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Old 29-10-2016, 19:28   #5461
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Re: LiFePO4 Batteries: Discussion Thread for Those Using Them as House Banks

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Hurricane Matthew and some other things together killed my 2P4S 700Ah Winston cells. Still have some capacity, but had to remove some badly bulged cells.

Aya Crumba Amigo....
I don't want to force you to relive the nightmare too soon, but the group would surely benefit from hearing what happened! Real life failure stories are worth their weight in Gold to others, even if painful for you to share.

Thanks
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Old 30-10-2016, 12:04   #5462
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Re: LiFePO4 Batteries: Discussion Thread for Those Using Them as House Banks

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The only strategy that delivered solid, consistent results throughout the year and seasons has been Charge/Absorb/Terminate and then just make up for consumption to use any energy available and extend discharge cycles until it is time to recharge again.
This is precisely what we do. It requires human intervention, plus a protective BMS, until a BMS that can control all sources can meet this situation.

Unfortunately a BMS has no idea when you might be able to recharge again, so at what point should it turn back on when the opportunity presents..? This is a tough puzzle with tough questions to answer when we have multiple charge sources. It is much easier for other applications that use Li technology with only one charge source.
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Old 31-10-2016, 08:20   #5463
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Re: LiFePO4 Batteries: Discussion Thread for Those Using Them as House Banks

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This is precisely what we do. It requires human intervention, plus a protective BMS, until a BMS that can control all sources can meet this situation.

Unfortunately a BMS has no idea when you might be able to recharge again, so at what point should it turn back on when the opportunity presents..? This is a tough puzzle with tough questions to answer when we have multiple charge sources. It is much easier for other applications that use Li technology with only one charge source.
This is my dilemma and why I asked. I have yet to experiment much with LiFePO4 much on my own yet (worked with a few early systems for work that had rather complex BMS systems and almost always charged with a AC powered charger). On a boat with limited solar and limited use in the summer from a mooring. Being able to charge like I do with the current batteries works really well (usually a week or more between uses). But it would be nice to have more capacity in the same space, hence looking to lithium, but I don't see an easy soloution to restarting the solar charging. Shutting off when a certain current is reached isn't to bad, but when do you turn it back on? Do you just have it turn on at certain intervals to test it?
Now on a family members boat with no current solar and just charging from the alternator it should work well with the right settings but even then twice a year he motors it 10 hours at a time to reach its winter storage but having a reduced float voltage around 13.5 would be enough for that short of a time.
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Old 31-10-2016, 12:01   #5464
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Re: LiFePO4 Batteries: Discussion Thread for Those Using Them as House Banks

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This is my dilemma and why I asked. I have yet to experiment much with LiFePO4 much on my own yet (worked with a few early systems for work that had rather complex BMS systems and almost always charged with a AC powered charger). On a boat with limited solar and limited use in the summer from a mooring. Being able to charge like I do with the current batteries works really well (usually a week or more between uses). But it would be nice to have more capacity in the same space, hence looking to lithium, but I don't see an easy soloution to restarting the solar charging. Shutting off when a certain current is reached isn't to bad, but when do you turn it back on? Do you just have it turn on at certain intervals to test it?
Now on a family members boat with no current solar and just charging from the alternator it should work well with the right settings but even then twice a year he motors it 10 hours at a time to reach its winter storage but having a reduced float voltage around 13.5 would be enough for that short of a time.
Ah...solar...that's the real challenge for charging LiFePO4 banks, due to their nature of being a relatively slow charge (in comparison to Alternators/Battery Chargers) and the highly variable nature..day/clouds/mast shading...etc.

It's much easier in my opinion anyway (but remember I'm just a Cruiser Bozo) to deal with the relative short charge events of a Generator/Shore Power Battery charger run or Alternator. It's an on/off event over a typical discrete time frame.

So the Irony here is that the hardest charge source to deal with on a cruising boat with a LiFePO4 bank is also the most highly desired...Solar.

