LiFePO4 Batteries: Discussion Thread for Those Using Them as House Banks

[T1 Terry]

Some times I wonder why I bother, I'm not going to try and argue with those that seem to know it all.
Seriously, Sinopoly use the same materials and formula as Winston, they were the same company and Sinopoly had to pay a small fortune to get the rights to use the improved compound formulas as they belonged to Winston Chung, not Thundersky, this included a revised electrolyte compound that allows lower cell temp stability but does trade off a bit of the higher temp stability. The LFP and LYFP are different, all the different chemistry Li cells have different characteristics and the range of different electrolyte compounds available mean the cells operating temp can be moved up or down through quite wide range. The lithium ferrous battery is still evolving, it had to evolve to a wider temp operating base to break into the domestic market because some parts of China do actually drop below 0 deg C
Perhaps you should spend a bit of time and watch the video again from the master of this technology Prof Jay Whitacre.

T1 Terry

[FlyingCloud1937]

That's one story.

Another is Winston sold his company, and then started another using the same tech he sold.

Then he got suited.

It seems he was good at science, bad at business.

Maybe it was bad at ethics, or maybe he was bad at hiring LAWYERS.

But the common thread that follows Winston, is deals gone bad.

Some are known for the GOLDEN TOUCH, I don't think History will avail him .

The only thing that he has touched, that turned out Golden, was a technology that he didn't invent, but pursued early.

Every of his other deals have all gone south.

Would YOU VOLUNTEER to be his business partner? Knowing that he leaves a debris field larger then his persona?

Lloyd

Originally Posted by T1 Terry

Some times I wonder why I bother, I'm not going to try and argue with those that seem to know it all.
Seriously, Sinopoly use the same materials and formula as Winston, they were the same company and Sinopoly had to pay a small fortune to get the rights to use the improved compound formulas as they belonged to Winston Chung, not Thundersky, this included a revised electrolyte compound that allows lower cell temp stability but does trade off a bit of the higher temp stability. The LFP and LYFP are different, all the different chemistry Li cells have different characteristics and the range of different electrolyte compounds available mean the cells operating temp can be moved up or down through quite wide range. The lithium ferrous battery is still evolving, it had to evolve to a wider temp operating base to break into the domestic market because some parts of China do actually drop below 0 deg C
Perhaps you should spend a bit of time and watch the video again from the master of this technology Prof Jay Whitacre.

T1 Terry

[T1 Terry]

You must be feeling confident that he won't use your own countries deformation laws against you Lloyd. None of your version matches the actual time line of events, but why let facts get in the way of a good bit of slander eh

T1 Terry

[goboatingnow]

Originally Posted by T1 Terry

Some times I wonder why I bother, I'm not going to try and argue with those that seem to know it all.
Seriously, Sinopoly use the same materials and formula as Winston, they were the same company and Sinopoly had to pay a small fortune to get the rights to use the improved compound formulas as they belonged to Winston Chung, not Thundersky, this included a revised electrolyte compound that allows lower cell temp stability but does trade off a bit of the higher temp stability. The LFP and LYFP are different, all the different chemistry Li cells have different characteristics and the range of different electrolyte compounds available mean the cells operating temp can be moved up or down through quite wide range. The lithium ferrous battery is still evolving, it had to evolve to a wider temp operating base to break into the domestic market because some parts of China do actually drop below 0 deg C
Perhaps you should spend a bit of time and watch the video again from the master of this technology Prof Jay Whitacre.

T1 Terry

just a small point , don't you mean the cathode materials change,( the anode being mainly graphite) the electrolyte , tends to be fairly constant , i.e. a Lithium salt.

Id like to see any peer review on Yttrium as a contributor to cold charging ability. The main problem is the freezing of the electrolyte and the resultant plating issues. I do see some benefit in LYP as regards discharge performance. BUT, battery specs sheets, especially Chinese battery specs, are notoriously unreliable.

Dave

[goboatingnow]

Note in my previous post , I referred to the freezing of the electrolyte, this is related to ultimate low temperature performance, Here I try and deal with the issues related to sub zero ( c) performance and why it drops off dramatically in commercial cells.

For those of you with an academic bent I would cite

"Research on cathode material of Li-ion battery by yttrium doping,JOURNAL OF RARE EARTHS, Vol. 26, No. 2, Apr. 2008, p. 279 by TIAN Yanwen (田彦文)1, KANG Xiaoxue (康晓雪)1, LIU Liying(刘丽英)2, XU Chaqing (徐茶青)1, QU Tao (曲 涛)1"

Certainly its clear from that article that Y doping in LiFePo4 in certain amounts improves both initial discharge ability and also cyclic performance was improved. This is because Yttrium doping improves the conductivity of the cell over that of non doped Lifepo4 cathodes .

Low temperature performance of LI cells, is still a matter of considerable scientific debate, but can be summarised as

(a) reduced conductivity of the electrolyte and solid electrolyte interface on the elec- trod surface
(b) limited diffusivity of lithium ions within graphite anode
(c) high polarization of the graphite anode, ( as per (b)
(d) substantially increased charge-transfer resistance on the electrolyte–electrode interfaces

( S.S. Zhang∗, K. Xu, T.R. Jow, Electrochemical impedance study on the low temperature of Li-ion batteries,US Army Research Laboratory, Adelphi, MD 20783-1197, US, Electrochimica Acta 49 (2004) 1057–1061.)

