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Old 14-11-2016, 15:39   #5476
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Re: LiFePO4 Batteries: Discussion Thread for Those Using Them as House Banks

I took out 3 group 24 lead batteries and replaced with 400 Ah prismatic in the same space. The smart batteries would only net me 225 AH in the same space at almost double the cost.
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Old 14-11-2016, 16:40   #5477
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Re: LiFePO4 Batteries: Discussion Thread for Those Using Them as House Banks

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If the charger is currently set up as AGM and is not programmable it may work fine as is. There are many different algorithms charger manufacturers use for AGM batteries. If your AGM charging source reaches between 14.4V to 14.6V during charging it will fully charge the lithium battery. If the charger does not charge up to 14.4V during charging it may not top off the battery, depending on what voltage it charges up to will determine how much of a charge it gets. Not reaching 14.4V will not hurt the battery and only limits the amount of capacity you are able to use.

Soooooo
You and your website tout the "Smart Battery" as "Drop In" replacement for flooded and AGM batt's.

Does this mean that I can leave my solar and shore powered chargers connected for an indefinite period of time, without any harm to the batt's?
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Old 14-11-2016, 16:54   #5478
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Re: LiFePO4 Batteries: Discussion Thread for Those Using Them as House Banks

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If the charger is currently set up as AGM and is not programmable it may work fine as is. There are many different algorithms charger manufacturers use for AGM batteries. If your AGM charging source reaches between 14.4V to 14.6V during charging it will fully charge the lithium battery. If the charger does not charge up to 14.4V during charging it may not top off the battery, depending on what voltage it charges up to will determine how much of a charge it gets. Not reaching 14.4V will not hurt the battery and only limits the amount of capacity you are able to use.
Can you tell us the voltage of the "knee" on the charge and discharge sides of these cells? At 14.6 volts or 14.4 volts what is the current at which you will have a 100% charge? What system to you use to "balance" the cells and if you stay out of the knee how much drift is there on individual cells?
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Old 14-11-2016, 16:57   #5479
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Re: LiFePO4 Batteries: Discussion Thread for Those Using Them as House Banks

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Smart Battery offers a line of 12V Lithium Batteries designed as a drop in replacement from Lead Acid, Gel and AGM Batteries that are plug and play for marine applications. In the video link below they provide one of the most important solutions to this thread, Safety. The main issue with all lithium batteries is how to prevent a cell from overheating and rupturing if over charged. Smart Battery has several layers of safety redundancy systems at the cell level. The most noteable safety feature is the internal thermal fuse between the anode and cathode that will shut down the cell before the temperature rises, preventing pressure build up and activating the 1.5Mpa safety vent. If the thermal fuse failed and pressure was released through the safety vent, the electrolyte has a flame retardant additive making the battery safe. These conditions would likely only occur if a charger or controller failed spiking current into the battery. The BPS is designed to protect the cells from this anomaly by opening at 15.8V and would have to fail in the closed state allowing excess current into the cells. The Group 31 - 12V 100AH is built with 80 cylindrical 3.2V 5AH (32650) cells combined with 4 sets of 20 cells in parallel and then combined in series. All 80 cells are matched by measuring 10 consistencies during several charge / discharge cycles at the end of production.

I looking forward to providing more specific details as requested. Here are some useful links-

https://youtu.be/MEe_F9jY-cM

http://www.lithiumion-batteries.com/...sign%20PDF.pdf

Smart Battery protection System

Cylindrical Vs Prismatic Cells
Can't wait till Maine Sail sees this.
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Old 15-11-2016, 07:04   #5480
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Re: LiFePO4 Batteries: Discussion Thread for Those Using Them as House Banks

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Soooooo
You and your website tout the "Smart Battery" as "Drop In" replacement for flooded and AGM batt's.

