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07-05-2017, 09:35
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#5776
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Registered User
Join Date: Mar 2014
Location: Anacortes
Boat: previous - Whitby 42 new - Goldenwave 44
Posts: 1,835
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Re: LiFePO4 Batteries: Discussion Thread for Those Using Them as House Banks
BTW - on a separate note, I have had many conversations with other boaters and the general thought is they would never consider a boat with lithium battery power, and that is without understanding the difference in basic approach that lithium requires. I think it would make the boat much harder to sell to the wide population and easier to the much smaller set of lithium "ready" potential buyers. I've decided that is OK but it is something that I have put in my decision making and justification.
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07-05-2017, 09:58
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#5777
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Registered User
Join Date: Aug 2003
Boat: Dragonfly 1000 trimaran
Posts: 7,145
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Re: LiFePO4 Batteries: Discussion Thread for Those Using Them as House Banks
I've said it before, boaters are a very traditional group, and it's hard to get a lot of them to change their minds about how to do things.
I know one guy with an Annapolis 44 who is a great sailor, but he really eschews things like GPS, watermakers etc. He really seems to enjoy living in the past.
His wife, not so much.
Sailing back to the PNW from Hawaii, they almost ran out of water.
She was not impressed.
__________________
The question is not, "Who will let me?"
The question is,"Who is going to stop me?"
Ayn Rand
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07-05-2017, 11:00
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#5778
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cruiser
Join Date: Jan 2017
Boat: Retired from CF
Posts: 13,317
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Re: LiFePO4 Batteries: Discussion Thread for Those Using Them as House Banks
Quote:
Originally Posted by exMaggieDrum
Not sure what a SAR is so can't answer that part.
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ThomasOW's open source arduino-based project.
"Smart Alternator Regulator", too generic a name IMO, impossible to google.
"Viking-Star Arduino regulator" works, name of his trawler.
Quote:
Originally Posted by exMaggieDrum
will shut them down manually with an alarm circuit to tell me if voltage gets too high.
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I'm not looking at HV/LV protection just yet.
I'm hoping to be able to find/create something that will disconnect (or divert to the lead bank) based on **current** through the charging buss dropping to a programmable low setpoint.
Opposite logic to a circuit breaker.
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07-05-2017, 11:10
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#5779
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cruiser
Join Date: Jan 2017
Boat: Retired from CF
Posts: 13,317
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Re: LiFePO4 Batteries: Discussion Thread for Those Using Them as House Banks
Quote:
Originally Posted by exMaggieDrum
I wanted to have a main battery remote switch that I can open/close with a separate switch rather than a contactor.
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You know about these?
https://www.bluesea.com/products/cat...ttery_Switches
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07-05-2017, 11:16
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#5780
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Registered User
Join Date: Jan 2015
Location: Victoria BC
Boat: Rafiki 37
Posts: 1,390
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Re: LiFePO4 Batteries: Discussion Thread for Those Using Them as House Banks
Quote:
Originally Posted by thomasow
exMaggieDrum, and others. Ya, this regulator has been available for about 4 years now. I started it because I was unable properly charge my house batteries - and given we depended exclusively on them most of the year that was a problem.
Don't be mislead by the 'Arduino' label: it is only the dev environment I decided to use (simple for folks to install if they are so inclined). Though up until recently is was needed as I only had blank PCBs available. But this winter I went ahead and had a batch professionally assembled. They are available fully assembled, flashed with latest firmware, conformal coated and ready to install. Just hook up the wires, put in some type of case, and set the DIP switches. For many installs that is all that is needed. More advanced configs is done via a USB cable and a serial terminal program on your computer.
Of course if folks wish to do the whole hand-soldering, bootloader flash and firmware compile/install - I do have some blank PCBs hanging around
To your other point: (If I understood it correctly) --> One capability is a feature-in port which is begin used by some LiFeP04 installs to allow an external BMS to signal to the regulator to go into 'float' mode (which can be different things, depending on how the regulator is configed - ref above post). Others are letting the regulator make the transition decisions and using feature_in as a backup in case something goes wrong.
My goal for this design was a reliable, accurate, and flexible alternator regulator. There is more, but not sure how appropriate it is to get into details here... Am happy to answer questions.
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Woa, this looks kind of ideal for me - will pick one up. Thanks!
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07-05-2017, 14:03
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#5781
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Registered User
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: Salish Sea & North
Boat: Monk/McQueen 45' - 1961 Trawler
Posts: 32
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Re: LiFePO4 Batteries: Discussion Thread for Those Using Them as House Banks
Quote:
Originally Posted by john61ct
ThomasOW's open source arduino-based project.
"Smart Alternator Regulator", too generic a name IMO, impossible to google.
"Viking-Star Arduino regulator" works, name of his trawler.
I'm not looking at HV/LV protection just yet.
I'm hoping to be able to find/create something that will disconnect (or divert to the lead bank) based on **current** through the charging buss dropping to a programmable low setpoint.
Opposite logic to a circuit breaker.
