Cruisers Forum
 


Join CruisersForum Today

Reply
 
Thread Tools Rating: Thread Rating: 34 votes, 4.82 average. Display Modes
Old 24-10-2015, 11:24   #4696
Sponsoring Vendor
 
OceanPlanet's Avatar

Community Sponsor

Join Date: May 2009
Location: Woolwich, Maine
Boat: Sold it!
Posts: 309
Send a message via Skype™ to OceanPlanet
Re: LiFePO4 Batteries: Discussion Thread for Those Using Them as House Banks

Quote:
Originally Posted by offpist View Post
Testing out the Balmar AT-200 together with an Balmar 60-150-SR-IG on an Yanmar 4JH4E. Gives me 350A charging power for my 1000AH Lifepo4 setup.

Controlled by two Mastervolt Alpha Pro MB regulators.

As its 10 groove Serpentine on both alternators, i am not too worried about bearings wear on the engine. But maybe I should be?

For now I have limited at 50% output on the regulators, still giving me plenty of power and the alternators are running very cool this way.

If I want full power I can deactivate "small engine" mode.

Balmar is P+ regulated, and Mastervolt is N- regulated, but that was easy to fix.
Very nice! For many of these Yanmar engines we have been able to fit modified American Power 42i large-case J180's into the small case position, using custom pulley/belt kits. Not always...but when we can it is very slick for charging Li banks. Here is a pic of a recent custom 24V x 160A AP 42i on a Yanmar Y3M30. This was for a custom 53ft Bieker cat by Gold Coast yachts, so with two engines they can charge at around 250A @ 27V.

For 12V boats we have done similar, for a solid 400A @ 14V (two engines).
Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	Custom alts-pulleys 01m2.jpg
Views:	174
Size:	421.2 KB
ID:	111525   Click image for larger version

Name:	Custom alts-pulleys 02m2.jpg
Views:	170
Size:	404.8 KB
ID:	111526  

__________________
Twice around was enough for me...
Now I just help others prep for ocean trips...
www.bruceschwab.com
OceanPlanet is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 28-10-2015, 06:13   #4697
Registered User

Join Date: Oct 2015
Posts: 2
Re: LiFePO4 Batteries: Discussion Thread for Those Using Them as House Banks

Quote:
Originally Posted by OceanPlanet View Post


We used to really believe in CALB, having sold them for many years in the Genasun GLi systems. However have been having issues lately, especially with the new CA cells. Even with supposedly identical specs, there have been differences in coloumbic efficiencies, making them difficult to balance in high-current charging applications. We switching to something else where our mfg has more control of the supply chain to ensure better QC.
Very disappointed to hear that the Newer CALB CA cells are proving difficult to Balance at high charge currents. I was about to invest in the CALB CA 100FI cells. What brand cells would you recommend, or what brand are you currently using to get the more consistent QC. Thanks in advance..
__________________

__________________
SYEnigma is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 28-10-2015, 06:27   #4698
Registered User

Join Date: Aug 2010
Posts: 111
Re: LiFePO4 Batteries: Discussion Thread for Those Using Them as House Banks

Oceanplanet:

What cells are you having trouble with, the CAxxxFI's or the new CAMxxxFI's?
__________________
Singleprop is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 28-10-2015, 07:33   #4699
Sponsoring Vendor
 
OceanPlanet's Avatar

Community Sponsor

Join Date: May 2009
Location: Woolwich, Maine
Boat: Sold it!
Posts: 309
Send a message via Skype™ to OceanPlanet
Re: LiFePO4 Batteries: Discussion Thread for Those Using Them as House Banks

Quote:
Originally Posted by SYEnigma View Post
Very disappointed to hear that the Newer CALB CA cells are proving difficult to Balance at high charge currents. I was about to invest in the CALB CA 100FI cells. What brand cells would you recommend, or what brand are you currently using to get the more consistent QC. Thanks in advance..
We are now working with Lithionics, and working together have developed a new modular plug & play dual-channel (dual-bus) BMS to our specifications learned from many years with Genasun. We are adamant about using dual-channel for house banks and also about the details of the HVC/LVC settings on both the charge and discharge channels.