I think this is easy for a full time cruiser/liveaboard who at a glance can check the SOC of his battery bank and is going through the typical Charge/Discharge cycles on a daily basis. 90% of my LiFePO4 batter charging comes from my Solar and I only rarely run my Battery Charger and never my alternator. Never my alternator frankly because I'm living aboard on a mooring and only make a 300yrd run once a week to the pump out dock and back, so I just turned my alternator off. I don't want to run a 120Hp Ford Lehman motor to run a 100A alternator...it's just doesn't make sense for me. But I will have to rework this part of the charge system soon if this is the boat we take south back to Mexico in two years...ahem...shhhh...Lori has forbid me from talking about that on Social Media yet because she doesn't want to have to deal with parents and grandparents freaking out..ha ha ha

So with my solar array, I'm able to put back what I use overnight and then carry the load throughout the day. A few days a clouds and rain and I fire up the Honda 2000 and run a 60A battery charger (Sterling 60A) but that's not my normal every day routine. Now since I live on solar I've spend a LOT of time in the last almost 3yrs dialing this charge approach of full time mooring living. That's what gives me the confidence to say that I'm comfortable in using the voltage set-point as my charge "regulator" for my LiFePO4 bank. I'm here sitting at the desk staring at the Amp hour counters for in/out as well as the individual cell voltages, so I know things are working well and are happy. Would this be the set-up for a boater that leaves his boat for 6 months at a time or is more of am absentee owner? No...I would turn off the solar in that situation.

This is where I think the perceived disagreement comes from:
If you don't take into account what the Boater/Cruiser wants/needs but rather only offer advice and design for a LiFePO4 bank for an unmanned Cell Tower with zero human monitoring and support...then well...it IS more complicated and you want all the bells and whistles. Key here is that the end user Educated Himself and then apply that knowledge to Their Situation. Maybe they want a set-it and forget-it system and are willing to spend the money for it...but is that needed/warranted by ALL cruisers that want the benefits of LiFePO4 batteries. My answer and experience is no...but remember as I said...I'm just a Cruising Bozo.
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Old 31-10-2016, 12:49   #5465
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Re: LiFePO4 Batteries: Discussion Thread for Those Using Them as House Banks

Hey Rich , well said . People always ask me why I didn't do solar and quite frankly it's just a personal preference. The little generator is happy to pound the amps hours in my bank when ever I need them. But I have room for a generator and large tanks, the damn thing hardly runs and burns nothing . So this works for me . I have a friend in the Islands "Rick Moore" he is dying to have a set of LiFeP04 batteries and he wants to only run them on solar . He has no room for a generator and already has a good sized array . So that works for him .
As you said this is not a plug and play system and to make it that way would make it very complicated. So yes if we really want this technology we had better educate our selfs on it or plan to pay dearly for some one to build and install a plug and play custom system to your personal needs . And it will be complicated LOL .
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Old 31-10-2016, 17:36   #5466
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Re: LiFePO4 Batteries: Discussion Thread for Those Using Them as House Banks

We must be doing everything wrong here, running with solar, no human-BMS and the simplest systems I have ever seen that can actually be called systems and offered to others without a copy of the Human-BMS Bible and risking jail time.

No settings, no Holy Voltage, no cell boards, no lousy excuses for running engines, no watching the Lithium Channel on Battery TV, fully protected, near-zero power consumption, one wire from a small BMS module to a solid state switch to cut the panels in and out. And it has been working all on its own for two years, winter, summer, in-between and when people go away.
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Old 31-10-2016, 17:51   #5467
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Re: LiFePO4 Batteries: Discussion Thread for Those Using Them as House Banks

Coat....no mention of the cost of said system?
Spare parts? Can an average Cruiser install and operate it?
It uses off the shelf parts available in Mexico or a Caribbean island so you don't lose your battery Bank when Eisenshine BMS fails of course...right?

