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Old 18-11-2016, 14:33   #5491
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Re: LiFePO4 Batteries: Discussion Thread for Those Using Them as House Banks

Yeh. I had purchased a House BMS to install. But too late.
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Old 18-11-2016, 23:25   #5492
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Re: LiFePO4 Batteries: Discussion Thread for Those Using Them as House Banks

I have just installed lifepo4 in my bavaria 42.
At the moment the bank consists of 3x 100 AH batteries with internal BMS that takes 150A on each batteries. So in Parallel it will take on 450 A.

I had a 500 AH AGM bank before that I changed out.
The lifepo4 bank uses the same currents as the AGM. So I still use 13.8v for float and 14,4 for bulk charge. I have connected 220v charger (12v 45Amp),115 A alternator and 500w solar.

So I just needed to get rid of my AGM`s and drop the lifepo4 strait in.



Have been using it for a couple of months now, and I am very happy with them.

I am going to get two more 100 AH batteries, and a extra 200A alternator.

The company I used for Batteries is Called Makspower, and is based in Norway.
Hjem - Makspower batteri LiFePO4

But I thinks his web page is only in Norwegian?

-Steini-nor
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Old 19-11-2016, 04:42   #5493
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Re: LiFePO4 Batteries: Discussion Thread for Those Using Them as House Banks

Our AGM house bank recently died - of course just as we were finally setting off on our cruising adventure.

We had already begun our Lifepo research, and knew that's the route we wanted to take. It just happened sooner than expected. I am still learning, and electricity can clearly be tricky. T

I've been reading through this thread, picking up more and more. Perhaps someone can provide some input on my current dilemma/question.
We replaced 240ah/agm with 225 lifepo (3x75ah). We have 4x100w solar panels and a Morningstar mppt 25 solar charger controller. Our alternator is 80a. I have the solar charger controller set to 14.6 to charge and 13.5 float (per battery manufacturers recommendations)

My main question is - is it possible to fill the batteries (to 13.5 in this case) with solar alone? And if so, do I need more solar? We generally average a 10a draw (that is a very generous average - unless we run radar, etc on a passage, in which case we use the engine occasionally to help offset the use). I am rarely seeing the charge go above 13.3 - but am living aboard, so clearly using the fridge, etc while attempting to fully charge...

Again, I am very new to this and appreciate the knowledge I am finding here.
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Old 19-11-2016, 08:11   #5494
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Re: LiFePO4 Batteries: Discussion Thread for Those Using Them as House Banks

I'm sure others will chime in here, but here's my 2 cents for charging.
Reset your your charger down to 13.8 / 13.3 or 13.4 float when you put in the new bank.
14.6 is asking to cook your new cells if you remove your daily load for some reason.

Mainsail says 3.45 volts per cell and I have found the same thing works nicely.
There's no point in going over that number as the cells are full at that voltage.

I have had a LiFePo4 200 aH bank with 440 watts of solar for several years and no problems at all.
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Old 19-11-2016, 16:07   #5495
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Re: LiFePO4 Batteries: Discussion Thread for Those Using Them as House Banks

Quote:
Originally Posted by senormechanico View Post
I'm sure others will chime in here, but here's my 2 cents for charging.
Reset your your charger down to 13.8 / 13.3 or 13.4 float when you put in the new bank.
14.6 is asking to cook your new cells if you remove your daily load for some reason.

Mainsail says 3.45 volts per cell and I have found the same thing works nicely.
There's no point in going over that number as the cells are full at that voltage.

I have had a LiFePo4 200 aH bank with 440 watts of solar for several years and no problems at all.
I agree....
I've set my solar chargers at 13.8v and being a full time liveaboard it's easy for me to keep an eye on the battery state of charge.
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Old 25-11-2016, 05:20   #5496
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Re: LiFePO4 Batteries: Discussion Thread for Those Using Them as House Banks

Low voltage on LiFePO4??