The cells used by Lithionics are not available outside of complete packs/systems (that I know of). They have better control of their supply chain (and won't divulge the exact details). However I do know that their cells are the only type available in the US with the ION-EXT cell separator technology by Mitsui that shuts down the cells if they overheat.

To address Singleprop's question (CA vs CAM) I'll have to ask Genasun. As an over $1M client with CALB, Genasun is very disheartened with the lack of responsiveness from CALB to address or even explain the changes in QC. So much so that Genasun is backing out of the Li battery game for marine applications. We have known this for a while so that's why we have been working for some time in the background with Lithionics to develop our new OPE-Li3 BMS

I know this thread is more for the DIY crowd, and certainly with careful research, electrical experience, and diligent maintenance a DIY Li system can work. Maine Sail is a perfect example. However for our market of builders, installers, and users who don't want to worry, we need to provide a system like the OPE-Li3 configuration.

The functionality of Genasun has been very good, and I owe most of what I know from working with them over the years. However Lithionics has the resources to take things to the next level: dependable cell supply chain, watertight cases, more robust and watertight cell loop wire, more reserve capacity after first LVC, UN-DOT approval for shipping (no more hazmat drums), and the responsiveness to quickly create our new BMS to our specs.
Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	IMG_20151027_141213792m2.jpg
Views:	136
Size:	312.0 KB
ID:	111706   Click image for larger version

Name:	IMG_20151027_141625182_HDRm2.jpg
Views:	132
Size:	355.5 KB
ID:	111707  

__________________
Twice around was enough for me...
Now I just help others prep for ocean trips...
www.bruceschwab.com
OceanPlanet is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 28-10-2015, 07:51   #4700
Registered User

Join Date: Aug 2010
Posts: 111
Re: LiFePO4 Batteries: Discussion Thread for Those Using Them as House Banks

You mention this happens during high current charging. What would that be: 1C, 2C or 3C

- in that case it might not be so relevant for the average user who generally charges at around 0.3-0.5C.
__________________
Singleprop is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 28-10-2015, 08:15   #4701
Registered User

Join Date: Oct 2015
Posts: 2
Re: LiFePO4 Batteries: Discussion Thread for Those Using Them as House Banks

OceanPlanet:

Thank you for your prompt and detailed reply, I have closely followed your WebSite for some time and have seen the recent release of the new Lithionics OPE-Li3 BMS. They look the way forward in LiFePO4. I am a DIY out of financial necessity and also due to the fact I sail in very remote places.. I am retiring a set of 10 year old and excellent Sonnenshine Gel Battery's and am like many others on this forum looking to increase amp hours without the extra added space and weight, and most importantly looking to maximise my energy budget with a reliable and long lasting system.. At the present time LiPO is the most mature of all the newer technologies and is becoming more attainable for the DIY crowd who is willing to spend the time, effort and research required to set up a safe system. Thanks again for your information and my research continues...
__________________
SYEnigma is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 28-10-2015, 08:46   #4702
Sponsoring Vendor
 
OceanPlanet's Avatar

Community Sponsor

Join Date: May 2009
Location: Woolwich, Maine
Boat: Sold it!
Posts: 309
Send a message via Skype™ to OceanPlanet
Re: LiFePO4 Batteries: Discussion Thread for Those Using Them as House Banks

Quote:
Originally Posted by Singleprop View Post
You mention this happens during high current charging. What would that be: 1C, 2C or 3C

- in that case it might not be so relevant for the average user who generally charges at around 0.3-0.5C.
Good question. Note that the max charge we've been recommending for the past few years is 1.2C or so.

At what lower rate does the balancing keep up? I don't know, other that Genasun has been making them work out for some polar/solar applications with low charge/discharge rates. We aren't involved with those projects so don't know the details, other than the fact that Genasun tells us they don't trust the cells for marine any more.
__________________
Twice around was enough for me...
Now I just help others prep for ocean trips...
www.bruceschwab.com
OceanPlanet is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 28-10-2015, 14:03   #4703
Marine Service Provider
 
OceanSeaSpray's Avatar

Join Date: Aug 2013
Location: New Zealand
Boat: Custom 13m aluminium sloop
Posts: 361
Re: LiFePO4 Batteries: Discussion Thread for Those Using Them as House Banks

Voltage-based balancing BMS solutions don't work and will never work at high currents. As soon as there are differences in the internal resistance of the cells, the voltage information they use to make balancing decisions gets skewed by the current and they start throwing the pack out instead of balancing it.

