're so smart, why can't YOU figure it out.

Look, I "met" Maine Sail via the internet maybe 15 years ago. He and I (independently on different coasts of the country) developed the concept of basic electrical systems for boats. He's developed many, many wiring diagrams for basic boat electrical systems, as well as developing his highly thought of own website. He and I have helped individual boaters who've sent us their (strange) wiring diagrams (even after seeing what we've already published) and we've both help hundreds of sailors. As mentioned, he does this for a living.

Point being, you're really picking on the wrong guy to complain about him not giving you enough information.

Not only has he given you his "take" and all of his recommended equipment, he's supported your "complaints" by explaining, clearly, factually and reasonably, just why he won't go any further.

Perhaps you shouldn't also.

Good luck on your design and installation.
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