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Yes, SVR - am moving away from that as it is already used. Someone suggested VSR - Very Smart Regulator: maybe VSR Alternator Regulator
How to support house loads is one of the bigger challenges in Li based deployments, and one of the major differences precluding the `knowledge’ transfer from EV usage into house battery usage. Our house load underway is typically around 10-15A, however we often will run the washer-dryer while underway, timing the drying cycle to correspond with when the batteries approach high SOC levels. We need a way to support those real-time house loads while also allowing us to arrive at the next anchorage will a high SOC in the battery bank.
A low-SOC ‘float’ voltage/KISS and total charger disconnect have been talked about a lot – the VSR (?) Alternator Regulator can be configured to support either of those approaches. Another option is to actively regulate battery current to 0 amps. This allows the alternator to directly support varying house loads, while preventing additional energy from being pushed into the battery bank.
To you last point, coordination of chargers – you might notice the RJ45 connectors: These are to support a CAN connection, part of which will allow just that – coordination of charging sources. Including assuring all charging sources are working to the same goal (ala, the 0A regulation if so configured). Is an overall Systems approach a few of us are working on. Same connection also supports status out, ala Signal-K, some "NMEA2000-like" messages as well.
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07-05-2017, 20:44
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#5782
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Registered User
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Aboard
Boat: Kelly Peterson 44 Cutter
Posts: 64
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Re: LiFePO4 Batteries: Discussion Thread for Those Using Them as House Banks
Quote:
Originally Posted by thomasow
..we often will run the washer-dryer while underway, timing the drying cycle to correspond with when the batteries approach high SOC levels....
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Hardly a problem I'll ever worry about.
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08-05-2017, 05:11
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#5783
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Registered User
Join Date: Oct 2014
Posts: 303
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Re: LiFePO4 Batteries: Discussion Thread for Those Using Them as House Banks
Quote:
Originally Posted by exMaggieDrum
BTW - on a separate note, I have had many conversations with other boaters and the general thought is they would never consider a boat with lithium battery power, and that is without understanding the difference in basic approach that lithium requires. I think it would make the boat much harder to sell to the wide population and easier to the much smaller set of lithium "ready" potential buyers. I've decided that is OK but it is something that I have put in my decision making and justification.
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I have had this exact problem when trying to sell our last sailboat with a LiFePo bank.
To new of tech for most, and most if not all walked away.
I only started getting serious offers and finally a sale once I removed the bank and replaced with FLA's.
I was able to sell the bank to a dock buddy, but only if I would also install it and provide tech service FOR LIFE!!!
He a very good friend so bank problems are more a social gathering than a TS PITA.
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08-05-2017, 05:20
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#5784
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Registered User
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Woolwich, Maine
Boat: Mull 42-cold molded NZ 1970
Posts: 512
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Re: LiFePO4 Batteries: Discussion Thread for Those Using Them as House Banks
Quote:
Originally Posted by missourisailor
I have had this exact problem when trying to sell our last sailboat with a LiFePo bank.
To new of tech for most, and most if not all walked away.
I only started getting serious offers and finally a sale once I removed the bank and replaced with FLA's.
I was able to sell the bank to a dock buddy, but only if I would also install it and provide tech service FOR LIFE!!!
He a very good friend so bank problems are more a social gathering than a TS PITA.
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Trying to sell a boat with a DIY Li battery is very different than selling one with an established brand-name system. If you were selling a high-performance cat like a Gunboat or Atlantic with heavy Pb batts, it would be worth less than one with proven Li batteries, upgraded alternators, etc.
__________________
Twice around was enough for me...
Now I just help others prep for ocean trips...
www.oceanplanetenergy.com
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
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08-05-2017, 07:32
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#5785
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Registered User
Join Date: Mar 2014
Location: Anacortes
Boat: previous - Whitby 42 new - Goldenwave 44
Posts: 1,835
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Re: LiFePO4 Batteries: Discussion Thread for Those Using Them as House Banks
"missourisailor: have had this exact problem when trying to sell our last sailboat with a LiFePo bank.
To new of tech for most, and most if not all walked away."
This is what I expect based on many conversations. Most say I am nuts to go to lithium. The one universal common denominator is that all of them don't have a clue about lithium on boats.
"OceanPlanet: Trying to sell a boat with a DIY Li battery is very different than selling one with an established brand-name system. If you were selling a high-performance cat like a Gunboat or Atlantic with heavy Pb batts, it would be worth less than one with proven Li batteries, upgraded alternators, etc. "
The people I talk to mostly include these systems as well although I grant you that it would help. Myself, I still reserve my opinion on these systems until I know more about them other than from vendors who sell them, such as you. No offense meant and I don't intend to even try to give an knowledgeable opinion about these systems. There are several different claims as to BMS's built in to the batteries that I don't think would work. These seem to me to be just vendors trying to use the "mystique" of lithium to make a buck. Your systems are far more than that. There just is so many different opinions.