Real-time "active" balancing - to "maximise capacity" as some vendors put it - is nonsensical. You would need to be able to transfer the full charge/discharge current from cell-to-cell at times to be able to keep up, which is never going to happen and would cost a fortune.

When you look inside a Mastervolt pack, you can see that it is not capable of transferring more than about 20A probably from cell to cell (30A fuse), and this already requires large switch-mode transformers. This type of design is possible, but it is complicated, costly and makes no sense.

Short of being incredibly lucky when buying the cells and operating them quite conservatively, balancing becomes necessary after "a while" to keep the system working properly. However, "no balancing" can be a longer lasting/better performing option than trying to balance with a junk-grade solution like cell boards and the like.
__________________
"The case for elimination: the only equipment that never needs maintenance and never breaks down is the one you don't have on board."
OceanSeaSpray is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 28-10-2015, 16:28   #4704
Registered User
 
bill good's Avatar

Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Brisbane Australia
Boat: Crowther windspeed 36' cat Goldrush
Posts: 700
Re: LiFePO4 Batteries: Discussion Thread for Those Using Them as House Banks

Can say from trying to use the "car" type of alternator set up on small marine engine & the loading from life batteries at the low end of the RPM range has lead me to go with a system that inhibits the load on the charging until the RPM is up to a level where the HP going to the battery is not loading engine or alternator. (picked 2000 RPM). Belts were a problem at the lower RPM but not at the higher RPM. The Yanmar 1GMS on my boat have "bogged down" on start up with 40A/H battery & prevented getting the RPM up when put into gear. Nearly 4yrs with life start batteries & very pleased the lead is out.
__________________
bill good is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 29-10-2015, 01:00   #4705
Sponsoring Vendor
 
OceanPlanet's Avatar

Community Sponsor

Join Date: May 2009
Location: Woolwich, Maine
Boat: Sold it!
Posts: 309
Send a message via Skype™ to OceanPlanet
Re: LiFePO4 Batteries: Discussion Thread for Those Using Them as House Banks

Quote:
Originally Posted by OceanSeaSpray View Post
Voltage-based balancing BMS solutions don't work and will never work at high currents. As soon as there are differences in the internal resistance of the cells, the voltage information they use to make balancing decisions gets skewed by the current and they start throwing the pack out instead of balancing it.

Real-time "active" balancing - to "maximise capacity" as some vendors put it - is nonsensical. You would need to be able to transfer the full charge/discharge current from cell-to-cell at times to be able to keep up, which is never going to happen and would cost a fortune.

When you look inside a Mastervolt pack, you can see that it is not capable of transferring more than about 20A probably from cell to cell (30A fuse), and this already requires large switch-mode transformers. This type of design is possible, but it is complicated, costly and makes no sense.

Short of being incredibly lucky when buying the cells and operating them quite conservatively, balancing becomes necessary after "a while" to keep the system working properly. However, "no balancing" can be a longer lasting/better performing option than trying to balance with a junk-grade solution like cell boards and the like.
At least a couple of the newer BMS's we know of do either some sort of resistance measurements at the cell level, and/or somehow track/log cell balancing requirements so that the balancing can get started "ahead" of the voltage curve. I don't know enough about it to describe in detail, and of course they don't want to tell me too much either....
__________________
Twice around was enough for me...
Now I just help others prep for ocean trips...
www.bruceschwab.com
OceanPlanet is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 29-10-2015, 14:41   #4706
Marine Service Provider
 
OceanSeaSpray's Avatar

Join Date: Aug 2013
Location: New Zealand
Boat: Custom 13m aluminium sloop
Posts: 361
Re: LiFePO4 Batteries: Discussion Thread for Those Using Them as House Banks

Quote:
Originally Posted by OceanPlanet View Post
At least a couple of the newer BMS's we know of do either some sort of resistance measurements at the cell level, and/or somehow track/log cell balancing requirements so that the balancing can get started "ahead" of the voltage curve. I don't know enough about it to describe in detail, and of course they don't want to tell me too much either....
That's right, you can't claim to balance in real-time when things are going west, so you have to do it pro-actively based on recent data.
The issue is that - short of having access to and using cell current information - you can only try to fudge things.
Also - if you claim balancing - you need to be able to make very fine and precise voltage measurements, with a great degree of consistency from cell-to-cell. The gear we commonly see around is not up to it.

