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06-07-2017, 13:39
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#5881
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Registered User
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Woolwich, Maine
Boat: Mull 42-cold molded NZ 1970
Posts: 512
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Re: LiFePO4 Batteries: Discussion Thread for Those Using Them as House Banks
FWIW, that pic is from a battery fire from several years ago, and was a lithium-cobalt (LiCo) battery, not LiFePO4/LFP. That mfg was ending using LiCo, and was replacing them with LFP, however that system went up in smoke before it could be replaced. Sad story all around.
__________________
Twice around was enough for me...
Now I just help others prep for ocean trips...
www.oceanplanetenergy.com
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
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06-07-2017, 13:40
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#5882
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Marine Service Provider
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Maine
Boat: CS-36T - Cupecoy
Posts: 3,197
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Re: LiFePO4 Batteries: Discussion Thread for Those Using Them as House Banks
Quote:
Originally Posted by Paul L
So is this the first documented LiFePo fire causing a boat loss?
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No because that battery was not LiFePO4, it was Lithium Cobalt Oxide...
LiFePO4 will likely still get the blame however....
Edit: Bruce beat me to it...
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06-07-2017, 13:47
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#5883
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Registered User
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Bellingham
Boat: Outbound 44
Posts: 9,319
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Re: LiFePO4 Batteries: Discussion Thread for Those Using Them as House Banks
Quote:
Originally Posted by OceanPlanet
FWIW, that pic is from a battery fire from several years ago, and was a lithium-cobalt (LiCo) battery, not LiFePO4/LFP. That mfg was ending using LiCo, and was replacing them with LFP, however that system went up in smoke before it could be replaced. Sad story all around.
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Pretty misleading article in Ed's Boat Tips. It clearly implies LiFePo
__________________
Paul
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06-07-2017, 13:50
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#5884
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Registered User
Join Date: Mar 2013
Location: East of the river CT
Boat: Oday Mariner 19 , Four Winns Marquis 16 OB, Kingfisher III
Posts: 657
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Re: LiFePO4 Batteries: Discussion Thread for Those Using Them as House Banks
Quote:
Originally Posted by OceanPlanet
FWIW, that pic is from a battery fire from several years ago, and was a lithium-cobalt (LiCo) battery, not LiFePO4/LFP. That mfg was ending using LiCo, and was replacing them with LFP, however that system went up in smoke before it could be replaced. Sad story all around.
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Thanks Bruce,
I was wondering if it was a new case or an old one. Was actually just about to email Ed and ask.
__________________
mysite: Colinism.com
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06-07-2017, 14:10
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#5885
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cruiser
Join Date: Jan 2017
Boat: Retired from CF
Posts: 13,317
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Re: LiFePO4 Batteries: Discussion Thread for Those Using Them as House Banks
Yes I was actually going to comment on the abuse of too-general "lithium-ion", but then saw Yanmar's dictum that **only** LFP is to be used, so 'ASSumed' there are actually possibilities of thermal runaway.
Which may well be the case even with the deceptive picture.
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06-07-2017, 14:53
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#5886
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Marine Service Provider
Join Date: Aug 2013
Location: New Zealand
Boat: Custom 13m aluminium sloop
Posts: 287
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Re: LiFePO4 Batteries: Discussion Thread for Those Using Them as House Banks
Quote:
Originally Posted by OceanPlanet
FWIW, that pic is from a battery fire from several years ago, and was a lithium-cobalt (LiCo) battery, not LiFePO4/LFP. That mfg was ending using LiCo, and was replacing them with LFP, however that system went up in smoke before it could be replaced. Sad story all around.
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This was a 7S pack, which indeed suggests a chemistry with a higher cell voltage than LFP: 7 x 3.7V = 25.9V.
The connection between that battery photo and the boat fire is purely an assumption. If the photo is several years old, then it does sound like the first LFP marine write-off. What amazes me is that it took that long to happen or get reported.