Of this the primary factor has been to kinetics of Ion transfer at low temperature, and it has been shown that while discharge can occur at increasingly lower temperatures, the equivalent resistance of the cell reaction kinetics, increases with discharge at low termoperatures , making re-charging such cells difficult or even impossible at low temperature.


The key thing here is that Yttrium doping was designed to counter the lower conductivity and improve cyclic performance, in an attempt to recover some of the energy capacity lost in deploying LiFepO4 as a cathodic material. It has little or no effect on temperature.

As is pointed out in the above article, commercial grade LI-ion suffers greatly from low temperatures, a typical 18650 cell, will have less then 5% of original room temperature capacity at -40 degree C ( electrolyte freezing point)


Its furthermore interesting that most of this research work, seems to be in the hands of Asians scientists , working in American research institutions from about 2000-2005, theres nothing new in Yttrium doping , nor is it exclusive to Winston Chung.


What this means, is that for commercial LIfePo4 cells ( with or without doping) both Lithiation and delithiation become very poor at temperatures below zero, primarily due to the kinetics around the Graphite anode. Note that often manufacturers temperature limits , merely mean the battery can be technically used at stated low temperature, ( i.e. the electrolyte will no freeze) , it does NOT mean that in particular the standard charging regime can be applied at sub zero conditions,

IN particular at low temperatures , The battery is easy to "voltage stress " , to simply it looks like a battery of significantly reduced capacity and applying a standard charging regime will over stress the battery and cause irreversible plating of the electrodes. Subsequent attempts can then cause massive oxidisation of the electrolyte and the usual Li issues.

Li technology can be improved with exotic anodes etc and much research is ongoing , but today what we get in commercial cells is not in any way optimised for low temperatures.


Dave

[goboatingnow]

furthermore

It should be pointed out that in certain cells the Lithium dendrites that form on the Anode during charging grow rapidly during sub zero situations and in certain packaging situations can cause shorts etc. ( this tends to be a further factor in cylindric packaging, where the anodes and cathodes can be extremely close. Hence many manufacturers ban below zero recharging to avoid the issue entirely

Again this has nothing to do with Yttrium doping of the cathode.


Heres a useful article and graphic on LI failures, remember LiFerrous only really affects the thermal runaway characteristics , everything else is the same



Lithium Battery Failures


dave

[diugo]

I notice a jump in the internal resistance of my 3 y/o Balqon Specials even at 10°C---which fortunately is about as cold as they usually get.

But it makes me wonder whether the plating-while-charging issue starts to manifest even above 0°C...

[FlyingCloud1937]

Gee T1,

Here are the facts and the timeline.


Dec 2009 The Company entered into a letter of intent to purchase a lithium battery project for HK$2.75 billion
Circular

pertinent facts; “Licensed Products” any products manufactured or sold, or services performed, by
Thunder Sky (HK) or its affiliates which, if not otherwise
manufactured, sold or performed pursuant to the Patent
License Deed, would infringe any claim of the Licensed
Patents, or would infringe, violate or misappropriate any
Relevant IPR

May 2010 The Acquisition in relation to the lithium battery project is completed
Announcement

pertinent facts; The Board is pleased to announce that the Acquisition has been completed on 25 May 2010.
The Board would also like to announce that (i) Mr. So George Siu Ming has resigned as the chief operating officer of the Company with effect from 25 May 2010; (ii) Mr. Chung Hing Ka (aka Wintston Chung)has been appointed as an executive director, the deputy chairman and the chief technical officer of the Company with effect from 25 May 2010; and (iii) Mr. Miao Zhenguo has been appointed as an executive director and the chief operating officer of the Company, and a member of the
Executive Committee of the Company with effect from 25 May 2010.

2013-02-27

Announcements and Notices - Voluntary Announcement Bankruptcy Order against Winston Chung







pertinent facts; VOLUNTARY ANNOUNCEMENT
BANKRUPTCY ORDER AGAINST WINSTON CHUNG
Sinopoly Battery Limited (the “Company”) was made aware that in the Bankruptcy Proceedings No. 4005 of 2012 of the High Court of The Hong Kong Special Administrative Region, the Court of First Instance in a judgment dated 27 February 2013 made an order for bankruptcy against Mr. Winston Chung (formerly known as Chung Hing Ka) who is currently involved in legal proceedings with the Company and/or its subsidiaries.

By order of the Board Sinopoly Battery Limited
Jaime Che
Executive Director
Hong Kong, 27 February 2013
As of the date of this announcement, the board of directors of the Company comprises Mr. Miao Zhenguo (Deputy Chairman and Chief Executive Officer), Mr. Lo Wing Yat, Mr. Xu Donghui (Chief Operating
Officer) and Mr. Jaime Che (Vice President) as executive directors; Professor Chen Guohua as non-executive director; and Mr. Chan Yuk Tong, Mr. Fei Tai Hung and Mr. Tse Kam Fow as independent non-executive directors

So T1, Notice the above Board no longer holds Winston Chung, as he was removed.