This spring I installed a 24 volt housebank with 8 Sinopoly LiFePO4 cells and one 12 volt with 4 cells. They worked great during my summer sail. My solar cells seemed to much more efficient with these cells than my old golf cart 6 volt batteries. During the summer I installed a charge regulator on the 12 alternator from Mark Grasser and reinstalled an old 100 Amp Balmar alternator on the 12 volt system, because I wanted to use the external regulator. I also installed a solid state low voltage disconnector from Bed Electronics in Latvia with a capacity of 50 Amps. (This is only for the panel and not for any of the big consumers. All was good and it worked very well.
Then i got a poblem with the 12 volt wire from the ignition on my Volvo. I needed it for the field for the new unregulated alternator. It appeared that it lost voltage when the engine was running, so I had to find another one. In the meantime and while we were underway Y took the 12 volt directly from the battery. Of course, i would clear that when we came to port. But in port, we got a severe thunderstorm before we were moored properly, so I forgot about my stealing of 12 volt. Next morning we had to go to Athens and fly back to Copenhagen. 3 days after I suddenly realized my error and called up the marina to get them to disconnect my shunt. So they did. At this time there was no voltage on the batteries.
So my question to this forum is: what can I do when I get down to the boat? Buy new batteries or can I rescue them?
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Old 25-11-2016, 09:06   #5497
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Re: LiFePO4 Batteries: Discussion Thread for Those Using Them as House Banks

FWIW, I have a neighbor who (I don't know how) had one of his 700 aH winston cells go to 2.3 volts, measured with no load.
He charged it up again and it's working just fine in a 24 volt bank.
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Old 25-11-2016, 10:39   #5498
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Re: LiFePO4 Batteries: Discussion Thread for Those Using Them as House Banks

Quote:
Originally Posted by nwn View Post
Low voltage on LiFePO4??
...
At this time there was no voltage on the batteries.
...
There is a vast difference between 2.3V - which simply doesn't matter - and "no voltage". Once a cell goes below 2.0V, there is a point where a polarity inversion occurs, the chemistry falls apart and it becomes very dangerous to recharge afterwards.

You were clearly aware of a number of unresolved technical shortcomings in your installation, which also featured a complete absence of protection, so new lead-acid batteries would probably be quite an adequate answer and represent an upgrade here, don't you think? Even more so if those were just cranking the engine, which would be technically and economically senseless really...
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Old 26-11-2016, 05:30   #5499
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Re: LiFePO4 Batteries: Discussion Thread for Those Using Them as House Banks

Yes, the difference between 2.3 Volts and none is probably huge. I have asked the supplier on what to do about charging when I get down to the boat.
My general update from my old lead batteries was indeed very successful. The 24 Volt bank has worked beautifully and so has the 12 Volt until the described incidence. It is simply one of the best upgrades I have done. I lowered the total Ah from 200 to 100 on each system and did not lack power at any time simply because the LiFePO4 are so efficient comepared to old leads and because I can use them down to 20%.
I think I have check on the installation, but did not have check on memory together with a sailors ability to improvise.
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Old 04-12-2016, 06:16   #5500
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Re: LiFePO4 Batteries: Discussion Thread for Those Using Them as House Banks

I'm in progress to install a LiFePo system and now need to order a BMS. Initially leaning towards a HPBMS I now feel tempted by the not so proven(?) 123 smart BMS (123smartbms programmable BMS chargers). The BT option and the possibility to set your own limits seems valuable, as the integrated energy counter. Is there anybody who has real life marine experience with this BMS?
I hope this question doesn't break any forum rules and I haven't been able to find anyone using it on a boat when searching on Google.
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Old 05-12-2016, 16:30   #5501
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Re: LiFePO4 Batteries: Discussion Thread for Those Using Them as House Banks

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jd1 View Post
Just keep in mind that if your BMS disconnects the LIFePO4 bank and you do not have a regular battery connected, you HAVE to insure the BMS disconnects the alternator field or else you will likely pop the alternator.

Just playing catch up.

Do please read what I wrote.

I did state that the alternator feeds a diode block so there can never be a situation where the alternator is not connected to a battery.

