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Old 13-04-2016, 20:39   #5086
lev
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Re: LiFePO4 Batteries: Discussion Thread for Those Using Them as House Banks

looks like i need to do a repost... so i have done so with explination and introduction.


who am i-ish as a sailor? i am a solo sailer riding on a passport40 making passage for the last 9 years... i burn on average about 30l of fuel per year because i get lazy some times. my best year was 12l and i am nearly constantly moving for 10 months out of the year. when my motor goes i will gust dump it and with glee say goodbye to such nonsense. i am the 1 in 100 if not 1 in a 1000 cruisers out there that sail in and out of nearly every anchorage be it full of coral heads, other boats or what ever. be it dropping the hook, catching a morring or docking... i usually have a very strong dedication to not burning fuel that is laced with the blood of war. i have 570w of very good solar panels that put out a max of 740w on the best of days, best of places. and with that power alone i run a water-maker, a fridge, lights, all electronics and do 90 percent of my cooking by electric! and i love to cook and bake and do not limit my cooking. why not use more natural gas and not worry about it? because there is no fossil fuel out there that is more environmentally damaging then natural gas. burning is clean-ish, the problem is in the harvesting of the fuel if you are not aware. the number of times i have run my my motor to charge my bank can be counted on two hands... i have learned over the years it is not how much power you have access to that is most important... it is the very thoughtful and creative use of that power that really matters. why is all this relevant to this forum? because a large topic of this forum is about needed capacities of battery banks. and what i have said in my introduction may make people think that there may be other angles to consider. i would never have thought when i installed my new panels 8 years ago that i would be running the boat and cooking 90 percent of my food by way of the power they alone produce. i would have thought it a silly uneducated idea.

to the point of reposting...

my last post is an important question for myself and i think the forum. i say this because this manufacturer has what seems to be the best price out there for the consumer and they seem very willing to work with you to get there product. there price for lifepo4 is .90 per amp. and they are willing to find ways to ship to places no other manufacturer would even consider. i talked to all the cell manufacturer listed on this website (i think), manufacturers not suppliers i am not willing to pay the middle man, and non of them where willing to even consider shipping to any-ware that was not on there short list. for me that meant 800nm away on a different Continent if you can call where i am a continent which i do not think you can... there shipping costs are vastly more reasonable then any other quote i got and this company will ship to where i need them to be shipped for that price.

so i am reposting in hope that i can get some kind of response.. if these fellows are a good company with a quality product a lot of people on this forum can potentially benefit from this information.

so if anyone out there has any connections to find out anything about benergy i think it would be worth the time spent looking into it.

so here is my repost...

i am about to order a set of 8 160amp lifepo4 cells from benergy (benergy tech out of hong kong). i am looking to order them directly from benergy. dealing with benergy so far on line has been great compared to many other manufactures i have been trying to deal with.
i am not finding a great deal of online information about this company and want to check and see if anyone has heard anything about them, cell quality and if i can generally take this company at its word...

anyone with a heads up on this would be great... if i end up making the order i will inform this forum about what happens...

thanks
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Old 14-04-2016, 08:18   #5087
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Re: LiFePO4 Batteries: Discussion Thread for Those Using Them as House Banks

Lev, I have only been researching this for a couple of months but, as you noted, Benergy has not come up on this thread before. For what it's worth, their website looks somewhat credible but lacks any specifics - no customer applications, no detail on the management team, generic photos and artwork, etc. Their product list is extensive but doesn't quite match up with their offerings - for example the 180AH cell is featured prominently on their website but their is no sign of the 160AH cell, until you read the detailed list of product numbers where you find the 160 but not the 180.

The company claims to have been exporting batteries since 2010 but these claims all originate with the company - I can find no independent financial information or history on the company.

Scam advisor says to use caution (Scamadviser.com | check a website for risk | check if fraudulent | website trust reviews |check website is fake or a scam) and notes that everything about the site is free - the domain name, all of the email contact points, etc. Their website describes them as being based in Hong Kong but Companiess.com, another free site, posts their self description as all mainland based.

Without an independent referral or reference it's too risky for my tastes but, as always, YMMV.

- Art
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Old 14-04-2016, 09:07   #5088
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Re: LiFePO4 Batteries: Discussion Thread for Those Using Them as House Banks

Lev,
Thanks for your post. Good on ya for your sailing and not motoring habits. Great inspiration!!

I had not heard of Benergy before. I googled them and found their website but nothing more. I will send them a note and see what they say. $.90/Ah is certainly an attractive price.

