LiFePO4 Batteries: Discussion Thread for Those Using Them as House Banks

[exMaggieDrum]

Originally Posted by SV THIRD DAY

What did Lithium Ion Storage quote on the Liyuan cells?
That is what I have.

LS's website only shows the Sinopoly cells. None other mentioned. Mike sent me an email the other day saying to contact him via his direct email but nothing more than that. I'll ask about the Liyuans. Funny that they never showed up in web searches I have done in the past but I just found them by looking for "Liyuan". I found a link to the factory website but and one press release by a home storage company in Delaware. Not much else.

[SV THIRD DAY]

Originally Posted by exMaggieDrum

LS's website only shows the Sinopoly cells. None other mentioned. Mike sent me an email the other day saying to contact him via his direct email but nothing more than that. I'll ask about the Liyuans. Funny that they never showed up in web searches I have done in the past but I just found them by looking for "Liyuan". I found a link to the factory website but and one press release by a home storage company in Delaware. Not much else.

The Liyuan cells are cheaper but drop ship from China. I paid $1700 for 4-100AH cells two years ago now and have 5 friends using them also with good reviews. I would buy them again.

[exMaggieDrum]

Originally Posted by SV THIRD DAY

The Liyuan cells are cheaper but drop ship from China. I paid $1700 for 4-100AH cells two years ago now and have 5 friends using them also with good reviews. I would buy them again.

Sounds like they would be good cells. Did you have one 12v battery of 100Ah with 4 cells, or one 400Ah battery at 12v with 16 cells? The first would be $1.70/Ah. The second would be one fourth of that = $0.425/Ah. That's a huge difference compared to the Sinopoly's at $1.35/Ah. How can the price be so different? I will ask Mike what he sells the Liyuans for. I'm not sure I'm up for buying direct from the factory but may be I should reconsider. Winston quoted $1.35/Ah and I have to arrange for and pay shipping/import.

Canev says they have to ship in explosion proof containers by ship which is why they have to consolidate their requirements in monthly orders to spread the cost per cell over one container. I'm not sure how that works.

But if the price differential is so great for good quality batteries I should rethink it and go with the long lead time and hassle. When you said "drop ship" did you arrange and pay a Chinese shipper direct or did Lithium Storage do it? I need to discuss with Mike I guess.

[SV THIRD DAY]

Originally Posted by exMaggieDrum

Sounds like they would be good cells. Did you have one 12v battery of 100Ah with 4 cells, or one 400Ah battery at 12v with 16 cells? The first would be $1.70/Ah. The second would be one fourth of that = $0.425/Ah. That's a huge difference compared to the Sinopoly's at $1.35/Ah. How can the price be so different? I will ask Mike what he sells the Liyuans for. I'm not sure I'm up for buying direct from the factory but may be I should reconsider. Winston quoted $1.35/Ah and I have to arrange for and pay shipping/import.

Canev says they have to ship in explosion proof containers by ship which is why they have to consolidate their requirements in monthly orders to spread the cost per cell over one container. I'm not sure how that works.

But if the price differential is so great for good quality batteries I should rethink it and go with the long lead time and hassle. When you said "drop ship" did you arrange and pay a Chinese shipper direct or did Lithium Storage do it? I need to discuss with Mike I guess.

Lithium Ion Storage is a real company...so you pay them direct just like you would any other company and then they arrange to have the cells shipped. You never deal with their source in China for customer service or warranty, they just don't stock the Liyuan cells.

The Liyuan cells were about 20% cheaper than the Calb cells at the time and seeing that it was more of an "unknown risk" two years ago when I bought, I figured I would save anywhere I could, just in case.


[[Important Note: I am just a very happy customer and I see several of my friends being equally as happy. I'm in NO WAY related to Mike over at Lithium Ion Storage. So for the latest on the cost, shipping and details, go to the source directly. Remember, I'm just a Cruising Bozo that doesn't even have a LVC or HVC....heck I'm a heretic that should just be burnt at the stake....or am I.....]]

[exMaggieDrum]

Originally Posted by SV THIRD DAY

Lithium Ion Storage is a real company...so you pay them direct just like you would any other company and then they arrange to have the cells shipped. You never deal with their source in China for customer service or warranty, they just don't stock the Liyuan cells.