Also the Delco Remy 10SI alternator we have is amazingly bullet proof the main feed lead snapped at the crimp a while ago (engine vibration on a very short cable - now much longer) and nothing blew up.

I was going to upgrade the alternator to a 12SI 140A model but really with 600AH on tap the need to have the batteries sitting at anything like 90/100% charged with these wonderful LIFEP04 batteries is old style LA thinking, something I am well past now.

Also looking at my cell monitors the other day some cell mismatch voltages were in the .001V range truly amazing.

Finally the good old LA 8D Engine start battery CAN BE CONNECTED (using a manual switch) to the house bank in an emergency, it is NOT connected to the LIFEP04 Cells 'normally NOR permanently'.

I have a very simple system that works well for me and see no need for any further complication.
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Old 25-01-2017, 17:13   #5502
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Re: LiFePO4 Batteries: Discussion Thread for Those Using Them as House Banks

Question for the Board on dealing with LFP04 banks when at the dock in storage?trickle charge, a no no. I have Victron Multiplus 3000 set and a custom BMS. Unfortunately, I had these bank on storage mode float for several months prior to learning of the possible damage to the batteries CALB 180 ah 4X4 PS with micro boards on each super cell communicating with the BMS which can separate the bank via a solenoid should a HVC or LVC event occur. Currently my very conservative charging profile is controlled thru assistants that forces absorb voltage charging to float when voltage increases to 13.8/3.50vpc volts, float is set at 13.4/3.35vpc and current at 60 amps.. Currently after reach a full charge (90%) at the force to float point, I turn off charging.
Now the question:
I spoke with a Victron Tech in Maine that recommended setting the float voltage at or below the resting voltage for my bank i.e 13.1 This would result in no "real" charging until battery voltage fell to or below that point at which time the batteries would accept charging until forced to float again. This should keep the SOC of charge low enough to prevent damage to the by trickle charging albeit repeated shallow discharging and recharge well below 100% SOC. If cruising I would set the fLoat back to 13.4.
Thoughts as to this method to automatically prevent damage if not cruising?
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Old 26-01-2017, 03:56   #5503
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Re: LiFePO4 Batteries: Discussion Thread for Those Using Them as House Banks

Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe Parklane View Post
Question for the Board on dealing with LFP04 banks when at the dock in storage?trickle charge, a no no. I have Victron Multiplus 3000 set and a custom BMS. Unfortunately, I had these bank on storage mode float for several months prior to learning of the possible damage to the batteries CALB 180 ah 4X4 PS with micro boards on each super cell communicating with the BMS which can separate the bank via a solenoid should a HVC or LVC event occur. Currently my very conservative charging profile is controlled thru assistants that forces absorb voltage charging to float when voltage increases to 13.8/3.50vpc volts, float is set at 13.4/3.35vpc and current at 60 amps.. Currently after reach a full charge (90%) at the force to float point, I turn off charging.
Now the question:
I spoke with a Victron Tech in Maine that recommended setting the float voltage at or below the resting voltage for my bank i.e 13.1 This would result in no "real" charging until battery voltage fell to or below that point at which time the batteries would accept charging until forced to float again. This should keep the SOC of charge low enough to prevent damage to the by trickle charging albeit repeated shallow discharging and recharge well below 100% SOC. If cruising I would set the fLoat back to 13.4.
Thoughts as to this method to automatically prevent damage if not cruising?
I recently ended a very expensive experiment regarding storage SOC & LFP. The cells were 100Ah CALB SE's. I conducted this test because there was scant data on prismatic cells and storage SOC in terms of real world scenarios.

The test duration wound up being 12 1/2 months (intended to be 12 months but forgot about them) using four 100Ah CALB cells where they were charged to 100% SOC and then left to sit idle. The cells were wired in series, with no connections to a BMS or other parasitic loads. Just bare cells, at 100% SOC, sitting on the bench in my shop.

The low temp recorded over the 12 1/2 months was 46F and the high temp was 87F. This was meant to be a representation of the real wold. Obviously if temps were consistently higher, the scientific data we have shows this, I would have expected to see even more capacity loss. A min/max capture thermometer was used to record the peaks.

