Cruisers Forum
 


Join CruisersForum Today

Reply
 
Thread Tools Rating: Thread Rating: 33 votes, 4.82 average. Display Modes
Old 17-01-2013, 11:13   #1156
Senior Cruiser
 
senormechanico's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Aug 2003
Boat: Dragonfly 1000 trimaran
Posts: 5,205
Re: LiFePO4 Batteries: Discussion Thread for Those Using Them as House Banks

Quote:
Originally Posted by nimblemotors View Post
I'm sorry, but you haven't done your research.

If it was just BMS vendors selling you stuff that wasted money for useless features it wouldn't be so bad, but a system which top-balances on every charge is reducing their life, and some are even dangerous enough to create a fire and destroy YOUR ENTIRE BOAT.

JackB
How?
If the BMS keeps the cells within their voltage parameters, I don't see a problem.

Please explain.
__________________

__________________
"I have never understood why it is "greed" to want to keep the money you have earned,
but not greed to want to take somebody else's money"

-Thomas Sowell
senormechanico is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 17-01-2013, 11:25   #1157
Registered User
 
deckofficer's Avatar

Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: Northern and Southern California
Boat: too many
Posts: 4,197
Images: 4
Re: LiFePO4 Batteries: Discussion Thread for Those Using Them as House Banks

Quote:
Originally Posted by mcarling View Post
I think we need to distinguish between balancing once before installation versus a continuous attempt to keep them balanced. I haven't seen any evidence that cells diverge after having been balanced once and there have been reports here of convergence (at least with moderate C values).

My current inclination is to balance once and then once a year check individual cell voltages. I have no intention of buying a BMS. Your windage may vary.
That is why I have two packs and one BMS. I need to prove to myself if both packs are treated well and cycled, charged, in the same way, do I need a BMS. My thoughts are if you always get better than 5 years service from your AGM batteries, you care for your batteries in a proper way and don't need BMS for your lithium cells. If you never get more than 3 years service from your LA's, then maybe you need BMS to preclude your shortcomings in basic care of a battery.

I still use the iphone I bought in 2007, I know it has BMS, but on my part I never ran it low, and the most important thing, never left it in a discharged state for any length of time. From what I have seen, that is the number one reason for short battery life, leaving them discharged for any length of time.
__________________

__________________
Bob
USCG Unlimited Tonnage Open Ocean (CMA)
http://tbuckets.lefora.com/
deckofficer is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 17-01-2013, 11:34   #1158
Nearly an old salt
 
goboatingnow's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 13,649
Images: 3
Re: LiFePO4 Batteries: Discussion Thread for Those Using Them as House Banks

Quote:
I still use the iphone I bought in 2007, I know it has BMS, but on my part I never ran it low, and the most important thing, never left it in a discharged state for any length of time. From what I have seen, that is the number one reason for short battery life, leaving them discharged for any length of time.
Li is sensitive to normal discharge like LA, it can be left discharged.

Li dies just by sitting there. Then thats exacerbated by charge cycles. BUt in LiCo, the static life cycle is a big big factor ini them dying not the charging regime.



Dave
__________________
Check out my new blog on smart boat technology, networking and gadgets for the connected sailor! - http://smartboats.tumblr.com
goboatingnow is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 17-01-2013, 11:35   #1159
Registered User
 
careka's Avatar

Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Egersund,Norway
Boat: Lagoon380 Comfort#637
Posts: 701
Images: 2
Send a message via Skype™ to careka
Re: LiFePO4 Batteries: Discussion Thread for Those Using Them as House Banks

Quote:
Originally Posted by hellosailor View Post
Many cars, fully electric? Better odds for electric boats, because docks usually have power posts these days.

Cars? Nuh-uh. Cities are not going to put power posts on street parking, too expensive, can't exclude the gassers either. Condos and coops with parling lots and assigned parking aren't going to install them, can't afford to break up the concrete and invest themajor money. Homeowners? OK, some will spend a couple of grand to do it in their garage, if they have one. Apartment dwellers? Can't do it.
We have a lot of public places where you can charge your EL car. and more is comming.
i drove a NISSAN LEAF yesterday for 75 km, and that was done in temp minus 3-6 Celsius. heating inside. very nice EL car. i charge it in my garage during the nigth and drowe it back in same temp, this car had 25000km on the clock.
There will be a lot of them in the years to come,
a frend of me has ordered the first Tesla SUV to come to Norway, and it is # 13 to come to europa.
__________________
careka is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 17-01-2013, 11:35   #1160
Nearly an old salt
 
goboatingnow's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 13,649
Images: 3
Re: LiFePO4 Batteries: Discussion Thread for Those Using Them as House Banks

SO on average how many paralled based charge discharge cycles do these large cells need to overcome the initial balance issues.
__________________
Check out my new blog on smart boat technology, networking and gadgets for the connected sailor! - http://smartboats.tumblr.com
goboatingnow is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 17-01-2013, 11:42   #1161
Registered User
 
deckofficer's Avatar

Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: Northern and Southern California
Boat: too many
Posts: 4,197
Images: 4
Re: LiFePO4 Batteries: Discussion Thread for Those Using Them as House Banks

