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Old 19-09-2012, 00:04   #526
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Re: LiFePO4 Batteries: Discussion Thread for Those Using Them as House Banks

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TERRY.
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I can get these locally WB-LYP400AHA LiFeYPO4 (3.2V/400Ah) and would get 8 of them connecting to give a single unit at 12volt/800 amps for around $4000 AUD Delivered to Croatia, then as per 'Downunders link' i would fit the under voltage unit plus the 'Junsi' logger.

From what i understand i should fit these into a tightish metal box to prevent expansion etc.

Then recognising and isolating circuits will be the important one, one of the things that i found on the Thruster circuit is there is a charge wire running through the port engine start battery so that the Thruster battery in the bow gets some charge, HOWEVER that battery died and the thruster motor took feed from the starter battery and obliterated the 120amp fuse.

Ok the understanding is growing the more that i read i'm looking at wintering here in Croatia instead of Greece/Turkey now as our Aussie registration won't be completed in time so i'll be doing this project with gloves on brrrrrrr!!!!

Cheers Frank
"A simple $28 Junsi cell logger will tell you when you need to do a cell balance, if a cell goes over 3.6v and sets an alarm off while the other cells are still below 3.45v then that cell needs a bit used out of it to reduce it's sate of charge a bit. Otherwise you really don't need to do anything." OK makes sense..Do these connect to each cell via a sensor wire or just overall?

Hi Frank,
The cell looger wires up like this, you need to install fuses in the cell logger wires just in case, here is two possible methods.

"I would like all charging systems via the lead acid batteries to the house batteries, that way a simple solenoid can stop the house battery charging and the lead acid batteries will save any back voltage destroying sensetive electronics" Sorry i'm not quite understanding this bit, are you meaning a solenoid should connect the banks when charging then drop out when not so voltage doesn't bleed from Lithium to Acid banks?
Wish I had a proof reader, that should have read 'link" not like. Basically, if you need to separate each battery bank then a solenoid between each battery and then another between the lead acid batteries and the lithium house batteries. They should all turn on when any of the charging methods are operating or aheavy load is applied to the lead acid batteries so itís shared across them all. I don't know your lay out but it may be possible to use one lead acid battery to power all the starters and thruster, switch the link on and use the house battery as added capacity for the high load stuff.

As I listed above, I'd drop the charge voltage back to gel settings or use a relay from the Lunsi cell logger alarm port to open the solenoid between the lead acid batteries and the lithium house batteries if a cell went over 3.6v, that way any charge setting for lead acid could be used and the lithium batteries would be prtected from over charge yet still have a fast charge rate with the higher lead acid charging voltages. The higher the voltage pushing the current to the house batteries the more that will flow so the higher lead acid charging voltages would have an advantage, just the cells need to be protected from over charge.
Either a tight fitting box or end plates and straps to stop the cells from bulging, here is an idea of what I mean

T1 Terry
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Old 19-09-2012, 00:11   #527
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Re: LiFePO4 Batteries: Discussion Thread for Those Using Them as House Banks

Thanks for that, i'll digest this over my cornies and coffee, this whole Lithium thing is appearing simpler than i thought it may,i guess it's learning the terminology. Ill do a line drawing of my installation for comment sometime today (when finished) . Cheers Frank
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Old 19-09-2012, 05:16   #528
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Re: LiFePO4 Batteries: Discussion Thread for Those Using Them as House Banks

This is what i'm thinking for the battery unit, please check to see if i'm getting the series/parallel thingy correct to give 800amps at 12volts? Cheers Frank
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Old 19-09-2012, 06:07   #529
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Re: LiFePO4 Batteries: Discussion Thread for Those Using Them as House Banks

That would work but this way may be easier and a lexin/perspex lid may be better tha a ply lid, easier to see if there are any signs of loose terminal bolts etc.
The cell logger we use comes from Hobby King Cell-Log Cell Voltage Monitor 2-8S Lipo and the wiring plug is an ebay item eBay Australia: Buy new & used fashion, electronics & home d i would recommend 2 plugs, one mounted at he battery and the other up in the electric consul. If any balancing needs to be done it's easier to have the logger at the battery.