What I could find when I wanted a BMS was so inadequate, undesirable and risky that I decided to develop my own. A BMS is not just protecting a battery, but also a very large-value asset. After that I built some more of them, because they are safe and resilient and don't burn any power. Those don't balance and no cell differences developed after one year. The issue I see with going further with it is price competition from junk-grade solutions that pretend to do more or less the same.
I am now working on second generation hardware based on what I have observed and then we will see. The new design will be able to correct for balance issues, but also manage the bank in general with much more functionality.
__________________
"The case for elimination: the only equipment that never needs maintenance and never breaks down is the one you don't have on board."
OceanSeaSpray is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 29-10-2015, 18:00   #4707
Registered User

Join Date: Jun 2015
Posts: 462
Re: LiFePO4 Batteries: Discussion Thread for Those Using Them as House Banks

i've read here and there this thread throught the years...

how many average cycles do we get from winston lifeYpo4? average DOD?

i have a big question: how to use a 12 V or 24 V lifeYpo4 battery pack (controlled and keep balanced by BMS) as main an only battery pack, recharging them with a second alternator (if not even a 3rd, look at this )

is it possible to buy some voltage regulator for lifepo to replace the original PB battery voltage regulator (from the original alternator)?

with PB battery i found all what i need in 2 minutes..but..i want something that last lot of thousand cycle (i calculated average 30% dod)...and sealed and safe..

thanks all
__________________
stefano_ita is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 30-10-2015, 04:26   #4708
Registered User

Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Centreville, VA
Boat: Lagoon 410 ELECTRIC!
Posts: 360
Re: LiFePO4 Batteries: Discussion Thread for Those Using Them as House Banks

Has anyone here used the ORION BMS system? Any comments?


Steve in Solomons MD
__________________
Hyprdrv is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 30-10-2015, 08:52   #4709
Registered User

Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: Atlantic City, NJ
Boat: Beneteau 49
Posts: 87
Re: LiFePO4 Batteries: Discussion Thread for Those Using Them as House Banks

Quote:
Originally Posted by Singleprop View Post
You mention this happens during high current charging. What would that be: 1C, 2C or 3C

- in that case it might not be so relevant for the average user who generally charges at around 0.3-0.5C.
My 12v bank of 8 CALB CA400FI have a cell difference from the high cell to the low cell of between .008v to .012v. I installed the bank in May and this variation has been consistent all season. My max charge capacity is 150 amps which is about .2C.
__________________
georgec is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 30-10-2015, 09:23   #4710
Registered User
 
typhoon's Avatar

Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Toronto Canada
Boat: Bristol 45.5
Posts: 909
Images: 1
Re: LiFePO4 Batteries: Discussion Thread for Those Using Them as House Banks

My 600 ah house bank of Sinopoly's (8x300ah) after one year installed , balance at .003 and .007 volts in around a one third state of charge . I charge at 220 amps .

Regards


Sent from my iPhone using Cruisers Sailing Forum
__________________

typhoon is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
battery, lifepo4, LiFePO4 Batteries, sailing

Thread Tools
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
LiFePO4 Batteries - Okay Tear Me Apart ;-) jallum Electrical: Batteries, Generators & Solar 395 03-12-2015 13:19
Voltage drop under load, amps read 99% ?? VVD Electrical: Batteries, Generators & Solar 25 28-06-2011 16:25


Our Communities

Our communities encompass many different hobbies and interests, but each one is built on friendly, intelligent membership.

» More about our Communities

Automotive Communities

Our Automotive communities encompass many different makes and models. From U.S. domestics to European Saloons.

» More about our Automotive Communities

Marine Communities

Our Marine websites focus on Cruising and Sailing Vessels, including forums and the largest cruising Wiki project on the web today.

» More about our Marine Communities


Copyright 2002- Social Knowledge, LLC All Rights Reserved.

All times are GMT -7. The time now is 23:00.


Google+
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2016, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Social Knowledge Networks
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2016, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.

ShowCase vBulletin Plugins by Drive Thru Online, Inc.