But don't worry, we will give you a LiFePO4 indulgence from the Church, your sins are forgiven brother; even the ones about you being grumpy that others have a different approach.

You can always count on the "my way is the best and only way folks" feeling threatened by rank ammatures having success with a vastly simpler and Cruiser KISS simple system. But don't worry there will be plenty of folks that don't want/understand/like the KISS approach and they will buy your BMS, I'm sure.

Opps...I don't mean to get in your way so I'll just take my 3 years of experience living completely on the hook with Lithium-ion batteries and be quiet... I'm crazy after all with nothing to contribute. I'm sure lots of people have three years of real life experience with LiFePO4 batteries on a boat... I'm a bozo anyway...best write me off as a cook, it will help you sleep better at night..it does me.
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Old 31-10-2016, 18:51   #5468
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Re: LiFePO4 Batteries: Discussion Thread for Those Using Them as House Banks

Each one of them cost several millions of dollars, Rich, because I have been two years putting time into this stuff and basically recouping material costs. It has been a development project. Just the disconnector relays cost us a FULL TWO HUNDRED BUCKS for the pair, for each of us.
Many systems went to ordinary retired folks quietly living on board and cruising around. They used to give me a call now and then to tell me how they were going. Now we hardly ever talk about our batteries when we meet, the novelty has kind of worn off, you see.
Most got a little casual about the whole lithium thing over time. They sometimes trip the LV protection in winter and I will let you in on a secret: we don't care! It doesn't matter! We charge, use the juice, stuff can screw up and nothing really matters.

But keep watching Battery TV and pray that nothing fails precisely, I don't want to distract you from that success, haha.
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Old 31-10-2016, 18:59   #5469
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Re: LiFePO4 Batteries: Discussion Thread for Those Using Them as House Banks

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But keep watching Battery TV and pray that nothing fails precisely, I don't want to distract you from that success, haha.
Finally...now if my kids will stop distracting me and move off the Boat, I'm heading back to Mexico to continue cruising...but who knows...maybe the boat will catch fire first from my LiFePO4 battery Russian Roulette...
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Old 01-11-2016, 06:19   #5470
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Re: LiFePO4 Batteries: Discussion Thread for Those Using Them as House Banks

Sorry you lost your bank. I can't help with sourcing more cells. Can you tell us about your installation?
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Old 01-11-2016, 09:09   #5471
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Re: LiFePO4 Batteries: Discussion Thread for Those Using Them as House Banks

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Originally Posted by OceanSeaSpray View Post
We must be doing everything wrong here, running with solar, no human-BMS and the simplest systems I have ever seen that can actually be called systems and offered to others without a copy of the Human-BMS Bible and risking jail time.

No settings, no Holy Voltage, no cell boards, no lousy excuses for running engines, no watching the Lithium Channel on Battery TV, fully protected, near-zero power consumption, one wire from a small BMS module to a solid state switch to cut the panels in and out. And it has been working all on its own for two years, winter, summer, in-between and when people go away.
As a follow up what are you using as a set point to reconnect solar. I mean the system isn't to hard to do I'm just wondering what event you use? I assume you could monitor SOC but that can be a bit challenging to do realistically. I was thinking you could set a point when the draw on the bank goes over a certain level to reconnect solar, but I was wondering about reconnecting in general after low draws (like stereo memory or some other draw left on) bring the bank down over a few weeks. Do you reconnect on a timer and check the acceptance rate or some other method?
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Old 02-11-2016, 00:03   #5472
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Re: LiFePO4 Batteries: Discussion Thread for Those Using Them as House Banks

I use a bmv700 to monitor SOC, works like a charm. It even has a switching output to switch on/off charging sources. I use that to switch the PS on at 60% and off at 90%. The power supply is set to 13.8V as are all charge sources to prevent over charging. I always have consumers on. Fridge to name one. Seems to work so far.

