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Old 30-12-2010, 06:00   #331
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If your are still there Lifetech.......... As I belong to many forums, I ran across some disheartening Cycle Life in the "electric boats" group for these technology Lithiums. Some reports of THundersky and others that 3C discharge rates to typical 50-80% DOD reduced the cycle life from expected 2000 - 3000 charge cycles to replacement required around 500 cycles. What level of abuse can LiFePo4 take on charge/discharge rates ? I would expect BME control would protect the batts from serious performance degradation. Any comment would be appreciated or others who have some extended experience over the last few years.

JT
Can you provide the link to the "electric boat" group you are speaking of?
I am not at all surprised that the Thundersky batteries are only lasting 500 cycles. After all they are a poor quality product made in China especially for the budget/DIY backyard market. They are certainly not a professional use product like LiFeTech Energy, A123 or the handful of high quality LiFePO4 products on the market. When I talk to the professional electric car manufacturers and put the question to them if they have considered using Thundersky batteries in their electric car designs they just laugh at me! LiFePO4 is just like any other product. You get what you pay for. Why do you think that Thundersky (the manufacturer) is not willing to provide any factory warranty on their product (this was the case the last time I checked)? If they had faith in their product they would provide reassurance to their customers by providing a lengthy warranty just like LiFeTech do. Our warranty is 3 years / 3000 cycles to 100% DOD (whichever comes first). Our LiFeTech X2E cells and battery packs which contain these cells have a rated cycle life of 18,000 cycles if only shallow discharged 10% DOD. People think that if you are buying Thundersky you are getting value for money but this is hardly the case if they are only lasting for 500 cycles. If that is the case you would be better off staying with lead acid.
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Old 30-12-2010, 08:44   #332
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Now, now . In any event, I think you're in somewhat different markets- after all your biggest pack is around 100 Ah or so.

IIRC their US distributor provides a warranty.
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Old 30-12-2010, 08:56   #333
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HI Lifetech.

Yes this is a DIY forum for electric boats, you might be interested in joining since they discuss batteries a lot. Along with chargers, motors, and the other typical DYI components. Where I picked up the question was from this link. Yahoo! Groups.

They admit this was a cross post from an electrical vehicle forum but you can start there. Their concern was what happens for vehicles will likely manifest itself with boats.

Good to hear Lifetech warranty and full disclosure of specifications. Agree with your presumption of penny-wise, pound foolish.

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Old 30-12-2010, 09:39   #334
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I think it's more a difference between whether you want "plug-n-play" or whether you want to get into the technology and DIY. The latest blog and forum posts say that TS cells work fine.
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Old 31-12-2010, 21:40   #335
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Now, now . In any event, I think you're in somewhat different markets- after all your biggest pack is around 100 Ah or so.

IIRC their US distributor provides a warranty.
Yes sure, we are in a more specialized market.

Regarding the warranty issue, yes of course your Thundersky batteries are covered by a local warranty because this is mandatory. In all modern western countries there are strong consumer protection laws so it is the battery distributor in the USA, Canada, Australia, etc. who offers this warranty (because they have to so the warranty provided is the minimum as required by law).
My point is the battery manufacturer themselves (Thundersky China) do not offer a warranty at all. I find this most unusual that a manufacturer of a product will not back the manufacturing quality and reliability of their own product. Just sounds very unusual to me and wouldn't inspire me to buy their product (no matter what the product is).
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Old 31-12-2010, 22:01   #336
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Will Thunder Sky warranty or not?

I bought a battery (4 cells) earlier this year for my race to Hawaii. One of the cells is bad, manifesting itself in reduced capacity.

The company I bought the cells from has gone out of business, but recommended I contact Dave Kois of Current EV Tech, LLC
Products

Dave said:
"First thing I would do if I was you is take the Mini BMS off and try to charge the cell and see if it self discharges again. I suspect it is not the cell but the BMS that is draining the cell. I have never seen a TS cell that was bad on its own, It is usually a faulty BMS module that drains the cell.

If the cell is indeed bad then your in a wierd position because TS changed the size of the 200ah cell. I can probably get them to replace it but I suspect it will be with the new size cell.

I have a friend in San Diego that has some of the old style 200ah cells but he would want full price for one.