Joe
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Old 14-04-2016, 10:29   #5089
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Re: LiFePO4 Batteries: Discussion Thread for Those Using Them as House Banks

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l i talked to all the cell manufacturer listed on this website (i think), manufacturers not suppliers i am not willing to pay the middle man, and non of them where willing to even consider shipping to any-ware that was not on there short list.
The only way to no if Asian company is for real is to pay them an actual visit.

Checking out their facilities, to see if their products live up to the claims of their website is what a middle man does.

With all the time and effort one puts into building a do it yourself system how important is the best price/watt?
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Old 14-04-2016, 12:11   #5090
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Re: LiFePO4 Batteries: Discussion Thread for Those Using Them as House Banks

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The only way to no if Asian company is for real is to pay them an actual visit.

Checking out their facilities, to see if their products live up to the claims of their website is what a middle man does.

With all the time and effort one puts into building a do it yourself system how important is the best price/watt?
I agree with you 100%. I have contacted the few manufacturers that people on here have notable experience with. I have been very reluctant to really consider sellers otherwise. Your comment on middlemen is right on - it is valuable. However, I have noted a wide variation in the "quality and reliability" of middlemen in the US. The lowest cost is definitely not my highest criteria. At the moment just finding availability through any middlemen of the makes I want is a problem.
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Old 14-04-2016, 18:19   #5091
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Re: LiFePO4 Batteries: Discussion Thread for Those Using Them as House Banks

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Originally Posted by exMaggieDrum View Post
I agree with you 100%. I have contacted the few manufacturers that people on here have notable experience with. I have been very reluctant to really consider sellers otherwise. Your comment on middlemen is right on - it is valuable. However, I have noted a wide variation in the "quality and reliability" of middlemen in the US. The lowest cost is definitely not my highest criteria. At the moment just finding availability through any middlemen of the makes I want is a problem.
what is the difference between ordering from a middle man you have not met and ordering direct from a company you have not visited? i would say you have a higher probability being taken for a ride by a middle man... now you must verify both the company making the product and the quality of there product and the integrity of the middle man. once you verify a company, if they will sell directly to you, a middle man is nothing but a liability. unless a middle man can get the product to your door cheaper than you can, or they can take care of very difficult import issues that you can not handle, they clearly serve no purpose... that is how i see it anyway...

that said, i am very happy to be getting some replies so thanks!
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Old 14-04-2016, 18:29   #5092
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Re: LiFePO4 Batteries: Discussion Thread for Those Using Them as House Banks

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Originally Posted by exMaggieDrum View Post
Lev,
Thanks for your post. Good on ya for your sailing and not motoring habits. Great inspiration!!

I had not heard of Benergy before. I googled them and found their website but nothing more. I will send them a note and see what they say. $.90/Ah is certainly an attractive price.

Joe

wow this help is quite great, thanks joe... if i or we (myself and others on this forum) can find out if they are for real they could become an important supplier. or maybe someone to avoid what ever the case valuable information.
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Old 14-04-2016, 18:49   #5093
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Re: LiFePO4 Batteries: Discussion Thread for Those Using Them as House Banks

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Originally Posted by Anjin View Post
Lev, I have only been researching this for a couple of months but, as you noted, Benergy has not come up on this thread before. For what it's worth, their website looks somewhat credible but lacks any specifics - no customer applications, no detail on the management team, generic photos and artwork, etc. Their product list is extensive but doesn't quite match up with their offerings - for example the 180AH cell is featured prominently on their website but their is no sign of the 160AH cell, until you read the detailed list of product numbers where you find the 160 but not the 180.

The company claims to have been exporting batteries since 2010 but these claims all originate with the company - I can find no independent financial information or history on the company.

Scam advisor says to use caution (Scamadviser.com | check a website for risk | check if fraudulent | website trust reviews |check website is fake or a scam) and notes that everything about the site is free - the domain name, all of the email contact points, etc. Their website describes them as being based in Hong Kong but Companiess.com, another free site, posts their self description as all mainland based.

Without an independent referral or reference it's too risky for my tastes but, as always, YMMV.