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Old 13-11-2016, 04:16   #5473
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Re: LiFePO4 Batteries: Discussion Thread for Those Using Them as House Banks

Smart Battery offers a line of 12V Lithium Batteries designed as a drop in replacement from Lead Acid, Gel and AGM Batteries that are plug and play for marine applications. In the video link below they provide one of the most important solutions to this thread, Safety. The main issue with all lithium batteries is how to prevent a cell from overheating and rupturing if over charged. Smart Battery has several layers of safety redundancy systems at the cell level. The most noteable safety feature is the internal thermal fuse between the anode and cathode that will shut down the cell before the temperature rises, preventing pressure build up and activating the 1.5Mpa safety vent. If the thermal fuse failed and pressure was released through the safety vent, the electrolyte has a flame retardant additive making the battery safe. These conditions would likely only occur if a charger or controller failed spiking current into the battery. The BPS is designed to protect the cells from this anomaly by opening at 15.8V and would have to fail in the closed state allowing excess current into the cells. The Group 31 - 12V 100AH is built with 80 cylindrical 3.2V 5AH (32650) cells combined with 4 sets of 20 cells in parallel and then combined in series. All 80 cells are matched by measuring 10 consistencies during several charge / discharge cycles at the end of production.

I looking forward to providing more specific details as requested. Here are some useful links-

https://youtu.be/MEe_F9jY-cM

http://www.lithiumion-batteries.com/...sign%20PDF.pdf

Smart Battery protection System

Cylindrical Vs Prismatic Cells
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Old 14-11-2016, 11:10   #5474
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Re: LiFePO4 Batteries: Discussion Thread for Those Using Them as House Banks

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Originally Posted by Smartpresident View Post
Smart Battery offers a line of 12V Lithium Batteries designed as a drop in replacement from Lead Acid, Gel and AGM Batteries that are plug and play for marine applications. In the video link below they provide one of the most important solutions to this thread, Safety. The main issue with all lithium batteries is how to prevent a cell from overheating and rupturing if over charged. Smart Battery has several layers of safety redundancy systems at the cell level. The most noteable safety feature is the internal thermal fuse between the anode and cathode that will shut down the cell before the temperature rises, preventing pressure build up and activating the 1.5Mpa safety vent. If the thermal fuse failed and pressure was released through the safety vent, the electrolyte has a flame retardant additive making the battery safe. These conditions would likely only occur if a charger or controller failed spiking current into the battery. The BPS is designed to protect the cells from this anomaly by opening at 15.8V and would have to fail in the closed state allowing excess current into the cells. The Group 31 - 12V 100AH is built with 80 cylindrical 3.2V 5AH (32650) cells combined with 4 sets of 20 cells in parallel and then combined in series. All 80 cells are matched by measuring 10 consistencies during several charge / discharge cycles at the end of production.

I looking forward to providing more specific details as requested. Here are some useful links-

https://youtu.be/MEe_F9jY-cM

http://www.lithiumion-batteries.com/...sign%20PDF.pdf

Smart Battery protection System

Cylindrical Vs Prismatic Cells

I guess the questions (as it's being marketed as a drop in) is how the battery handles charging sources set up for AGM and flooded batteries.
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Old 14-11-2016, 11:27   #5475
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Re: LiFePO4 Batteries: Discussion Thread for Those Using Them as House Banks

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I guess the questions (as it's being marketed as a drop in) is how the battery handles charging sources set up for AGM and flooded batteries.
If the charger is currently set up as AGM and is not programmable it may work fine as is. There are many different algorithms charger manufacturers use for AGM batteries. If your AGM charging source reaches between 14.4V to 14.6V during charging it will fully charge the lithium battery. If the charger does not charge up to 14.4V during charging it may not top off the battery, depending on what voltage it charges up to will determine how much of a charge it gets. Not reaching 14.4V will not hurt the battery and only limits the amount of capacity you are able to use.
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