Any how Id take the BMS off first and try to charge and discharge it, see if it is really damaged then we will go from there"

I don't think it is the BMS module as a swapped it with one from one of the other cells and the problem stayed with the cell.

I am in the process of testing the battery without the BMS, but am hopeful that I will be able to get it replaced under warranty.
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Old 31-12-2010, 22:08   #337
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I bought a battery (4 cells) earlier this year for my race to Hawaii. One of the cells is bad, manifesting itself in reduced capacity.

The company I bought the cells from has gone out of business, but recommended I contact Dave Kois of Current EV Tech, LLC
Products

Dave said:
"First thing I would do if I was you is take the Mini BMS off and try to charge the cell and see if it self discharges again. I suspect it is not the cell but the BMS that is draining the cell. I have never seen a TS cell that was bad on its own, It is usually a faulty BMS module that drains the cell.

If the cell is indeed bad then your in a wierd position because TS changed the size of the 200ah cell. I can probably get them to replace it but I suspect it will be with the new size cell.

I have a friend in San Diego that has some of the old style 200ah cells but he would want full price for one.

Any how Id take the BMS off first and try to charge and discharge it, see if it is really damaged then we will go from there"

I don't think it is the BMS module as a swapped it with one from one of the other cells and the problem stayed with the cell.

I am in the process of testing the battery without the BMS, but am hopeful that I will be able to get it replaced under warranty.
If you purchased the cells from EV Components best of luck trying to get the faulty cell replaced. Lots of people lost their money and/or didn't receive the batteries they ordered when EV Components went out of business.
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Old 01-01-2011, 12:31   #338
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LifeTech, I don't know about Oz but you don't seem to have a grasp of the US market or laws at all.

"yes of course your Thundersky batteries are covered by a local warranty because this is mandatory. In all modern western countries there are strong consumer protection laws so it is the battery distributor in the USA, Canada, Australia, etc. who offers this warranty (because they have to so the warranty provided is the minimum as required by law)."
In the US the minimum warranty that the law requires is zero. Zilch, nada, nothing. The seller can sell anything without a warranty, or with no warranty, under federal and state laws. The difference is that if they state "No warranty express or implied" then there is no warranty. If they fail to make any statement and fail to make the required legal waiver, then and only then do the statutory warranties apply under laws like the Uniform Commerical Code or Magnusson-Moss Act. The manufacturer is not necessarily bound at all.


"My point is the battery manufacturer themselves (Thundersky China) do not offer a warranty at all. I find this most unusual that a manufacturer of a product will not back the manufacturing quality and reliability of their own product. "
This sounds like you are totally unfamiliar with the normal ways that global manufacturing and franchised distribution are done. In most cases manufacturers (like Philips, Nikon, Canon) license their global distribution to geographic entities. Nikon, a Japanese company, doesn't sell anything in the United States. They license the territory exclusively to NikonUSA, who have he exclusive rights to resell Nikon (Japan) products here. NikonUSA also supply the warranty for such goods, under their own terms. They add their own warranty expenses to the cost of the Japanese product on order to come up with their own pricing and support for the customers in their territory.

This is done for many reasons, among them liability and familiarity with the geographic venue itself. Some distributors carry many lines of goods this way, applying their "national" familiarity and expertise as a value-added feature in itself. For instance, you'd probably have no idea that there are "49 states plus Lousiana" when it comes to some of our national codes. Louisiana follows laws differently from the other 49 states, only someone familiar with US commercial laws would know that.

And that's actually quite normal for "global" products. While some manufacturers provide direct warranty support, and require their distributors to honor it, most don't. That's nothing new, it has been going on for at least 50 years. Some will provide a "global" warranty, others don't but will quietly service customers because it is good PR anyhow.

If any of this surprises you...it really shouldn't. Not if you're looking to be a global shipper and player in the world market today. That's one reason US customers often want to buy from a US company, so any legal issues or understandings take place within one legal venue, and we don't have to worry about getting a warranty serviced by a vendor in China. Or Oz. Or, a new small vendor who might not be around in a year to service a warranty.

Nothing personal, or peculiar to the US. Those are issues we all have concerns with in today's "global village".