The Liyuan cells were about 20% cheaper than the Calb cells at the time and seeing that it was more of an "unknown risk" two years ago when I bought, I figured I would save anywhere I could, just in case.


[[Important Note: I am just a very happy customer and I see several of my friends being equally as happy. I'm in NO WAY related to Mike over at Lithium Ion Storage. So for the latest on the cost, shipping and details, go to the source directly. Remember, I'm just a Cruising Bozo that doesn't even have a LVC or HVC....heck I'm a heretic that should just be burnt at the stake....or am I.....]]

Rich, many thanks for your comments and sharing your experience. As soon as Mike gets back to me I'll pursue it with him. He is not as quick to reply as you are but his first email was a good start.

[JBPohle]

I just purchased 16 CALB CA180's through EVTV. I talked to them a couple of weeks ago and they also had a deal on the older "blue" CALB cells. I later ordered them online and got an email within a day and they said they had some coming and would ship them on arrival. 4 days later they arrived here in Florida. All 16 Cells arrived at 3.28 volts and I am just getting started on the project. The pictures show the very nice crate they came in and then next picture is their final location beneath the guest berth. Working on hold downs and clamping the cells together now.
Thank you to everyone here for the great information and discussion over the last 8 months while I researched the options.Attachment 119630Attachment 119632


Sent from my iPad using Cruisers Sailing Forum

[Maine Sail]

For those who may be interested I talked with Brennan at Voltronix today and he mentioned he has over 100 slightly used Voltronix 700Ah cells in stock in the USA for $1.00 per Ah..

Winston is making the Voltronix cells and Brennan has his own employee in China monitoring QC on the Voltronix runs.

Brennan can get any size Voltronx cell you'd want in about 12 weeks.

[ColdEH]

Just had a thought ,
My alternator (Eco/Tech) charges to 14 volts and then just shuts off, and my Sinopoly 600ah bank is still excepting well over 200amps. So there is no real current tail off at this voltage point , I just turn off the generator . The batteries settle down after a few hours to around 13.25 volts . I have read these batteries to be essentially full at 13.4 volts. Should I charge a little higher to achieve this resting voltage ?

I can adjust the voltage set point of the alternator easily.

Regards

My

[SV THIRD DAY]

Typhoon....
I would try and avoid the knees at the top and bottom of the charge/discharge curves since the though is that staying out of that area extends battery life. Since there is no penalty for "undercharging" (something that is not an issue with LiFePPO4 batteries) then my though would be why push it right up to the edge? What is to be gained vs the risks? If you are not running out of power between charging...that is the beauty of these LiFePO4 batteries...they don't care, so why should you?

[ColdEH]

That was my thought as well . Maine sail always speaks of the tailing off current being an indicator of a full battery level . I don't get any tailing of of the current . So I will just charge to my 14v and be done .
Regards

[JayH]

Originally Posted by typhoon

Just had a thought ,
My alternator (Eco/Tech) charges to 14 volts and then just shuts off, and my Sinopoly 600ah bank is still excepting well over 200amps. So there is no real current tail off at this voltage point , I just turn off the generator . The batteries settle down after a few hours to around 13.25 volts . I have read these batteries to be essentially full at 13.4 volts. Should I charge a little higher to achieve this resting voltage ?

I can adjust the voltage set point of the alternator easily.

Regards

My

I'm guessing you don't have an external voltage sense? If the batteries were approaching 14 volts, there would be a current tail. Since there isn't, they're not, and the alternator is being fooled by the voltage drop in the battery cable.

You can't reliably determine the battery voltage at the alternator, so you should not raise the set point. If you add an external voltage sense then setting your alternator to 14V will charge your batteries to 14V.

Like Rich said, there's little value in charging your batteries to 100%. From a battery health standpoint, it's better not to.

[ColdEH]

The Eco-Tech alternator works a little different . Charges to a voltage set point and turns off. I do have a voltage sense lead and it is all working as it should , just no tail current on these alternators .

