Cruisers Forum
 


Reply
  This discussion is proudly sponsored by:
Please support our sponsors and let them know you heard about their products on Cruisers Forums. Advertise Here
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Rating: Thread Rating: 39 votes, 4.85 average. Display Modes
Old 24-03-2017, 19:20   #5671
Marine Service Provider
 
KASHMIR's Avatar

Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Melbourne OZ
Boat: Phantom 40
Posts: 81
Re: LiFePO4 Batteries: Discussion Thread for Those Using Them as House Banks

Lev, I have no affiliation with HKP apart from Artest dumping on a FB page I manage and regularly getting emails from them. I have never bought from them. I can't help but think you may be over thinking your new lithium setup. You want to claim warranty on a cell you have not even tried?? I have bought 1000's of cells (different manufacturer) and the internal resistance varies by upto 0.05, I have never had a dud. They do take a few cycles to settle down and after 50-100 cycles they rarely need balancing. I would try them out before giving up on them, or if you don't want them I have a mate up your way that would love to take them I am sure, he has been living on 12v 200ah for 2 years and loves them.
__________________
Peter
Lithium Lab P/L
KASHMIR is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 24-03-2017, 20:04   #5672
lev
Registered User

Join Date: Apr 2016
Posts: 23
Re: LiFePO4 Batteries: Discussion Thread for Those Using Them as House Banks

Quote:
Originally Posted by KASHMIR View Post
Lev, I have no affiliation with HKP apart from Artest dumping on a FB page I manage and regularly getting emails from them. I have never bought from them. I can't help but think you may be over thinking your new lithium setup. You want to claim warranty on a cell you have not even tried?? I have bought 1000's of cells (different manufacturer) and the internal resistance varies by upto 0.05, I have never had a dud. They do take a few cycles to settle down and after 50-100 cycles they rarely need balancing. I would try them out before giving up on them, or if you don't want them I have a mate up your way that would love to take them I am sure, he has been living on 12v 200ah for 2 years and loves them.
i have not asked for a replacement but thanks for your words... i have just asked to get an approval of a method of balancing that this artist fellow will not after done clam that somehow it is my fault for the damaged cells... the method i suggested is parallel hook up for 48 hours of all 16 cells and if the cells stay balanced over 10 days once disconnected it would seem they are ok at this point... but he will not reply to this request apart from telling me i am making things up... so clearly i am going to try and balance them! and i very much hope it will be ok... and plan to get started on that this morning since after asking 4 times with no response apart from artists empty rude allegations with nothing what so ever to back any of it up... but the truth is if the cells where correctly matched before they left the factory as i was told many times was done it would mean i have a defective cell... so i am hoping they just lied to me and they balance out fine.

a 0.04 voltage differance would clearly indicate a defective cell if they where well balanced before shipment

this post to largely to give warning if any one wants to deal with hpk battery and artist of what they may very well have to deal with in dealing with this company. i wish i had such a warning.. this is not just bad business but bordering on mental disorder to be kind as far as this artist fellow goes.
lev is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 24-03-2017, 20:10   #5673
Marine Service Provider
 
SV THIRD DAY's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: La Paz, Mexico
Boat: 1978 Hudson Force 50 Ketch
Posts: 3,920
Re: LiFePO4 Batteries: Discussion Thread for Those Using Them as House Banks

Quote:
Originally Posted by lev View Post
this post to largely to give warning if any one wants to deal with hpk battery and artist of what they may very well have to deal with in dealing with this company. i wish i had such a warning.. this is not just bad business but bordering on mental disorder to be kind as far as this artist fellow goes.
Oh these posts are about a lot of things amigo....quite a lot....
__________________
Rich Boren
Cruise RO & Schenker Water Makers
Technautics CoolBlue Refrigeration
SV THIRD DAY is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 24-03-2017, 21:05   #5674
lev
Registered User

Join Date: Apr 2016
Posts: 23
Re: LiFePO4 Batteries: Discussion Thread for Those Using Them as House Banks