Quote:
Originally Posted by goboatingnow View Post
SO on average how many paralled based charge discharge cycles do these large cells need to overcome the initial balance issues.
I'll know in about 6 hours. It looks like just one top and bottom parallel balance, so two complete cycles (I hope).
__________________
Bob
USCG Unlimited Tonnage Open Ocean (CMA)
http://tbuckets.lefora.com/
deckofficer is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 17-01-2013, 12:10   #1162
Nearly an old salt
 
goboatingnow's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 13,649
Images: 3
Re: LiFePO4 Batteries: Discussion Thread for Those Using Them as House Banks

Quote:
Originally Posted by deckofficer View Post
I'll know in about 6 hours. It looks like just one top and bottom parallel balance, so two complete cycles (I hope).
why the need for bottom balance, do you have to draw them down so far. Ive tried just paralleing then and subjecting them to 2-3 charge discharge cycles. Seems to work.

Dave
__________________
Check out my new blog on smart boat technology, networking and gadgets for the connected sailor! - http://smartboats.tumblr.com
goboatingnow is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 17-01-2013, 12:47   #1163
Registered User
 
NahanniV's Avatar

Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: On the Boat
Boat: Finnsailer 38
Posts: 1,026
Re: LiFePO4 Batteries: Discussion Thread for Those Using Them as House Banks

Got My Cells from Balquon today.
4*400AHA
$230. shipping to Niagara Falls NY

They seem to be in good physical condition, but clearly used.
The bus bars and hardware which I had to pay for were also previously used. Annoying that the bus bars are not all the same and will require modification to allow the cells to be placed side by side without a gap (too long).

The cells appear to be from 2009.
code is "090906-F02XXX" XXX's are max. 81 apart.

I assume this means September 6th 2009 ?
If so, 39 months old. The oldest ones I've heard of on this thread

Voltages are within 10mV with two pairs identical.

I also got my PowerLog (big brother of the CellLog); What a cool little tool.
Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	DCP_0226.JPG
Views:	61
Size:	66.1 KB
ID:	53015   Click image for larger version

Name:	DCP_0227.JPG
Views:	64
Size:	69.8 KB
ID:	53016  

Click image for larger version

Name:	DCP_0228.JPG
Views:	603
Size:	70.8 KB
ID:	53017   Click image for larger version

Name:	DCP_0229.JPG
Views:	69
Size:	28.1 KB
ID:	53018  

__________________
NahanniV is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 17-01-2013, 13:15   #1164
Registered User
 
deckofficer's Avatar

Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: Northern and Southern California
Boat: too many
Posts: 4,197
Images: 4
Re: LiFePO4 Batteries: Discussion Thread for Those Using Them as House Banks

Quote:
Originally Posted by goboatingnow View Post
why the need for bottom balance, do you have to draw them down so far. Ive tried just paralleing then and subjecting them to 2-3 charge discharge cycles. Seems to work.

Dave
Dave,

I'm learning along with the rest. When I top balanced, it helped but needed more so I bottomed balanced and top balanced on the same parallel cycle. Since my PS can only muster 40 watts at cell voltage level, it takes a long time vs 750 watts the charger puts out at series pack voltage, but that is what it needed (Thanks Maine Sail).

NahanniV, welcome to the club, let the balancing begin and please keep us posted as to how it goes for you.
__________________
Bob
USCG Unlimited Tonnage Open Ocean (CMA)
http://tbuckets.lefora.com/
deckofficer is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 17-01-2013, 13:33   #1165
Registered User

Join Date: Mar 2011
Posts: 146
Re: LiFePO4 Batteries: Discussion Thread for Those Using Them as House Banks

Quote:
Originally Posted by NahanniV View Post
Got My Cells from Balquon today.
4*400AHA
$230. shipping to Niagara Falls NY

They seem to be in good physical condition, but clearly used.
The bus bars and hardware which I had to pay for were also previously used. Annoying that the bus bars are not all the same and will require modification to allow the cells to be placed side by side without a gap (too long).

<snip>

Do I understand correctly that all 4 cost you $230 shipped?

Or is the $230 the shipping cost?
__________________
EzzyD is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 17-01-2013, 13:49   #1166
Registered User
 
diugo's Avatar

Join Date: Dec 2012
Location: Yuma, AZ
Boat: USS Asymptote
Posts: 261
Re: LiFePO4 Batteries: Discussion Thread for Those Using Them as House Banks

Quote:
Originally Posted by NahanniV View Post
Got My Cells from Balquon today.
4*400AHA
$230. shipping to Niagara Falls NY

They seem to be in good physical condition, but clearly used.
The bus bars and hardware which I had to pay for were also previously used. Annoying that the bus bars are not all the same and will require modification to allow the cells to be placed side by side without a gap (too long).

The cells appear to be from 2009.
code is "090906-F02XXX" XXX's are max. 81 apart.

I assume this means September 6th 2009 ?
If so, 39 months old. The oldest ones I've heard of on this thread

Voltages are within 10mV with two pairs identical.