Of course you're familiar with the local laws and traditions here...If I want to pay for your batteries with two goats and three camels, what's wrong with that? My tribe has always done it that way! <VBG>
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Old 01-01-2011, 21:55   #339
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LifeTech, I don't know about Oz but you don't seem to have a grasp of the US market or laws at all.

"yes of course your Thundersky batteries are covered by a local warranty because this is mandatory. In all modern western countries there are strong consumer protection laws so it is the battery distributor in the USA, Canada, Australia, etc. who offers this warranty (because they have to so the warranty provided is the minimum as required by law)."
In the US the minimum warranty that the law requires is zero. Zilch, nada, nothing. The seller can sell anything without a warranty, or with no warranty, under federal and state laws. The difference is that if they state "No warranty express or implied" then there is no warranty. If they fail to make any statement and fail to make the required legal waiver, then and only then do the statutory warranties apply under laws like the Uniform Commerical Code or Magnusson-Moss Act. The manufacturer is not necessarily bound at all.


"My point is the battery manufacturer themselves (Thundersky China) do not offer a warranty at all. I find this most unusual that a manufacturer of a product will not back the manufacturing quality and reliability of their own product. "
This sounds like you are totally unfamiliar with the normal ways that global manufacturing and franchised distribution are done. In most cases manufacturers (like Philips, Nikon, Canon) license their global distribution to geographic entities. Nikon, a Japanese company, doesn't sell anything in the United States. They license the territory exclusively to NikonUSA, who have he exclusive rights to resell Nikon (Japan) products here. NikonUSA also supply the warranty for such goods, under their own terms. They add their own warranty expenses to the cost of the Japanese product on order to come up with their own pricing and support for the customers in their territory.

This is done for many reasons, among them liability and familiarity with the geographic venue itself. Some distributors carry many lines of goods this way, applying their "national" familiarity and expertise as a value-added feature in itself. For instance, you'd probably have no idea that there are "49 states plus Lousiana" when it comes to some of our national codes. Louisiana follows laws differently from the other 49 states, only someone familiar with US commercial laws would know that.

And that's actually quite normal for "global" products. While some manufacturers provide direct warranty support, and require their distributors to honor it, most don't. That's nothing new, it has been going on for at least 50 years. Some will provide a "global" warranty, others don't but will quietly service customers because it is good PR anyhow.

If any of this surprises you...it really shouldn't. Not if you're looking to be a global shipper and player in the world market today. That's one reason US customers often want to buy from a US company, so any legal issues or understandings take place within one legal venue, and we don't have to worry about getting a warranty serviced by a vendor in China. Or Oz. Or, a new small vendor who might not be around in a year to service a warranty.

Nothing personal, or peculiar to the US. Those are issues we all have concerns with in today's "global village".

Of course you're familiar with the local laws and traditions here...If I want to pay for your batteries with two goats and three camels, what's wrong with that? My tribe has always done it that way! <VBG>
I appreciate your comments hellosailer. Yes I understand what you are saying. I guess the LiFePO4 battery industry is a bit different to the larger companies like Philips, Nikon, etc since these companies have sales/support offices who are directly linked to the head office company in Japan. LiFePO4 sellers in the USA are just agents for the company in China which makes the batteries but they have no direct responsibility to the actual manufacturer as would the US office of Sony for example have close ties to the Sony factory in Japan.

I understand what you are saying about a company being able to sell a product without any warranty so long as they state that the goods are supplied "no warranty express or implied" but in the real world who is going to spend several thousands of dollars on lithium batteries if they are sold with zero warranty express or implied?

Regarding your comment that most people in the USA would prefer to buy from a US company didn't do any of the many customers from EV Components who lost their money or didn't receive the batteries they ordered much good. EV Components was probably the largest company in the USA as far as sales of LiFePO4 batteries was concerned. They were certainly the largest US Thundersky distributor. When they went out of business lots of angry customers were left behind. I think the quality of the sales, service, reputation of the company and quality of the products they offer is more important than than which country they are from.

Thanks for pointing out the difference in laws as concerns Lousiana. It so happens our LiFeTech Energy US technical service and support representative/agent is based in Baton Rouge, LA. Ecsotec perform all our specialised computer battery programming and installation work in the USA mainly for electric vehicles and critical standby power/UPS/Data centre installations- ecsotec | electric concept solutions
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Old 02-01-2011, 12:20   #340
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Lifetech, I feel like something is getting lost in the translation.