Regards

[Maine Sail]

Originally Posted by typhoon

Just had a thought ,
My alternator (Eco/Tech) charges to 14 volts and then just shuts off, and my Sinopoly 600ah bank is still excepting well over 200amps. So there is no real current tail off at this voltage point , I just turn off the generator . The batteries settle down after a few hours to around 13.25 volts . I have read these batteries to be essentially full at 13.4 volts. Should I charge a little higher to achieve this resting voltage ?

I can adjust the voltage set point of the alternator easily.

Regards

My

What is turning off your Ecotec? Most alternators do two things bulk/constant current then absorption/constant voltage once the battery has attained the "limit voltage". Once voltage is held steady current will begin to decline. This happens much faster with LFP batteries but there is still a taper once you attain voltage and hold it steady.

Perhaps your BMS is turning off the alt once 14.0V has been attained...? At 14V and 200A the batteries are not full.... Perhaps Ecotec built you a reg that turns off at voltage but how does it re-excite and at what point...?

Most all of these cells can be determined full at 3.6V and .05C charge or 5A at 3.6V on a 100Ah cell.

At 14.0V the "C" rate for full will be lower than .05C usually about 0.02C which is what I use. So at 14.0V on a 600Ah bank somewhere around 12-20A is as full as you need.

[ColdEH]

Hey Maine Sail I was hoping you were going to chime in .

Im not sure how there regulator works , they told me that it is a proprietary piece, and I could not use any external regulator with there alternator , something about the alternator being a hybrid of regular alternator and a PM alternator or something like that . So I had them build me a regulator that I could adjust the voltage set point at , basically the point at which the alternator shuts off , and it does just that when it hits it , no current .
I don't have my BMS connected to the alternator at all , I just watch the voltage as I am charging and shut down when I hear the alternator cut out.
As for how it re-excites I have no idea , but it pumps amps and fills the batteries very fast .

Regards

[ColdEH]

I got this from one of there white papers.
"
Technology
-
Eco
-
Tech Alternators employ a hybrid design that consists of a rotor assembly having separate
wound field and permanent ma
gnet sections. The stator is made up of two lamination stacks that match the
position of the two rotor sections. Three efficient, internal fans are used to keep the Alternators cool.
Rectification is accomplished with custom designed heat sinks and heav
y
-
duty diodes. Regulation is
achieved by using a boost
-
buck technique described as follows: at low speed and high load, the wound field
section is fully energized thereby boosting the output of the permanent magnet section; at medium speed and
load, the
field current is off, allowing the magnet section to produce the output; and during high speed, low
load operation, the field current is reversed, bucking the magnetic field. All of the boost and buck changes
occur seamlessly while also maintaining consta
nt voltage output

Advantages
-
Eco
-
Tech Alternators have numerous advantages compared to
the current
Lundell, claw pole
designs that have been the standard design for so long. Output at idle, as compared to a similarly sized
conventional alternator, is
2.6 times greater.
At engine idle (1,800 alternator RPM) and at the ambient
condition of 77 degrees F stabilized, Eco
-
Tech Alternators produce 260 Amperes (135 Amperes in the 28V
version)
!
The output in the same ambient conditions at 5,000 rotor RPM is 3
25 Amperes (165 Amperes for
the 28V Alternator). The unit is rated for 8,000 RPM continuous and 10,000 RPM intermittent.
Tests conducted by Ecoair have shown that Eco
-
Tech alternators operate at about 100 degrees
F
cooler than
standard claw pole alternat
ors due to the use of non
-
heat generating permanent magnets
resulting
in both
extended
life of alternator parts
and reduced under
-
the
-
hood
heat generation
.
Built
-
in technical characteristics include: soft start, oversized brushes for longer life, three hi
gh efficiency
internal cooling fans, internal rectification and regulation, self
-
excitation, one wire hook up, and optional
remote voltage regulator sensing.
Since the Eco
-
Tech Alternator is approximately 50 percent relatively more efficient (75 to 80% co
mpared to
50 to 55%), the required input mechanical power (engine drag) to produce the same output is also 50 per cent

http://www.ecotechalternators.com/wp..._Amps_Idle.pdf


Regards