T1 Terry
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Old 19-09-2012, 06:57   #530
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Re: LiFePO4 Batteries: Discussion Thread for Those Using Them as House Banks

It's the same cell logger under a different name....
Ok i can have the logger very close to the battery. The box will be under a bed so not a problem taking lid off.
What are the plugs about? Not sure i'm understanding that one?
The price for the cells is that competitive?
Cheers Frank
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Old 19-09-2012, 16:38   #531
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Re: LiFePO4 Batteries: Discussion Thread for Those Using Them as House Banks

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It's the same cell logger under a different name....
Ok i can have the logger very close to the battery. The box will be under a bed so not a problem taking lid off.
What are the plugs about? Not sure i'm understanding that one?
The price for the cells is that competitive?
Cheers Frank
The cell logger doesn't come with a JST-XH plug, this is the bit tat links the cells to the logger and simply plugs in the left hand side of the logger.
The price of $4,000 for 800Ah @ 12v nom. delivered is $1.25/Ah @ 3.2v, the best I have seen so far, the fact they are being delivered outside China or Winston's distribution arm in the US (Balqon) is quite surprising, I'd be paying COD just to be sure.
If you are mounting them under the bed be sure to provide good forced ventilation during charging just in case a cell goes over voltage and vents it's electrolyte. Not near as dangerous as lead acid but the vapour in the right concentration would still be flammable so plenty of air to disperse it would be a good safety measure.
Do you have some form of Ah measuring like a Victron BMV600 or Xantrax Link Lite or BEP Matrix battery monitor? You need to know when to recharge, simple voltage measurement isnít very accurate in determining state of charge as the chart below shows, these charts are the same for all Winston cells.

T1 Terry
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Old 19-09-2012, 23:33   #532
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Re: LiFePO4 Batteries: Discussion Thread for Those Using Them as House Banks

Thanks Terry i can fit an engine room fan venting out allowing cabin to draught through the space.

The price is from this mob EV-Power | Your Complete Power Solutions, it doesn't include tax or delivery however i believe as a yacht in transit i may not need to pay any VAT.....

Prior to getting serious about Lithium i was going to fit one of these http://www.shop.solar-wind.co.uk/aca...S_Brochure.pdf
1 x Smartguage @ £ 150.65

However i'll look at your suggestions. We are fitting the following at the same time:-
1) 4 x ET Solar panels 195watt each.
2) TriStar Solar controller.
3) Replacing 220volt heater element in HWS with a 12 volt unit.
4) Smartgauge battery monitor.??
5) LE-300 Wind Generator with own controller and dump to HWS.

We have in place and don't intend to change:-
1) 2000watt Waeco invertor.
2) 12v-220v Sea Recovery DeSal.
3) 2 x lead acid start batteries.
4) 1 x lead acid Thruster battery.
5) About 10 amp max of flexible panels with a Morningstar controller and Remote gauge which i'm thinking of devoting to the lead acids if that makes sense as it's almost in that form now. That way the 3 of them will remain topped up. I can always switch to house batts if they were flat BUT i do understand i must get external regulators on the engine alternators to prevent spikes?

Cheers magic help you are giving here, as it moves forward i'll start a separate thread showing blow by blow the power upgrade for the complete project.

Frank
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Old 20-09-2012, 03:52   #533
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Re: LiFePO4 Batteries: Discussion Thread for Those Using Them as House Banks

Hi Guys, have found this link has anyone used or explored this product?
Clayton Power | Power Systems and Solutions
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Old 20-09-2012, 06:17   #534
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Re: LiFePO4 Batteries: Discussion Thread for Those Using Them as House Banks

Had a look it's certainly very commercial units look like TIG Welders all neatly packaged.
Cheers
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Old 20-09-2012, 06:19   #535
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Re: LiFePO4 Batteries: Discussion Thread for Those Using Them as House Banks

TERRY do solar controllers accomodate Lithium batteries correctly as far as charging goes?
Cheers
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Old 20-09-2012, 07:15   #536
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Re: LiFePO4 Batteries: Discussion Thread for Those Using Them as House Banks

to do it right you need a good one with full adjustable ranges for boost, absorption and float. There is a good unit made in Australia by Plasmatronic called a Dingo. It has a shunt kit that can be added so it becomes a battery monitor as well and a computer interface is also available if you are into that sort of stuff.
PLASMATRONICS DINGO 20/20 SOLAR REGULATOR AGM DEEP CYCLE BATTERY CARAVAN 4X4 4WD | eBay I think the shunt kit adds around another $200.
Right at the top of the tree the Outback MX80 is fully adjustable, there are probably others also but finding ones that all 3 stages are adjustable can be difficult.
Generally the Gel battery setting on most controllers will be close enough not to damage lithium batteries but it may not be the fastest charging regime as many drop their float voltage to 13.6v, 13.8v is the best safe float voltage.