"LiFePO4 sellers in the USA are just agents for the company in China which makes the batteries but they have no direct responsibility to the actual manufacturer "

So you are saying that "the company in China" is not the same as the manufacturer? Because agents do indeed have direct responsibility. In the US, an agent's actions are "on behalf of" their employer and usually 100%
binding on them, quite the opposite of what you seem to be saying.

"as would the US office of Sony for example have close ties to the Sony factory in Japan." Actually in their case "Sony Corporation of America, based in New York, NY, is the U.S. subsidiary of Sony Corporation, headquartered in Tokyo, Japan" the "Sony" that operates in the US is not a franchisee, not an independent territorial distributor, but a captive (limited liability) subsidiary. That's yet another relationship.

"but in the real world who is going to spend several thousands of dollars on lithium batteries if they are sold with zero warranty express or implied?"
Good question. I know that I would't spend 4x, 6x, 8x the price of wet cells unless I got a warranty that promised xxxx duty cycles, as proven and confirmed by the battery monitor circuit in each battery. Which LiOn computer battery packs have--but these larger batteries lack. A one year or two year pro-rata warranty is, to me, essentially zero warranty. It doesn't show a full committment to the full promise of battery life. And--nothing personal--it isn't as if I'm dealing with a vendor with a hundred year track record. Today, one really has to ask "will this vendor be around to service my warranty?" I've had, and have, "orphan products" where vendors with reasonably long track records went belly up in recent years.

"people in the USA would prefer to buy from a US company...lost their money or didn't receive the batteries they ordered much good." All well and true. As I said, I have orphans too. But it is easier to pursue legal options at home, than it is to take them abroad, especially to China. Sometimes nothing helps, but we take what assurances we can.

Surely...a battery maker with a radical new product that had ironclad results to back it, could offer a radical warranty backed by a performance bond? A cycle counter embedded in the battery case (like laptops) that counted actual cycles, and a bond with a highly rated holder to reimburse the pro-rated battery costs if the battery didn't meet the claims?

I say that because some 30 years ago a high-dollar equipment manufacturer polled a number of customers, quietly suggesting they were going to introduce a machine at 19,999 to compete with machines costing 6x that price, and that it would have a 30-day warranty. The industry norm was to sell service contracts, not just machines, so the warranty was really just an initial break before you bought a sevice contract. Still, I said I don't buy a toaster with a 30-day warranty. I kinow warranty service costs money, but if you believe in the machine, 30 days doesn't say so.

The machines were released at $20,995 with a one-year full warranty and service support, and they sold like hotcakes, partly because of that.

For the price of a LiFePo setup, with or without the exotic charge controllers that some vendors say are or aren't needed?

Sorry, I don't see any vendor really putting up a warranty that says they believe in their own product. Given the chances for user abuse, I know it is hard to argue for better battery warranties, but it could be done.

And they might just conquer a market that way.
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Old 06-01-2011, 06:43   #341
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We provide full (not pro-rated) factory warranty of 5 years to our customers for applications such as critical data centre UPS batteries and electric vehicle manufacturer's. Of course these are very specialized applications. Your average boat owner can't afford / doesn't need this level of battery protection where the customer is alerted by SMS or email anywhere in the world via the worldwide GlobeTRAC battery monitoring system before his battery fails and provides battery cell information directing the customer to the particular cell in the specific battery which is becoming out of specification so he can take corrective action before battery failure occurs.
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Old 06-01-2011, 08:01   #342
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Great thread! I've been away (busy with battery installations, etc.) and had to catch up a bit here...a lot to read! LifeTech's warranty is impressive as well as the starting battery, etc.!

For normal-sized yachts (which would most likely be the ones reading these threads) there are some very small nanophosphate start batteries out there like the Killacycle/Racecell (1.7lbs, 240A cranking). However these are most likely best used on racing boats where the weight savings matter; the capacity is very small (only 4.6Ah!) so care must be taken to have no loads other than starting (engine panel etc. powered by the house bank and the start batt charged with a battery-battery charger from the house also). Not for everyone!