- Art
thanks art, yes these are some of the reasons why i have not ordered the cells... not one external referance to this company apart from alibaba.com and i have no idea about the integrity of alibaba.com so this one hit does not help me.
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Old 14-04-2016, 19:30   #5094
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Re: LiFePO4 Batteries: Discussion Thread for Those Using Them as House Banks

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Originally Posted by lev View Post
what is the difference between ordering from a middle man you have not met and ordering direct from a company you have not visited? i would say you have a higher probability being taken for a ride by a middle man... now you must verify both the company making the product and the quality of there product and the integrity of the middle man. once you verify a company, if they will sell directly to you, a middle man is nothing but a liability. unless a middle man can get the product to your door cheaper than you can, or they can take care of very difficult import issues that you can not handle, they clearly serve no purpose... that is how i see it anyway...

that said, i am very happy to be getting some replies so thanks!
The business model that around 98% of manufacturers follow is to build the product, (what they do best) and sell in large quantities to middlemen who market and distribute (what they do best). There are always exceptions to this general rule of how things are done. Generally though if I want to buy a Ford, I have to go to a Ford dealer. You can have someone build you a one off car, but for the best price on a new car you deal with dealer. Yes you can buy a Tesla from the factory.

Is Benergy the Tesla of LiFePO4 batteries? Maybe they are, but I think you are doing yourself a disservice by only considering battery manufacturers that sell direct. I mean you no disrespect, this forum is about the exchange of experience and ideas.

I'm sure that there are plenty of people out there contemplating where to buy there batteries that can't wait to hear your results.
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Old 15-04-2016, 04:53   #5095
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Re: LiFePO4 Batteries: Discussion Thread for Those Using Them as House Banks

Benergy.

ok i am making progress... i have gotten a CERTIFICATE OF CONFORMITY for CE certification from benergy. i have requested authentication of the certificate from the certifying company, sending them a copy... benergy it seems, is trying there best to supply me with what ever they can to make me comfortable...

i must say if a big battery manufacturer is willing to jump threw hoops for a little monkey like me to get me there product and they are solid, i am impressed... my contact there has told me he is working on some actual references to send me as well that i can check into ...

i will keep all informed...

many thanks to those who have been trying to help me find out about this company.

one note... a sailor has sent benergy an email asking about there batteries... this sailor said he heard of them from a forum from some one who had bought there batteries or something like that... i suspect it may be someone in this forum looking for information or just a forum that is not this one that i did not find via search... if the email came from this forum i suggest telling facts and facts only... because i am the only one who has posted on this forum about benergy i think... and i never said that i have any of there cells... so what i am saying is if we are going to check out this company to see if they are cool we need to give them the same cool we are looking for and that means only total honesty... you can not expect to lie to a company and in return get truth... not a good way. but if... IF, this is what has happened, thanks for trying to help but i suggest you just change your tactics a little and give them the same as we want from them... honesty and integrity.

many thanks...
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Old 15-04-2016, 07:08   #5096
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Re: LiFePO4 Batteries: Discussion Thread for Those Using Them as House Banks

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Originally Posted by toddedger View Post
The business model that around 98% of manufacturers follow is to build the product, (what they do best) and sell in large quantities to middlemen who market and distribute (what they do best). There are always exceptions to this general rule of how things are done. Generally though if I want to buy a Ford, I have to go to a Ford dealer. You can have someone build you a one off car, but for the best price on a new car you deal with dealer. Yes you can buy a Tesla from the factory.

Is Benergy the Tesla of LiFePO4 batteries? Maybe they are, but I think you are doing yourself a disservice by only considering battery manufacturers that sell direct. I mean you no disrespect, this forum is about the exchange of experience and ideas.

I'm sure that there are plenty of people out there contemplating where to buy there batteries that can't wait to hear your results.
i do not agree with most of your view on this... but i dig how you wrote it! no joke. thanks for your words
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Old 15-04-2016, 08:51   #5097
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Re: LiFePO4 Batteries: Discussion Thread for Those Using Them as House Banks

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Originally Posted by lev View Post
Benergy.
many thanks to those who have been trying to help me find out about this company.

one note... a sailor has sent benergy an email asking about there batteries... this sailor said he heard of them from a forum from some one who had bought there batteries or something like that... i suspect it may be someone in this forum looking for information or just a forum that is not this one that i did not find via search... if the email came from this forum i suggest telling facts and facts only... because i am the only one who has posted on this forum about benergy i think... and i never said that i have any of there cells... so what i am saying is if we are going to check out this company to see if they are cool we need to give them the same cool we are looking for and that means only total honesty... you can not expect to lie to a company and in return get truth... not a good way. but if... IF, this is what has happened, thanks for trying to help but i suggest you just change your tactics a little and give them the same as we want from them... honesty and integrity.

many thanks...
Lev,
Thanks for passing on the additional info. I did sent a note to Benergy (Kevin). I just got a nice reply from them indicating their willingness to custom configure any package of cells that I need and to help in sizing the cells. Very good service. I did mention that someone on a forum had mentioned them. They are asking which forum and I will tell them about CF. I will also mention they need to follow the rules for vendors should they post on here.