The cells, prior to letting them sit idle at 100% SOC for 12 1/2 months, were regularly & extremely consistently testing at 101.2 to 101.3 Ah's of capacity, over the previous six capacity tests, when tested for Ah capacity as a 12V nominal bank. These cells were used as the control or "gold standard" for the Practical Sailor AGM PSOC/sulfation testing.

After 12 1/2 months the cells were discharged to a cut off voltage of 2.9V for the lowest cell (my normal cut off for a capacity test). The Ah's delivered were recorded. They were then fully recharged and capacity tested four more times.

After 12 1/2 months of doing nothing but sitting there, at 100% SOC, the cells had lost -11.6% of their previous rigorously confirmed Ah capacity. Remember this is just sitting there at full charge with no float....

Imagine if you additionally stressed the cells by continually float charging them....

FWIW our LFP house bank is in storage at this moment and sitting at 50% SOC stored in our garage which runs about 40F - 60F during the off season (unless I have the heat on). Those cells are 2009 vintage and have lost nowhere near what the CALB cells lost in just 12 months of storage.

Our house bank is still delivering an Ah capacity well in excess of their rated 400Ah capacity when discharged at 0.075C or 3.75X our normal house discharge rate to 2.9VPC. The cells have never, ever been floated, never ever spent any appreciable time at 100% SOC and never regularly charged above 3.5VPC.

If we continue to tread LiFePo4, like it is lead acid, we are not doing ourselves any favors.

Best course of action for LFP is to charge then discharge and store at 50-60% SOC when not in use.

https://youtu.be/fGBmEh72UlY


These cells have:


--Never been floated, they get charged, then discharged
--Only absorbed to a net 8A > 10A of tail current at 13.8V -14.0V
--Not charged above 14.0V unless for testing purposes (I now have a few other banks for that)
--Max charge rate at approx .3C
--Stored at 50% SOC when not being used or cycled
--Stored in 40-60F +/- temps when not being used or cycled
--Only very rarely exceeded 80F
--Highest voltage they have ever seen was 3.8VPC while top balancing initially.
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Old 26-01-2017, 16:38   #5504
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Re: LiFePO4 Batteries: Discussion Thread for Those Using Them as House Banks

Hopefully the attachments will come through.
First,
Thank you Maine Sail for your response. To follow up, I've included some simple tests I did on capacity. It appears that the original 720 amp capacity is currently only 400 amps. I can still comfortably cruise on 400 amps but want to avoid any additional loss of capacity. I tried cruised up to your area this past summer however a generator failure issue prevented me from making up to Maine, so turned around at Onset. Currently, I am back in New Bern, NC doing boat projects and pondering battery issues with the batteries isolated and at approx. 60% SOC.

Does anyone have thoughts how to avoid 100% soc and float capacity degrading when cruising by setting charging float voltages arbitrarily low? I now have my BMV set to 400 amps capacity for determining the SOC. I can isolate the LFP bank and supply DC house loads by a couple of starting batteries that also act as alternator diode protection in case of an HVC while cruising. I've been fat, dumb and happy cruising the past 4 years on this bank under the assumption that the charging profile setting of my victron multis (13.4v) was below the float damage point, being too low to push any more amps into the bank.
So the question: what is a voltage(if any) that can be set that if the bank reaches 100%SOC and charger controller forced to float would not degrade bank capacity? Assuming this regularly occurs when cruising via alternators.
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Old 26-01-2017, 18:18   #5505
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Re: LiFePO4 Batteries: Discussion Thread for Those Using Them as House Banks

As Maine Sail explained: There is no such thing as a safe "float voltage" for LiFePO. If the bank is fully charged all charging sources should disconnect. A full charge should not be kept for too long, better consume it so SoC remains in the nicer range of about 50 - 70 %.
On our boat we use an electric kettle and an induction cooking plate to make good use of excess energy when SoC is too high. When not using the boat, our LiFePO4 battery bank is discharged to 70 % and then completely isolated.
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