Regarding house LiFePO4 banks, the IMOCA 60 I was working on this summer is "Mapfre", currently racing the Barcelona World Race. Of course I'll be rooting for them...:-)

I read a lot here about folks being worried about being on the "bleeding edge". Fortunately there are a lot of boats getting Genasun, Mastervolt, Valence, Accuwatt and other lithium systems nowadays. Here are some of the Genasun-supplied boats out there:

IMOCA 60 "Mapfre"; 3 x 100Ah x 24V
Gunboat 90 by Morelli & Melvin; 2 x 900Ah x 24V
Huckins 45 "Northern Spy"; 2 x 360Ah x 12V
65ft Cruising cat by Morelli & Melvin; 2 x 360Ah x 24V
J35C "Brainwaves"; 2 x 100Ah x 12V
Reichel-Pugh 100 Super-Maxi; 2 x 100Ah x 24V
Reichel-Pugh 75 Maxi; 2 x 200Ah x 24V
55ft cat by Chris White; 2 x 360Ah x 12V
10 x Mini 650; Various configurations Coming soon (as of Jan 2011):
Volvo 70 "Movistar"; custom 920Ah x 24V
65ft cat by Morelli & Melvin; 2 x 360Ah x 24V (sistership to the 65ft cat above)
68ft Sloop by Brooklin Boatyard/SWW; 2 x 180Ah x 24V
55ft cat by Chris White; 2 x 360Ah x 12V

That's just one brand, I'm sure if you add in the others you're talking about a lot of boats!

Regarding warranty, I know that Genasun is doing 2yrs (covers DOD to 100% of rated capacity) and is considering extending that out longer. LifeTech's 5yrs for the critical apps is certainly impressive.
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Old 06-01-2011, 19:02   #343
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We provide full (not pro-rated) factory warranty of 5 years to our customers for applications such as critical data centre UPS batteries and electric vehicle manufacturer's. Of course these are very specialized applications. Your average boat owner can't afford / doesn't need this level of battery protection where the customer is alerted by SMS or email anywhere in the world via the worldwide GlobeTRAC battery monitoring system before his battery fails and provides battery cell information directing the customer to the particular cell in the specific battery which is becoming out of specification so he can take corrective action before battery failure occurs.
Oh contraire, mon amis! A boater 1000 miles from help requires far more than this - he requires a battery bank which is basically bullet-proof. SMS messaging or e-mail is totally - totally - useless in a bluewater cruising yacht on the high seas. It's a different market entirely. You're away from any kind of infrastructure. At least a hospital, with a critical care unit equipped with a generator-backed UPS system, is within reasonable distance of a local field engineer who can carry a new cell in the bed of his pickup truck or lorry. Money-back guarantee doesn't work out there on the ocean - the battery has to flat-out work...
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Old 06-01-2011, 19:36   #344
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"The battery has to flat out work"....absolutely agree with that!
The way you ensure the best performance and reliability is to use the highest quality cells which are closely matched in terms of-
1) actual cell capacity
2) internal cell impedance

That way even if your BMS fails (or an electronic component in it fails) your battery will still provide the best performance. Alternatively for racing applications where every ounce of weight saved is of importance if you run a battery pack with matched cells you can remove the BMS entirely which saves some weight/space and removes any possibility of electronic components in the BMS which could possibly fail (due to Murphy's law at the worst possible time as is always the case).
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Old 06-01-2011, 19:36   #345
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I have to defend LifeTech here a bit...

How many lead/gel/agm battery systems meet your description of "bulletproof" How many have a low-voltage cutoff so that if you make a mistake and leave on some loads and run it flat? The South Pacific and Caribbean islands are littered with countless dead lead/gel/agm batteries from improper charging, lack of maintainence an the lack of overdischarge and overcharge protection.

A quality lithium system, properly installed, is pretty much idiot-proof. Of course there are different levels of protection from brand to brand and different philosophies, so research before you buy (like anything else).

Not to say that there's anything wrong with a good flooded lead, gel, or agm battery, but they DO require a reasonable amount of knowledge and care to get the rated life out of them. And the correct charging profile and voltages vary from brand to brand, so most users don't even know what is right for the batteries they have.

A strong argument can be made that if you are indeed going to be thousands of miles from anywhere, out of range of service facilities that you're much better off with a good lithium system!
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