I take exception to any implication that I was less than honest with them. If I said something that led them to believe you had purchased cells from them that was not my intention. I don't see how I could benefit from doing so in any case. Your comments implying that are gratuitous and not necessary. Honesty and integrity are important.

Re: middlemen - They are much easier for me to vet/check out when they are local to my country. I know that what I purchase for them is inclusive of import and duties. For the ones I am working with so far I have references on them as to the good or bad. I have not been able to get that about anyone (to date) who has purchased direct from the factory. I had a personal bad experience (an extra $1000 in duties and fees) with a shipper in NZ who guaranteed that what I paid them was inclusive to my door. Once the goods are shipped (and they will only ship with full payment to the shipper) I am at the mercy of the intermediaries, as I found out.

All things considered I would greatly prefer buying from a middleman from inventory and not from a manufacturer half way around the world. But you are correct, they need to be vetted just like anyone else. But I can pay with my credit card and have recourse through that for non-delivery with a middleman. Much more difficult with someone in China. The middlemen I am trying to purchase from (no stock unfortunately) have several good references from other cruisers on here and elsewhere. And the prices have been the same or better.

Benergy looks promising though.
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Old 15-04-2016, 14:02   #5098
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Re: LiFePO4 Batteries: Discussion Thread for Those Using Them as House Banks

Quote:
Originally Posted by lev View Post
Benergy.

ok i am making progress... i have gotten a CERTIFICATE OF CONFORMITY for CE certification from benergy. i have requested authentication of the certificate from the certifying company, sending them a copy... benergy it seems, is trying there best to supply me with what ever they can to make me comfortable...



one note... a sailor has sent benergy an email asking about there batteries... this sailor said he heard of them from a forum from some one who had bought there batteries or something like that... i suspect it may be someone in this forum looking for information or just a forum that is not this one that i did not find via search... if the email came from this forum i suggest telling facts and facts only... because i am the only one who has posted on this forum about benergy i think... and i never said that i have any of there cells... so what i am saying is if we are going to check out this company to see if they are cool we need to give them the same cool we are looking for and that means only total honesty... you can not expect to lie to a company and in return get truth... not a good way. but if... IF, this is what has happened, thanks for trying to help but i suggest you just change your tactics a little and give them the same as we want from them... honesty and integrity.

many thanks...
I suggest that your take on this is formed by information provided by the company and their communication may or may not be completely accurate as information flows through translations and peoples possible paraphrasing. My wife often hears something other than what I think I said.....
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Old 15-04-2016, 18:30   #5099
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Re: LiFePO4 Batteries: Discussion Thread for Those Using Them as House Banks

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I suggest that your take on this is formed by information provided by the company and their communication may or may not be completely accurate as information flows through translations and peoples possible paraphrasing. My wife often hears something other than what I think I said.....
thats a good one... the problem is that the information came to me via a little cut out from a screen shot from a small part of the message... and the text is as clear as the script you see here... i thought i should keep it even more in the ether because i do not want to be passing around other peoples emails when not nessesary to make a point. i think the fellow i am talking to was trying to respect the confedenc of another potential client by not sending me his whole email, just a small section... his reason for doing so was that i wanted some references and i think he was happy to see that another sailor is using his cells!

hmmm... makes me think that maybe reconsidering your wifes interpretations of what she hears could be of value... no disrespect to you and i think clearly respectful of your wife.

the point of all of this from my view is to develop a good relationship with this forum and this company if possible so we can all benifit from it... nothing more, nothing less. and i take such tasks quite seriosly... it is a little thing... but considering the state of general human interaction in this world. i have no choice but to give the little things great value. and i hope i show i am taking care to do so...
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Old 15-04-2016, 20:18   #5100
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Re: LiFePO4 Batteries: Discussion Thread for Those Using Them as House Banks

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Originally Posted by exMaggieDrum View Post
Lev,
Thanks for passing on the additional info. I did sent a note to Benergy (Kevin). I just got a nice reply from them indicating their willingness to custom configure any package of cells that I need and to help in sizing the cells. Very good service. I did mention that someone on a forum had mentioned them. They are asking which forum and I will tell them about CF. I will also mention they need to follow the rules for vendors should they post on here.

I take exception to any implication that I was less than honest with them. If I said something that led them to believe you had purchased cells from them that was not my intention. I don't see how I could benefit from doing so in any case. Your comments implying that are gratuitous and not necessary. Honesty and integrity are important.