Facts are facts not opinions such as yours.

Lloyd

Originally Posted by T1 Terry

You must be feeling confident that he won't use your own countries deformation laws against you Lloyd. None of your version matches the actual time line of events, but why let facts get in the way of a good bit of slander eh

T1 Terry

[darylat8750]

dave,

Do your write for a news paper? Great big misleading headline with about half your red graph not applicable then small case misleading disclaimer. We should ignore everything above temperature and pressure increase.

[GILow]

I apologise if this has been answered already, but with over 3000 posts to read, I gave up daunted after the first 200, trying to find out if these 12V "bundled" LiFePO4 batteries have any issues I should be aware of.

EV Works Pty Ltd

If understand them correctly they are already balanced when you buy them, and aside from adjusting your charging system parameters/equipment, they can be used as a "drop in" replacement in some situations. If this has been covered already can someone point me at the approximate post number.

Thanks, Matt.

[goboatingnow]

Originally Posted by darylat8750

dave,

Do your write for a news paper? Great big misleading headline with about half your red graph not applicable then small case misleading disclaimer. We should ignore everything above temperature and pressure increase.

Sorry what part are you disagreeing with

Dave

[Jd1]

Just a 'heads up' re Balqon....
I finally made up my mind about the batteries I was going to put into my boat and decided to confirm that stock was available. Both 200Ah and 400Ah cells show as 'in stock' on the Balqon web site but are in fact not in stock. I am not sure I want to risk ordering stuff that might take 8 weeks to get with the rumour mill working overtime on possible financial issues at Balqon. I will have to contemplate life over this for a bit.
On the bright side - anything ordered prior to the end of the year will ship with zero freight cost to continental US addresses.

[deckofficer]

Originally Posted by Jd1

Just a 'heads up' re Balqon....
I finally made up my mind about the batteries I was going to put into my boat and decided to confirm that stock was available. Both 200Ah and 400Ah cells show as 'in stock' on the Balqon web site but are in fact not in stock. I am not sure I want to risk ordering stuff that might take 8 weeks to get with the rumour mill working overtime on possible financial issues at Balqon. I will have to contemplate life over this for a bit.
On the bright side - anything ordered prior to the end of the year will ship with zero freight cost to continental US addresses.

That is a hard decision. Free freight is a substantial savings and Balqon still has the lowest prices to boot. The delays for not being in stock combined with rumors of the business health of Balqon would raise concern. When I order more cells from Balqon I will keep all here posted as I did on my last order. Of course it goes without saying, use your credit card so that you have that protection if product isn't shipped in the prescribed time. May not hurt to also remind Balqon that you will be reporting your experiences on a marine forum. They remember their business spike from the marine sector when I ordered cells.

[Dashby]

Firstly thank you to all who have posted on this thread and sharing their experiences.
It gave me the confidence to try LiFePO4 batteries as a replacement for 400Ah of Lead acid more than a year ago.

We bought a 200Ah LiFeYPO4 battery from a local wholesaler/importer.

Installed it as they suggested with a battery monitor installed and a relay set to disconnect the battery if it reached 35% discharge.
We had our yacht on charter with a limited number of users using it over the summer period but no one checked the shore charger.

Shore power and shore charger failed to charge battery up to 100% and one of the charterers took the boat out with only 35% of charge in the batteries.
He thought the battery would charge up using the alternator and so turned a bypass on overriding the relay unfortunately the alternator was not connected properly or cut out due to overheating.

Battery charged a little during 2 hours engine running but not enough and then they left the bypass on while they ran batteries down over night to under 10%.
By the time they called me the batteries were down to 5% and so I asked them to disconnect the house system and run the boat back.

They ignored my request and motored back trying to charge batteries up at full current draw.
By the time I got to the battery one cell was toast (swollen up with a dead short) so battery bank was now 10.7V instead of 14.4V. The other cells had been overcharged and also swollen.

End result was stuffed battery and had to replace.
New batteries are 160Ah Winston LiFePO4 cells 8 off.

The new control system includes a CleanPower LLC battery monitor/ balancing system as well as the existing Voltronic display unit and monitoring of overall Ah.
Also replaced the engine alternator with a 12V 110A unit with new larger cables and a dedicated voltage regulator set specifically for the LiFePO4 Winston batteries.

All up it was an expensive lesson on how to install and protect a modest House battery bank.
But now we have been using the yacht for 12 months the house battery and charging system works extremely well and the cells have remained top balanced.
We have only drawn the battery bank down to 60% when sailing for 24 hours with both the fridge and freezer operating with nav lights and instruments.
It took just 90min to charge back to 95%.

[deckofficer]

Dashby,

Thanks for sharing. I cringed reading the post. For charter the systems need to be idiot proof, sorry for your loss. Otherwise, are you happy with the cells? Have you voted in the LiFePO4 poll? http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/...o4-115331.html