Does this mean that I can leave my solar and shore powered chargers connected for an indefinite period of time, without any harm to the batt's?
The short answer is yes. Both Shore power chargers and charge controllers have many different algorithms. Most are designed to charge the batteries up to the programmed voltage and then will enter float stage or shut off after a period of time.
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Old 15-11-2016, 07:11   #5481
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Re: LiFePO4 Batteries: Discussion Thread for Those Using Them as House Banks

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Can't wait till Maine Sail sees this.
No kidding...Maine Sail is well aware of "Smart" Battery, as are most of us in the marine battery business. I won't be surprised if he holds his fire; as it's a big can of worms to get into...but you never know...;-)
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Old 15-11-2016, 07:40   #5482
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Re: LiFePO4 Batteries: Discussion Thread for Those Using Them as House Banks

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No kidding...Maine Sail is well aware of "Smart" Battery, as are most of us in the marine battery business. I won't be surprised if he holds his fire; as it's a big can of worms to get into...but you never know...;-)
As I always suggest, with US companies, it's generally a good idea to start your research with the BBB and then continue your research until you are confident they are a legit and a known reputable vendor.

Better Business Bureau



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Old 15-11-2016, 08:09   #5483
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Re: LiFePO4 Batteries: Discussion Thread for Those Using Them as House Banks

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No comment... As I always suggest with US companiesit's generally a good idea to start your research with the BBB.... Better Business Bureau



.
The company has been around since 2011 and has successful sold over 15,000 lithium batteries used as a " Drop in Replacement " from Lead Acid with less than a 1% failure rate. Lithium battery technology is setting record high growth rates around the world and the supply in demand can prove to be a difficult challenge to forecast. There are many companies illegally shipping Lithium Batteries without the proper hazmat labeling that requires them to only be flown on cargo aircraft. Typically the companies that would illegally ship lithium batteries are often shipping low quality potentially dangerous lithium batteries that could be going on passenger aircraft. customs agents are randomly holding shipments containing lithium batteries to verify the proper paperwork is filled and up to date with the latest regulations. As the largest importer of these batteries Smart has seen shipments randomly held by the US Coast Guard for over 4 months. Smart now has Master Distributors located throughout the US and Canada that stock the full line of 12V Lithium Batteries.
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Old 15-11-2016, 09:46   #5484
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Re: LiFePO4 Batteries: Discussion Thread for Those Using Them as House Banks

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The short answer is yes. Both Shore power chargers and charge controllers have many different algorithms. Most are designed to charge the batteries up to the programmed voltage and then will enter float stage or shut off after a period of time.
Yeah..you are not really answering my question.

But don't worry about it.
Most likely, I won't be buying from you as Smart Battery seems to have a product delivery problem.

P.S. I don't know why Customs or the Coast Guard would even be involved in a shipment from Fla to another lower 48 state.
If Smart Battery has had HAZMAT problems with Interstate shipments, then shame on Smart Battery for not following proper procedures.
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Old 15-11-2016, 10:00   #5485
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Re: LiFePO4 Batteries: Discussion Thread for Those Using Them as House Banks

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Yeah..you are not really answering my question.

But don't worry about it.
Most likely, I won't be buying from you as Smart Battery seems to have a product delivery problem.

P.S. I don't know why Customs or the Coast Guard would even be involved in a shipment from Fla to another lower 48 state.
If Smart Battery has had HAZMAT problems with Interstate shipments, then shame on Smart Battery for not following proper procedures.
Smart now has multiple Master Distributors with their full line in stock. Like most Lithium Batteries, Smart manufactures in China and imports to the US. Coast Guard randomly selects shipments for Xray exams when they come into port in Long Beach, CA. The packaging that Smart ships in across the US and around the world exceeds all FAA and DOT regulations. Smart has provided training programs to the FAA regulators on cell types & chemistries and also has similar programs for training battery dealers and distributors on how to properly ship Lithium Batteries. Smart can also certify a person to be approved for shipping hazmat products.
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Old 15-11-2016, 10:10   #5486
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Re: LiFePO4 Batteries: Discussion Thread for Those Using Them as House Banks

This is a prime example of why marketing professionals say NEVER DO BUSINESS on a public forum. Someone will invariably let the cat out of the bag.
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Old 15-11-2016, 14:01   #5487
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Re: LiFePO4 Batteries: Discussion Thread for Those Using Them as House Banks

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Can you tell us the voltage of the "knee" on the charge and discharge sides of these cells? At 14.6 volts or 14.4 volts what is the current at which you will have a 100% charge? What system to you use to "balance" the cells and if you stay out of the knee how much drift is there on individual cells?
Any luck on your techies coming up with these voltages?
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Old 17-11-2016, 17:06   #5488
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Re: LiFePO4 Batteries: Discussion Thread for Those Using Them as House Banks

About destroying my LiFePo batteries.