Re: middlemen - They are much easier for me to vet/check out when they are local to my country. I know that what I purchase for them is inclusive of import and duties. For the ones I am working with so far I have references on them as to the good or bad. I have not been able to get that about anyone (to date) who has purchased direct from the factory. I had a personal bad experience (an extra $1000 in duties and fees) with a shipper in NZ who guaranteed that what I paid them was inclusive to my door. Once the goods are shipped (and they will only ship with full payment to the shipper) I am at the mercy of the intermediaries, as I found out.

All things considered I would greatly prefer buying from a middleman from inventory and not from a manufacturer half way around the world. But you are correct, they need to be vetted just like anyone else. But I can pay with my credit card and have recourse through that for non-delivery with a middleman. Much more difficult with someone in China. The middlemen I am trying to purchase from (no stock unfortunately) have several good references from other cruisers on here and elsewhere. And the prices have been the same or better.

Benergy looks promising though.
thanks for you input and sharing this... yes kevin is quite helpful... many of your points taken and your effort and sharing appreciated very much.


the txt below this is a general statement not directed at an individual but the forum...

i am not in the usa, i am in malaysia and i see no point to dealing with a middle man in the usa. i see no point to supporting the economy of the usa or australia or nz or uk which would be the usual places to look for products as english speaking consumer.

this middle man thing seems to be coming up more than any other point from the responses... so i think i should really address it with a few alternative realities.

i do not want to deal with any other third party country. as an international sailor. it is often the case that what you need has no local dealer... and with lifepo4 batteries it becomes even more complicated because they are so heavy and have shipping restrictions... i have always found that if possible, if the manufacture can be delt with direct, the results are quite good if you do so with care.

it also seems from reading this forum that, at this moment anyway, many of the dealers do not have and in some cased do not even know when they can get you what you want. if the manufacture has the batteries they have the batteries and can ship them now... if they do not they usually can give you a pretty good picture of when a production run of those cells in particular will be made and available for shipment. or have many options for alternatives.

i am also picking up the batteries at a duty free and tax free port! labuan...and if i order the batteries from say usa, i may not pay usa tax but it is a good chance from my experience that i will pay usa duty! and by god i do not want to do that for more reasons than money leaving my pocket. if labuan was not duty free i would be paying two levels of duty... i also would be paying for shipping to usa then shipping to malaysia in most cases... now that goes for all products not just lifepo4... so when you buy a product from a third party country you are paying a middle man, often duty of that middle country as well as the shipping costs not only to you but to the country of the middle man! not to mention responsibility for the un-necessary burning of fossil fuels and the loss of sea life from the ships doing the shipping or contamination of the air we breath from the air planes or trucks for nothing... price is not the most important thing to me. there are many issues to consider... but still price is a big consideration as it is for most people...

now there are exceptions to everything... and yes there are times when my points do not apply... but i think most of my points can be applied in most cases... from my experience anyway... if you do not agree that is cool, everyone has there own understanding.

if i was in the usa as many of you are, i would still see if i can order directly. especially from a company that gives a two year warranty to there costumers and seems very willing and helpful towards there costumers no matter how small the order...

you may wonder why am i so hopeful of this Benergy company? i am this way because compared to all my other interactions with lifepo4 manufacturers, benergy so far anyway, has been clearly more helpful and easy to deal with, along with very competitive prices then any other company i talk to... hands down.... my search to get lifepo4 batteries to malaysia has not been a easy one. it actually has been terribly frustrating and disappointing and taken countless hours of my time... as is often the case when trying to get supplies when world cruising... so to find a manufacturer that will ship direct to what seems as any port is no small thing considering all of us will need new battery banks sadly often sooner then later. and if we or i can nail this one down it will make life much more simple for many of us if we choose this option.

the downside which is a big one, is that to us cruisers anyway, benergy is not proven... and that is the task at hand here... that is the burden i am trying to take on for my own needs. and all can profit from it be my personal experience good or bad. and i am thankful to all that are helping me shoulder that burden by there actions and input directed at understanding more about this company. the debate on middle man is clearly welcome because this is an open forum and i respect that, and that is why i have addressed it twice now... but really it is not relevant to what as i see anyway, is important or even relevent to the point at had. lets just see if this company is a solid manufacture of lifepo4 that can be trusted... you want to find a middle man to bring them to you that is your business and if you know a middle man that knows this company please share!. but first we must find out if these batteries are any good because no matter how good a middle man is and no matter how much money you put in his pockets, if the batteries are no good no middle man will somehow tweak them to be better.

lets not let this get hijacked by middle man or no middle man if possible. how about do you know a middle man who sells benergy batteries... that would be a great clue to all this... ask your middle men if they have heard anything about this company!
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