Quote:
Originally Posted by KASHMIR View Post
Lev, I have no affiliation with HKP apart from Artest dumping on a FB page I manage and regularly getting emails from them. I have never bought from them. I can't help but think you may be over thinking your new lithium setup. You want to claim warranty on a cell you have not even tried?? I have bought 1000's of cells (different manufacturer) and the internal resistance varies by upto 0.05, I have never had a dud. They do take a few cycles to settle down and after 50-100 cycles they rarely need balancing. I would try them out before giving up on them, or if you don't want them I have a mate up your way that would love to take them I am sure, he has been living on 12v 200ah for 2 years and loves them.
could you please give the address of this Artest dumping on a FB page you speak of?
lev is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 24-03-2017, 21:45   #5675
lev
Registered User

Join Date: Apr 2016
Posts: 23
Re: LiFePO4 Batteries: Discussion Thread for Those Using Them as House Banks

started to ballance hpkbattery cells...

observations so far...

build quality so far,

the cells seem to look ok apart from some blade cuts in the top plate that go through the plastic cover to the aluminum under it. it seems this was done to trim the outside heat shrink cover after heat shrink was done... not clean cuts but messy ones. messy or clean it is sloppy work. this is just on a few cells but does not look good...two of the posts on two different cells have incomplete tapped holes so the supplied bolts will not come close to clamp down of the connectors by about 3-4mm i put in washers for now since i do not have a m8 tap on me to sink the thread. which makes me wonder if in two of 16 cells they can not even tap holes properly i wonder what is going on inside the cells as far as build quality goes? but really impossible to say... the next observation is that the supplied bridge connectors have elongated 12.7mm (1/2) inch holes for 8mm bolts. and this i really do not like, it means i will have to use fender washers to use these bridges somewhat cleanly in the battery pack build or make some proper solid copper connecters myself... i do not like misfit connectors... but all of these issues are not the end of the word and solutions are not complicated but annoying.

bridging and testing so far:

so i bridged the cells with out measuring the first hour of current into the low cell... my voltmeter has a limit of 10a and i did not want to risk blowing the fuse... after the hour i started to measure current... between the 15 cells that seem close to balance i am seeing 0.01a - 0.04a. between those 15 cells and the unbalanced one i am seeing 0.32a... it seems for them to balance this way, it will probably take much more then 48 hours... i guess i will have to put a charge load on the parallel bank to make this happen in a reasonable time... but i will wait and see what the current between the 15 and 1cell is after 24 hours before thinking of doing this. or maybe i will manually charge the one low cells as close as possible to the others then bridge all the cells...? very clearly best case scenario hpkbattery did not send me a balanced set of cells as they assured me they did... and i really hope this is what has happened with the cells and in the end i hope all cells will be ok... time will tell... i will update this post.

artist has stopped emailing me now that i have posted this information. this is not a surprise... my last request was my 4th attempt of feadback and approval or suggestion of balance and testing method and my request yet again to deal with another representative of hpkbattery.com but i will let the forum know if this changes.

and that is all i have to report right now...
lev is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 24-03-2017, 23:30   #5676
lev
Registered User

Join Date: Apr 2016
Posts: 23
Re: LiFePO4 Batteries: Discussion Thread for Those Using Them as House Banks

review of hpkbattery.com continued...

one of the issues with hpkbattery (handpack) is that there has been no way for me to have an answer to the question of if this company is a reseller fronting as a manufacturer or not... since they only have one email address listed and one phone number on any of there sites it is impossible to get around artist (salesmen of hpk battery) to speak to any other person at this company... and any request to speak to another person at this company is refused by artist.

now...

i did get an email from alan quek who is an official distributor of victron energy products in malaysia. he told me via email victron energy uses hpkbattery as one of there suppliers for there products, so i have it in writing. i contacted victron energy via email to ask if this was the case or not... i have received no reply and they have had nearly a week to do so...

now i do not know alan quek apart from a few emails so i really can not say what he told me is true or not... but he is an official distributor for victron so i take what he told me with real consideration. and victron will not reply, if alan quek was correct or not in his statement...

but if this is the case it means two things to me... first, if what i think (as far as i know) is one of the most expensive boutique marine electronics company's around is using hpkbattery for there cells, i think it would be unlikely that hpkbattery is a front but this would not be definitive. second, if victron energy is using hpkbattery cells then this review and information is directly connected to anyone who has or will buy products from victron energy. if it is the case that victron uses cells from hpkbattery as i deeply questioning the integrity of hpk, i must question the integrity and quality of victron products using hpk cells or any other products from them... hpkbattery is clearly to me anyway not some premier cell manufacturer by a long shot...