I personally know of a boat where the battery compartment was radiating heat like an oven and the plywood turned dark in places. Alternator rectifier failure in a "drop-in retrofit" situation. A few more minutes of engine running and... all over. Don't believe for a second that "it can't happen".
It is just a matter of protecting the systems against the unexpected.
__________________
"The case for elimination: the only equipment that never needs maintenance and never breaks down is the one you don't have on board."
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06-07-2017, 18:09
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#5887
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Marine Service Provider
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Eastern Shore, MD
Boat: Camper Nicholson 44 Ketch
Posts: 2,060
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Testing Lithium Titanate..The next great marine chemistry???
Hi all,
Some of you around here for awhile may remember our being one of the first boats to cruise with LIFEPO4, in the 2010-2013 timeframe on our previous boat.
Last year I obtained 5, 24v lithium titanate modules, commonly known as LTO. They were Manufactured by Altairnano. I have begun to test these, and so for they are looking good.
Lto benefits are:
High charge and discharge rates. These modules, 60ah and 50ah, are rated at 6C continuous. Overkill, but charge them as fast as you dare!
High safety specifications, at least as high as lifepo4
Work well in freezing temps
Very high cycle like, in excess of 8000 to 100% DoD. Taking to zero is not great for the cells, but apparently does not kill them. For these modules, 17v would be dead zero soc.
Voltage can be an indicator of charge, unlike lifepo4.
25 year lifespan
Drawbacks are: lower energy density, lower cell voltage, my modules are 10s in config, and cell voltage is 2.3v nominal. I am running them between 25.4v (96% socialism )and 21v (2.5% soc)
Cost, they are way more $ than other chemistries.
The modules I have were engineering samples. They are mil spec in design. If anyone is interested, I can post some photos and further info as the project progresses.
Chris
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07-07-2017, 19:09
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#5888
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Marine Service Provider
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Eastern Shore, MD
Boat: Camper Nicholson 44 Ketch
Posts: 2,060
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Re: LiFePO4 Batteries: Discussion Thread for Those Using Them as House Banks
Wow, did I just kill the cruisers forum post the the most responses ever?
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07-07-2017, 20:05
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#5889
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cruiser
Join Date: Jan 2017
Boat: Retired from CF
Posts: 13,317
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Re: LiFePO4 Batteries: Discussion Thread for Those Using Them as House Banks
Very interesting!
Probably worth starting a new thread, as not germane to the thread title?
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10-07-2017, 08:28
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#5890
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Marine Service Provider
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Eastern Shore, MD
Boat: Camper Nicholson 44 Ketch
Posts: 2,060
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Re: LiFePO4 Batteries: Discussion Thread for Those Using Them as House Banks
Fair enough, I am starting a new thread. Thanks!
Chris
Quote:
Originally Posted by john61ct
Very interesting!
Probably worth starting a new thread, as not germane to the thread title?
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10-07-2017, 09:28
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#5891
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Marine Service Provider
Join Date: Dec 2016
Location: Toronto On Canada
Boat: Bristol 45.5
Posts: 736
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Re: LiFePO4 Batteries: Discussion Thread for Those Using Them as House Banks
Quote:
Originally Posted by Maine Sail
So here I sit on board the boat, on the mooring, with the Honda generator chugging away in my work skiff, which is tied behind the boat. No matter where I placed the Honda generator on the boat, both of my CO alarms go off. IMHO things are a Darwin Award creator for sure..P
So why am I running a portable generator? Why, because one of the BMS cell boards decided, all on its own, that it need to shunt energy from cell#2 100% of the time .
By the time I noticed it, had not been on-board in a few days, cell #2 had become way out of balance with the others. The cell board failure happened when we were not on-board and with the bank sitting at approx 62% SOC...
Here we have a case where a BMS failure actually caused cells to go out of balance, not to stay in balance. Lucky for me I had a spare cell board and I am now sitting here rebalancing a pack that has not needed any balancing in 862 cycles...