No nightmare here. I am now back in holiday mode. Well, almost. I have gone to the dark side and installed 16 Trojan T-105's. I was unable to get LiFePo on short notice. So sad.

This is what happened:
- Bought 8 Winston 700Ah cells from Ballon in 2013 at $500 each "slightly used"
- installed as 2P4S, no BMS but HVC and LVC with solenoids. Cell Log to see individual voltages.
- first season all was fine.
- layup 50% charge disconnected
- upon return cell set 2 has dropped in voltage. If I remember right, it was sitting at 2.8 V when I returned after 6 months. Others 3.3V
- next layup season I kept them connected with the solar charging to 13.2V (lowest I can set the charge controller)
- upon return I had to heavily balance (bleed a lot out of sets 1,3 and4)
- during the season I had to manually balance two or three times.
- next layup connected again with solar controller at 13.2
- I asked,someone to check and set 2 was getting low, so I asked the person to balance as per my instructions. I don't know if that ever happened. I may not. I don't want to dig into it.
Result. Upon return solar was charging. Voltages were:
4.1. 0.7 4.2 4.2
Nicely bulged cells. Surprisingly I was able to assemble a reduced set that tied us over for a multi-day 300Nm trip to Florida and several days there. Running fridge, navigation, etc.

One solar set (900W) was still working the other set had one panel ripped out by Matthew. A bolt had unscrewed itself and the wind lifted the edge and ripped the other 3 bolts. The unscrewed bolt was still siting innocently on the deck.
By he way. The solar on my boat is the only thing that truly charges the batteries. The stock alternators never charge the Trojans over 13.2V we had one run of motoring and motor sailing in light winds crossing the stream of 20 hours.
Today is the first day with running full solar. Max output was 80A for several hours. Max V today 14.2. Will get to 14.6 tomorrow if sunny again. Total solar in 550Ah or 7.3kWh
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Old 17-11-2016, 17:39   #5489
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Re: LiFePO4 Batteries: Discussion Thread for Those Using Them as House Banks

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About destroying my LiFePo batteries.

no BMS but HVC and LVC with solenoids.

Cell Log to see individual voltages.

- next layup season I kept them connected with the solar charging to 13.2V (lowest I can set the charge controller)

Upon return solar was charging. Voltages were:

4.1. 0.7 4.2 4.2

Nicely bulged cells.

This is why a pack level HVC or LVC is not the best choice for LFP. The BMS needs the ability to provide HVC or LVC based on cell level voltage not just pack level. Pack level can be okay for early warnings but for protection levels, cell voltages are the safest. You did have cell level voltage data but only visually. When you are not there to see it you can't protect the pack with that data.

4.1V + 0.7V + 4.2V + 4.2V = 13.2V (your solar float setting)

Sure the solar was set at 3.300 volts per cell but when cells became unbalanced or damaged the pack level HVC or LVC could not do its job to protect your cells because all it saw was 13.2V. It could not see the 4.2V or 0.7V cells and stop the charging or discharging.

Thank you for posting this! It really helps others learn about what can actually happen out there. It really is great data for the community to learn from. I wish more folks who have had mishaps with LFP would be more forthcoming so the community would have a better data set to learn from..
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Old 17-11-2016, 17:56   #5490
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Re: LiFePO4 Batteries: Discussion Thread for Those Using Them as House Banks

I agree totally with Maine Sail and being Captain Obvious: if we don't know about the mistakes, nobody can learn from them. Thank you for sharing and helping the education process.
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