T1 Terry
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Old 20-09-2012, 16:00   #537
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I think 13.8 float is too high? That's 3.45 volts per cell which is what I charge to at anchor, and then stop charging. But for a month in a marina? I think 13.4 is a better float voltage. This is probably about 85-90% SOC. It's my personal compromise to the manufacturers storage charge practice of using 50% SOC, a huge lack of good data on what "float" should be for LiFePO4, and an intent to remain in the 20-90% SOC window which may extend the cycle life. Does it matter? I'm not sure, but it won't hurt other than the capacity I sacrifice, which isn't needed anyway.

I've found the AGM setting works pretty well set for no absorption phase (if your charger has that). The voltage drop across the inverter/charger cables at 100A 14.4V works out to 3.45 to 3.5V per cell measured at the battery, then it switches to 13.4 float. This voltage makes it to the battery since the current flow is very small.

You might use a higher charge number for solar and/or wind, but that's different since you will discharge some every day. The AGM trick probably won't work as well here with lower charging current, so the gel setting is probably better if you can't customize it.

On shore power and alternator charge, I'm combining AGM start batteries and Lithium. They happen to float at the same value. It's not perfect...no absorption phase for the AGM. And the float voltage here in the tropics is a bit high since I removed the temp sensor from the charger, but I'm hoping it evens out. At anchor, they are not generally combined at all because of the parasitic discharge to the Lithium. Every week or two, when I think about it, I do combine them when charging with the genset for a single charge cycle to keep them topped off.

Bob
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Old 20-09-2012, 16:16   #538
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Re: LiFePO4 Batteries: Discussion Thread for Those Using Them as House Banks

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TERRY do solar controllers accomodate Lithium batteries correctly as far as charging goes?
Cheers
Check out the Vitron solar controllers. I expect they could be programmed for lithium.

Their inverter/chargers are.
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Old 20-09-2012, 16:18   #539
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Thanks Terry i can fit an engine room fan venting out allowing cabin to draught through the space.

5) LE-300 Wind Generator with own controller and dump to lat BUT i do understand i must get external regulators on the engine alternators to prevent spikes?

Frank
I don't see spikes as an issue.

My alternators have a adjustment pot on the built in regulator I set to 13.4V when the battery bank was fully charged. It's not perfect because it charges very slowly if the lithium batteries have more than 50% charge. Works for me since I'm a powerboat and primarily charge off the genset with 110V battery chargers.

If you either can't keep the charging voltage below 13.8V when the lithiums are fully charged and/or want to maximize the potential of the alternators you will probably need an external regulator. But be careful, I've read about some failures of wimpy stock alternators failing with external regulators demanding full current for long periods. They basically overheat and self destruct.
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Old 20-09-2012, 16:43   #540
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Re: LiFePO4 Batteries: Discussion Thread for Those Using Them as House Banks

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I don't see spikes as an issue.

My alternators have a adjustment pot on the built in regulator I set to 13.4V when the battery bank was fully charged. It's not perfect because it charges very slowly if the lithium batteries have more than 50% charge. Works for me since I'm a powerboat and primarily charge off the genset with 110V battery chargers.

If you either can't keep the charging voltage below 13.8V when the lithiums are fully charged and/or want to maximize the potential of the alternators you will probably need an external regulator. But be careful, I've read about some failures of wimpy stock alternators failing with external regulators demanding full current for long periods. They basically overheat and self destruct.
I agree, lithium batteries can be very hard on alternators and DC to DC chargers that aren't designed for continuous 100% output as these battery will accept all they can get till they are full, no charge tapering caused by terminal voltage rise like lead acid batteries. I had to fit a second fan to my 40 amp mains battery charger to keep it cool so keep it in mind, over heating of charging equipment can be a problem.

T1 Terry
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