I also got my PowerLog (big brother of the CellLog); What a cool little tool.
Thanks for the detailed info on your Balqon purchase. That's the main reason I'm haunting this thread. Never did hear from MaineSail on the specific age of his set---but judging from his shiny green vent caps, looks like his buddy Balwinder sent him some pretty new ones.

Couple of questions, how much did Balqon charge you for the straps and bolts? Does the PowerLog have two alarm ports instead of one, like the CellLog? Two ports would be nice, that way you could turn off the load bus under LVD and the charge bus under HVD.
__________________
diugo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 17-01-2013, 13:57   #1167
Registered User

Join Date: Dec 2012
Posts: 650
Re: LiFePO4 Batteries: Discussion Thread for Those Using Them as House Banks

Quote:
Originally Posted by EzzyD View Post
Do I understand correctly that all 4 cost you $230 shipped?

Or is the $230 the shipping cost?
I'm sure that was the shipping cost. The clearance price of the 400AH cells is $258 each.
__________________
mcarling is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 17-01-2013, 14:28   #1168
Nearly an old salt
 
goboatingnow's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 13,649
Images: 3
Quote:
Originally Posted by NahanniV
Got My Cells from Balquon today.
4*400AHA
$230. shipping to Niagara Falls NY

They seem to be in good physical condition, but clearly used.
The bus bars and hardware which I had to pay for were also previously used. Annoying that the bus bars are not all the same and will require modification to allow the cells to be placed side by side without a gap (too long).

The cells appear to be from 2009.
code is "090906-F02XXX" XXX's are max. 81 apart.

I assume this means September 6th 2009 ?
If so, 39 months old. The oldest ones I've heard of on this thread

Voltages are within 10mV with two pairs identical.

I also got my PowerLog (big brother of the CellLog); What a cool little tool.
How can a company sell you clearly 2nd hand batteries. There a fair percentage of that batteries life is over

Dave
__________________
Check out my new blog on smart boat technology, networking and gadgets for the connected sailor! - http://smartboats.tumblr.com
goboatingnow is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 17-01-2013, 14:31   #1169
Nearly an old salt
 
goboatingnow's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 13,649
Images: 3
Quote:
Originally Posted by deckofficer

Dave,

I'm learning along with the rest. When I top balanced, it helped but needed more so I bottomed balanced and top balanced on the same parallel cycle. Since my PS can only muster 40 watts at cell voltage level, it takes a long time vs 750 watts the charger puts out at series pack voltage, but that is what it needed (Thanks Maine Sail).

NahanniV, welcome to the club, let the balancing begin and please keep us posted as to how it goes for you.
No what I meant is I don't bother bottom balancing , I merely subjected the bank in parallel to a power supply charging and a small electronic load discharging them. I reckon I drew them down by 20-30 percent and recharged

Dave
__________________
Check out my new blog on smart boat technology, networking and gadgets for the connected sailor! - http://smartboats.tumblr.com
goboatingnow is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 17-01-2013, 14:35   #1170
Marine Service Provider
 
Maine Sail's Avatar

Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Maine
Boat: CS-36T - Cupecoy
Posts: 2,901
Re: LiFePO4 Batteries: Discussion Thread for Those Using Them as House Banks

Quote:
Originally Posted by goboatingnow View Post
How can a company sell you clearly 2nd hand batteries. There a fair percentage of that batteries life is over

Dave
They were not advertised or even sold as brand new cells. They were clearance cells, but are guaranteed to perform as new and carry a new warranty. I am getting ready to test the capacity of mine in the next few days..

"Our clearance items come with full factory warranty. They may be overstock inventory of batteries from previous production stock. Items in clearance may be batteries used during production tests for less than 25 cycles. Please be assured that these items are all the very best of quality and are being offered at great Prices"

$1032.00 for four 400Ah cells Winston + $250.00 shipping... Not bad and I am certainly not complaining that they have a few cycles on them...
__________________

__________________
Marine How To Articles
Maine Sail is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
battery, lifepo4, LiFePO4 Batteries, sailing

Thread Tools
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
LiFePO4 Batteries - Okay Tear Me Apart ;-) jallum Electrical: Batteries, Generators & Solar 395 03-12-2015 13:19
Voltage drop under load, amps read 99% ?? VVD Electrical: Batteries, Generators & Solar 25 28-06-2011 16:25


Our Communities

Our communities encompass many different hobbies and interests, but each one is built on friendly, intelligent membership.

» More about our Communities

Automotive Communities

Our Automotive communities encompass many different makes and models. From U.S. domestics to European Saloons.

» More about our Automotive Communities

Marine Communities

Our Marine websites focus on Cruising and Sailing Vessels, including forums and the largest cruising Wiki project on the web today.

» More about our Marine Communities


Copyright 2002- Social Knowledge, LLC All Rights Reserved.

All times are GMT -7. The time now is 17:17.


Google+
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2016, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Social Knowledge Networks
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2016, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.

ShowCase vBulletin Plugins by Drive Thru Online, Inc.