i did many searches for internal photos of victrons battery packs so i could see with my own eyes if they are using the cells in hpk battery photos... and i could find nothing! if anyone has such information i think it would be good to this post... and if victron is monitoring this forum it would be great to hear if your distributor is correct in his statement that victron energy uses hpkbattery as a supplier... it would help get closer to the question if hpkbattery is just a front or a real manufacturer. if i am reviewing this company it sure would be great to know if they are even a manufacturer of lifepo4 cells or not. as well if victron and hpkbattery are connected, this review of these cells would also be relevant to any victron buyer. all just speculation on limited information at this point.

here is the quote form alan queks email:

"I can get LiFePO 3.2V,150AH from my regular China supplier who supply to Victron. But the delivery time is 4 to 5 weeks."

i asked what other denominations of ah this suppler has and he said only up to 150ah... so i asked for a 100ah spec sheet from this supplier and price

and he sent me this spec sheet on these cells called "HPK60150190AP-100.pdf" from hpkbattery.

i did not buy the cells from alan quek because he wanted $250! usd per 100ah lifepo4 cell and clearly stated in writing there would be zero warranty of any kind!... clearly no one can buy a such an expensive product with zero warranty... it can not even be a consideration... so buying from quek was clearly out of the question in this case... but communication with him was always polite quick and proper... artist from hpkbattery.com told me that i can buy the cells directly from him or from his malaysian distributor, what ever i want... i chose to order the cells directly from hpk because they put in writing 2 year warranty and they where about $35 usd away from half the price of alan quek's quote. but as it looks right now if i need the warranty it does not look like it will be honored... and if some how they do honer there warranty if necessary... i will clearly have to submit myself to artist's constant txt abuse unless i am finally put in contact with anther representative which i think is mandatory, for no one should be forced to put up with what has been going on with this artist fellow.

if any one that can shed some light on any of this, it would be great.
lev is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 25-03-2017, 05:06   #5677
cruiser

Join Date: Jan 2017
Boat: Retired from CF
Posts: 13,317
Re: LiFePO4 Batteries: Discussion Thread for Those Using Them as House Banks

A very well trusted source is as good as a warranty IMO, yes you take a chance either way.

Long expensive shipping costs makes even a good returns policy useless from the US dealing direct with China to save money.

Balancing and breaking in are the customer's job.

With a very technical product, claiming a defect requires the same level of test protocol the supplier uses, hard evidence supplied by solid equipment in the hands of an expert human.


I would not have contacted them at all until I had all my ducks lined up in a row.

People skills are just as important as the tech, and an Asian supplier often won't have those, so the customer needs them even more.
john61ct is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 26-03-2017, 19:06   #5678
lev
Registered User

Join Date: Apr 2016
Posts: 23
Re: LiFePO4 Batteries: Discussion Thread for Those Using Them as House Banks

Quote:
Originally Posted by john61ct View Post
A very well trusted source is as good as a warranty IMO, yes you take a chance either way.

Long expensive shipping costs makes even a good returns policy useless from the US dealing direct with China to save money.

--this may be the case but many people do not live in the usa. i ordered mine shipped to malaysia for example, all the same it is a good point--

Balancing and breaking in are the customer's job.

--ultimately this will always be the case. i was given clear instructions not to balance the cells in writing and just install directly into battery bank from hpkbattery because balancing has been done at the factory. but clearly since i got a set of unbalanced cells this was bad advise that i did not take--


With a very technical product, claiming a defect requires the same level of test protocol the supplier uses, hard evidence supplied by solid equipment in the hands of an expert human.

-- i agree with this... and i inquired as to what is there testing protocol for there cells was so i can match it. the answer i was given was they use there machine to do it...??? and that is all they would say... thus hpkbattery made it impossible for me to do anything but my own testing---


I would not have contacted them at all until I had all my ducks lined up in a row.