So much for trying to get to 1000 cycles without any balancing. The old cell board is being sent out for repair and hopefully I can get an answer as to why it went tits up on me?
On the good side the BMS saved the BMS from itself and also saved my cell.. If I had not yet fully convinced myself that balancing is unnecessary, at the charge voltages I use, I am now... I plan to talk to the designer and see if the BMS's other parameters will be impacted if the resistors are physically removed from the cell boards. I personally have zero need for automated balancing as evidenced by the previous 861 cycles.
To test some theories, I discovered this last Thursday before we were leaving on a four day weekend sail, I decided to simply lower peak charge voltage to 13.7V and set an alarm for the low cell. It worked like a charm, though with less capacity, and we continued to use the out of balance bank without the high cells pushing over 3.55V and triggering HVC due to the imbalance.
If I had to take the LFP off-line the Firefly AGM was sitting on the bench waiting for the coach to play him. Despite the injury, the star player pulled through.
All in all the cell board replacement, and quick regulator re-program of the alt reg, took about 25 minutes. The hard part is now to re-balance the pack on the boat on a mooring. More just tedious than difficult though...
My B&K 60A bench top power supply has been running flat out for 2:10 and the low cell is still only at 3.41V once it gets to 3.55V and 10A the pack will be wired in parallel and charged to 3.6V and 0.0A to 0.1A. Before I leave tonight I will parallel wire it and tomorrow will push it to 3.6V..
I suppose it never hurts to do a manual rebalance it just kills me that it was caused by the very thing we install to try and protect our banks... I am not really surprised by this and accept that it is just one of the prices you pay to be on the bleeding edge...
A new feature on my dream BMS is a manual lock-out for cell balancing so this type of failure mode can't occur..
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Hey Maine Sail sorry to hear about your BMS failure . I am using the same system on my batteries. Did you get a hold of Demetri ? Would be interested to remove my balancing resistors as well . These are the ones on my boards .
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12-07-2017, 14:18
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#5892
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Marine Service Provider
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Maine
Boat: CS-36T - Cupecoy
Posts: 3,197
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Re: LiFePO4 Batteries: Discussion Thread for Those Using Them as House Banks
Quote:
Originally Posted by ColdEh Marine
Hey Maine Sail sorry to hear about your BMS failure . I am using the same system on my batteries. Did you get a hold of Demetri ? Would be interested to remove my balancing resistors as well . These are the ones on my boards .
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Well the cell board is back and Dimitri fully tested it and... it's fine.... I tested it here, multiple times, then right before I stuck it in the box to ship it, I hit it with some compressed air. I meant to test it again, after the air, but never did.
The week before I put the battery back in the boat, it was in my shop, and I was doing quite a bit of metal work for a solar install. I suspect and errant piece of debris landed on the cell board and shorted a path.. I have since tested it all the way up to 180F and as cold as 6F and it is working just fine. Just glad I had a spare.
I will be removing the resistors on the cell board as I have no use for them. I simply don't use the BMS for balancing purposes. A failure of this type can't be protected by the BMS, if you're not there to manually catch it, and it could ruin a bank... Removing the resistors is as easy as snipping the leads or de-soldering it.
For those wondering about Dimitri and his BMS systems, spare parts etc. etc. they are long gone. Even if he had parts he could not sell them anyway. I even approached him about buying the company but by contract he can not sell it or any part of it or parts, spares etc....
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12-07-2017, 14:29
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#5893
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Marine Service Provider
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: La Paz, Mexico
Boat: 1978 Hudson Force 50 Ketch
Posts: 3,920
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Re: LiFePO4 Batteries: Discussion Thread for Those Using Them as House Banks
Quote:
Originally Posted by Maine Sail
A failure of this type can't be protected by the BMS, if you're not there to manually catch it, and it could ruin a bank......
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Bingo....
People think a BMS/battery charger/Alternator Regulator/Solar Controller/relay cut off or any piece of electronics is 100%...but then reality proves that mindset a myth.