"thomasow: Yes, SVR - am moving away from that as it is already used. Someone suggested VSR - Very Smart Regulator: maybe VSR Alternator Regulator
How to support house loads is one of the bigger challenges in Li based deployments, and one of the major differences precluding the `knowledge’ transfer from EV usage into house battery usage. Our house load underway is typically around 10-15A, however we often will run the washer-dryer while underway, timing the drying cycle to correspond with when the batteries approach high SOC levels. We need a way to support those real-time house loads while also allowing us to arrive at the next anchorage will a high SOC in the battery bank.
A low-SOC ‘float’ voltage/KISS and total charger disconnect have been talked about a lot – the VSR (?) Alternator Regulator can be configured to support either of those approaches. Another option is to actively regulate battery current to 0 amps. This allows the alternator to directly support varying house loads, while preventing additional energy from being pushed into the battery bank.
To you last point, coordination of chargers – you might notice the RJ45 connectors: These are to support a CAN connection, part of which will allow just that – coordination of charging sources. Including assuring all charging sources are working to the same goal (ala, the 0A regulation if so configured). Is an overall Systems approach a few of us are working on. Same connection also supports status out, ala Signal-K, some "NMEA2000-like" messages as well. "
I definitely need to study the Arduino-based SAR/VSR. I quickly scanned it and I didn't see where it would stop the charging device rather than just putting it in to float. I suspect that I just overlooked it though and will go back later. One of the concerns I now have is House Power abandoning their business and products. I already have one and my design is based on that. I have programmed a fair number of times but do not know Arduino at all and don't want to have to learn that and go through the trial and error approach with my batteries. Without seeing a significant number of people of have them installed and giving their opinion on them, I am reluctant to dive in. I have to say I might just go the route of several others and not rely upon a complicated BMS system as a fail-safe. There is no easy answer on this that I know of with strong/reputable proponents on the two extremes.
Right now my "SAR" is to be dual Balmar 614 alternator regulators, an older but reliable programmable inverter/charger, and an Outback solar regulator. I would be absolutely dependent on the reliability of those devices coupled with strict monitoring and control on a manual basis. I think that will work as my mate and I have an ingrained and rigorous approach to battery monitoring even with AGMs. Solar regulation seems to me to be the riskiest of all the three parts as it would be easy to see jumping in the dink to go to shore and leaving the solar on.
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08-05-2017, 10:23
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#5786
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Registered User
Join Date: Aug 2003
Boat: Dragonfly 1000 trimaran
Posts: 7,145
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Re: LiFePO4 Batteries: Discussion Thread for Those Using Them as House Banks
My (previously 320 now 440 watt) solar has been on 24/7 for years. 200 ah LiFePo4/Bluesky 2512Ix.
No problems, ever.
__________________
The question is not, "Who will let me?"
The question is,"Who is going to stop me?"
Ayn Rand
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09-05-2017, 10:50
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#5787
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Registered User
Join Date: Feb 2013
Posts: 363
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Re: LiFePO4 Batteries: Discussion Thread for Those Using Them as House Banks
Since this thread started almost 6 years and 386 pages ago and there have been advancements to these batteries and their systems since then (I think)...
Is there a best place to start reading this thread?
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09-05-2017, 11:18
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#5788
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cruiser
Join Date: Jan 2017
Boat: Retired from CF
Posts: 13,317
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Re: LiFePO4 Batteries: Discussion Thread for Those Using Them as House Banks
Work backwards, take notes and pay attention to usernames.
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09-05-2017, 11:43
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#5789
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Registered User
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: Michigan/Bocas del Toro Panama
Boat: Corbin 39
Posts: 253
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Re: LiFePO4 Batteries: Discussion Thread for Those Using Them as House Banks
Look for mainsail and check out his LiFePo4 page at compass marine.
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10-05-2017, 02:45
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#5790
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Marine Service Provider
Join Date: Aug 2013
Location: New Zealand
Boat: Custom 13m aluminium sloop
Posts: 287
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Re: LiFePO4 Batteries: Discussion Thread for Those Using Them as House Banks
Quote:
Originally Posted by thomasow
You might notice the RJ45 connectors: These are to support a CAN connection, part of which will allow just that – coordination of charging sources. Including assuring all charging sources are working to the same goal (ala, the 0A regulation if so configured). Is an overall Systems approach a few of us are working on. Same connection also supports status out, ala Signal-K, some "NMEA2000-like" messages as well.
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I am not far away from taking my Mk2 BMS module through another hardware iteration... There would be value in having CAN on board and I already have a RJ45 socket.
While chatting up on CAN at 250kbit/s near-continuously is out of the question for a BMS due to the battery drain it would cause, I could still transmit at intervals and immediately put the transceiver back in low-power standby.
It would open direct integration on a NMEA2K bus with battery bank status messages.
Good thoughts about the MPPT converter, I have often kicked this idea around too. Regulators just need to be able to receive a setpoint. That setpoint can be modified at will to obtain the desired result without any further complications.
Finding the time to actually make it happen is the key here.
__________________
"The case for elimination: the only equipment that never needs maintenance and never breaks down is the one you don't have on board."
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