--- when set of cells arrives cleary not in the state you where very clearly told they would come in. and you where clearly told not to balance them before installing, i think contact with them before you start playing with them is a very good idea. so in this case i do not agree ---

People skills are just as important as the tech, and an Asian supplier often won't have those, so the customer needs them even more.
thanks for your comment...
lev is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 30-03-2017, 04:30   #5679
Registered User

Join Date: Feb 2015
Posts: 425
Re: LiFePO4 Batteries: Discussion Thread for Those Using Them as House Banks

I need to decide on a BMS. Is there one that is electronically controlled?
What I am looking for is something like tesla. You can set a charge % and it will stop charging at that point. So if the boat is going to be docked for 6 months, I can say, set it at 55% and it will not charge past there, even thou the solar is trying to keep charging it.

If that is not a thing, what is the best BMS for a 4 cell setup that will cut over and undercharge automatically?
sailnow2011 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-04-2017, 08:36   #5680
Registered User

Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Australia Mannum South Australia
Posts: 644
Re: LiFePO4 Batteries: Discussion Thread for Those Using Them as House Banks

Haven't post here for a long time, can't believe this thread is still running. Now at 6 yrs and well over 200 systems and most operate 24/7 in live aboard type situations although these are off grid houses, houseboats and on road RV's where the owner/user is full time dependant on the battery pack.... boondocking I think it's called over there. So much more to know about the longer term use of lithium batteries than meets the eye for those with 2 yrs or less system ownership.
Memory charge and discharge is real but very different to NiCad etc it is more like a cleaning process to get all the charge back into and all out of the cells. Under charging the cells accelerates the problem and over voltage charging simply increases the internal resistance to the stage the cell can not be fully recharged.
A full service is needed every 3 to 3 1/2yrs, this includes cleaning all the oxidisation from the cell terminals and from the link plates, then a good coating of Alminox to slow the oxidisation down so you get another 3 yrs. Then a full charge and balance with the aim for every cell to hold better than 3.55v for 12 hrs, if it doesn't you haven't cleared the memory charge and therefore haven't fully charged the cell.
All the battery packs we have serviced after the 3 yr service have returned 100% capacity when tested, so it appears we did know what we were talking about all those yrs back :lol: Soon the next 3 yr servicing will be due and it will be interesting to see if the capacity is still there now, they have not shown any signs of capacity loss to date so fingers cross.
A tip for those just changing over from lead acid to lithium, forget everything you knew about batteries as it all related to a different chemistry. Don't store them fully charged, work them hard, they are quite capable of delivering all their advertised capacity without damage so don't be afraid to get down below the 20% SOC occasionally.


Sailnow2011, you can use a Victron 700BMV and set the State of Charge (SOC) to what ever point you want and change the relay contact to normally open or normally closed to suit your purpose. For instance, set to normally open and relay to close at 50% and clear relay alarm at 60% so the contact now opens again. Use this to drive one side of a good quality solid state relay with a good sized heatsink and the load side connected across the solar positive cable going to the battery. Keep in mind, the control side is negative and positive as in the same as a battery, but the load side is the more positive goes to the + and the less positive goes to the - This means the solar goes to the + and the battery to the - even though they are both positive cables and run between the solar positive and the battery positive....... yeah, I know, bloody confusing isn't it but just remember that when charging the battery it becomes the load for the solar panel, so the solar is more positive than the battery.


T1 Terry
T1 Terry is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-04-2017, 21:57   #5681
Registered User

Join Date: Jul 2015
Posts: 68
Re: LiFePO4 Batteries: Discussion Thread for Those Using Them as House Banks

Quote:
Originally Posted by T1 Terry View Post
....All the battery packs we have serviced after the 3 yr service have returned 100% capacity when tested, .....

T1 Terry
Terry did you happen to benchmark the initial capacity out of the box before use? I say that as depending on manufacture there is quite a bit of capacity in excess of nominal and which if your only relying on nominal would explain the results your getting?

My own testing of 6+ year old LFP seems to align with testing by others.

There has been a reasonable number of studies done now into Capacity Fade Due to Calendar Age and Use. For instance this one below shows with age and use shrinkage of around 8% in two years and where it falls off quicker after around 18 months. I have seen others that indicate calendar shrinkage alone with no use can be in the order of 2.5% per annum.