I've helped about two dozen cruisers set up LiFePO4 batteries now and I've turned away helping at least an equal number. Why not help people and turn them away...because they are looking for a set-it and forget it technology and don't want to have to understand it or how it works. THAT is a prescription for trouble my friends. Trouble with LiFePO4 batteries or water makers...if you don't understand how the gear on your boat works one day it could bite you.
__________________
Rich Boren
Cruise RO & Schenker Water Makers
Technautics CoolBlue Refrigeration
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15-07-2017, 08:13
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#5894
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Registered User
Join Date: Mar 2014
Location: Anacortes
Boat: previous - Whitby 42 new - Goldenwave 44
Posts: 1,835
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Re: LiFePO4 Batteries: Discussion Thread for Those Using Them as House Banks
After long delays for a variety of reasons, I have installed my 16 100Ah Sinopoly cells and am completing the main battery cable installation for the battery. I have also changed the entire high amp cable system to simplify it and make it easier to manage, along with better switches and fusing.
I plan to install the HousePower BMS which i already have. Thanks foe the info on current issues and the status with Dimitri. It does not give me great confidence. I do plan on defeating the resistors to prevent automatic balancing.
Since there are several (many?) reported installations with no BMS, I have installed my charge and discharge contactors so that it is easy to put the cable terminations together and take the contactors out of the system - basically a terminal post for the battery lead from the main switch, the load bus lead, and the charging bus lead.
Next I am going to go through my regulator settings and set them with limits for charging for my inverter/charger, DC genset alternator, Outback solar regulator, and engine alternator regulator. When in manual mode I will manually monitor and manage the discharge side as well as carefully monitor the charge side. I intend to turn off all charging when I leave the boat and only leave on essential loads.
The contactors really complicated my wiring next to the batteries and I could not make it as "pretty" as I would have liked without them in the extremely small space I had to work with. If I find I don't need the BMS I will remove the contactors and reroute the big cables permanently.
As a side note, I did get in contact with Manzanita to see if there might be a useful BMS for boats. Right now the one that was mentioned does not seem to have the relays necessary to trip contactors. The ones they sell are designed for EV only, and, to work with their proprietary chargers.
I did email back and forth a couple of times with Rich Rudman who seems to be like Dimitri at HousePower. He said he wants to get in to the marine market and asked me to send him the specs for that. I had already sent him a comprehensive list and evidently that wasn't enough or he decided not to pursue it. He did not respond to my last email.
I will report my experiences every once in a while with my battery system. I am pretty psyched and ready to go. Thanks to all the contributors to this thread.
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17-07-2017, 09:37
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#5895
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Marine Service Provider
Join Date: Dec 2016
Location: Toronto On Canada
Boat: Bristol 45.5
Posts: 736
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Re: LiFePO4 Batteries: Discussion Thread for Those Using Them as House Banks
Quote:
Originally Posted by Maine Sail
Well the cell board is back and Dimitri fully tested it and... it's fine.... I tested it here, multiple times, then right before I stuck it in the box to ship it, I hit it with some compressed air. I meant to test it again, after the air, but never did.
The week before I put the battery back in the boat, it was in my shop, and I was doing quite a bit of metal work for a solar install. I suspect and errant piece of debris landed on the cell board and shorted a path.. I have since tested it all the way up to 180F and as cold as 6F and it is working just fine. Just glad I had a spare.
I will be removing the resistors on the cell board as I have no use for them. I simply don't use the BMS for balancing purposes. A failure of this type can't be protected by the BMS, if you're not there to manually catch it, and it could ruin a bank... Removing the resistors is as easy as snipping the leads or de-soldering it.
For those wondering about Dimitri and his BMS systems, spare parts etc. etc. they are long gone. Even if he had parts he could not sell them anyway. I even approached him about buying the company but by contract he can not sell it or any part of it or parts, spares etc....
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Thanks for the update Maine Sail. I will be sure not to do any grinding around my batteries .
I also will be removing the balancing resistors ..........just to be safe .
Regards John.
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