International Journal of Advanced Research in Electrical,
Electronics and Instrumentation Engineering
(An ISO 3297: 2007 Certified Organization)
Vol. 3, Issue 12, December 2014
10.15662/ijareeie.2014.0312064
Copyright to IJAREEIE www.ijareeie.com 13532
A Study of Capacity Fade and Life-Cycle
Estimation of LiFePo4 Battery Based On Two
Years Field Data



Cheers
Hoopla is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-04-2017, 00:55   #5682
Registered User

Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Australia Mannum South Australia
Posts: 644
Re: LiFePO4 Batteries: Discussion Thread for Those Using Them as House Banks

The system is capacity tested on install to cover any possible issues that may occur in the future. Hard to argue the lost capacity case if you don't know the capacity was there I the first place.
Calendar age and use loss of 4% per yr or simply age loss at 2.5% per yr eh..... Just goes to show the way they are first condition charged and the charging regime used has a long term effect if the lab boys lost 4% per yr over a 2 yr test yet our systems in full time use for 3.5 yrs haven't suffered any loss at all.
The quality of the cells used also has a very big bearing on the capacity loss over time so there are a lot of variables that can effect the capacity retention, over voltage charging is the single biggest killer, holding the cells at a voltage high enough to cause electrolyte heating is the next biggest killer and all the early type cell balancers certainly fall into that cell killer category by holding the cells at 3.8v for long periods.
Understanding just what the manufacturer is tell you in the specs they supply is still the biggest hurdle, that 4v per cell has some very important criteria attached like the charge rate and acceptance rate, just using that 4v figure as a general safe max is very deceiving and will result in serious cell damage and loss of capacity very quickly.

Of course if the whole memory effect is not cleared when charging and discharging (two different problems) then the capacity could still have been available, just not accessed.

T1 Terry

T1 Terry
T1 Terry is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-04-2017, 21:01   #5683
Registered User

Join Date: Jan 2015
Location: Victoria BC
Boat: Rafiki 37
Posts: 1,390
Re: LiFePO4 Batteries: Discussion Thread for Those Using Them as House Banks

What charger/inverter are you all using?
__________________
www.saildivefish.ca
alctel is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-04-2017, 23:59   #5684
Registered User

Join Date: Jul 2015
Posts: 68
Re: LiFePO4 Batteries: Discussion Thread for Those Using Them as House Banks

Quote:
Originally Posted by T1 Terry View Post
The system is capacity tested on install to cover any possible issues that may occur in the future. Hard to argue the lost capacity case if you don't know the capacity was there I the first place.
Calendar age and use loss of 4% per yr or simply age loss at 2.5% per yr eh..... Just goes to show the way they are first condition charged and the charging regime used has a long term effect if the lab boys lost 4% per yr over a 2 yr test yet our systems in full time use for 3.5 yrs haven't suffered any loss at all.
The quality of the cells used also has a very big bearing on the capacity loss over time so there are a lot of variables that can effect the capacity retention, over voltage charging is the single biggest killer, holding the cells at a voltage high enough to cause electrolyte heating is the next biggest killer and all the early type cell balancers certainly fall into that cell killer category by holding the cells at 3.8v for long periods.
Understanding just what the manufacturer is tell you in the specs they supply is still the biggest hurdle, that 4v per cell has some very important criteria attached like the charge rate and acceptance rate, just using that 4v figure as a general safe max is very deceiving and will result in serious cell damage and loss of capacity very quickly.

Of course if the whole memory effect is not cleared when charging and discharging (two different problems) then the capacity could still have been available, just not accessed.

T1 Terry

T1 Terry
Terry I suspect the Lab Rats use of pretty high discharge rates and charging and discharging far closer to safe voltage extremities compared to the actual use you see plays a significant part in that capacity fade difference.

BTW on average what over capacity compared to nominal at new do you see?
Hoopla is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-04-2017, 03:54   #5685
Registered User

Join Date: Feb 2015
Posts: 425
Re: LiFePO4 Batteries: Discussion Thread for Those Using Them as House Banks

Quote:
Originally Posted by alctel View Post
What charger/inverter are you all using?
Installing A Marine Battery Charger Photo Gallery by Compass Marine How To at pbase.com
sailnow2011 is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
battery, grass, lifepo4, LiFePO4 Batteries, sailing

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Advertise Here


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 02:35.


Google+
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Social Knowledge Networks
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.

ShowCase vBulletin Plugins by Drive Thru Online, Inc.