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Old 03-06-2014, 15:50   #3706
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Re: LiFePO4 Batteries: Discussion Thread for Those Using Them as House Banks

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Here is a link: W-46 Equus burns and sinks

Very little information regarding the specifics.
The claim is that it's the same type of Lithium battery used on airliners (which is now only the Boeing 787). That is lithium cobalt oxide (LiCoO2) and they are violently flammable. They are also used by Tesla. LiCoO2 has just one advantage over LiFePO4, namely about 10% higher energy density. I'm happy to sacrifice 10% energy density for the extreme safety of LiFePO4.
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Old 03-06-2014, 15:54   #3707
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Re: LiFePO4 Batteries: Discussion Thread for Those Using Them as House Banks

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24VDC and
Wow, that's a 52 kwhr bank, they do want their A/C day and night without the gen set.
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Old 03-06-2014, 16:11   #3708
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Re: LiFePO4 Batteries: Discussion Thread for Those Using Them as House Banks

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Wow, that's a 52 kwhr bank, they do want their A/C day and night without the gen set.
It won't be used for propulsion?
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Old 03-06-2014, 16:38   #3709
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Re: LiFePO4 Batteries: Discussion Thread for Those Using Them as House Banks

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Originally Posted by mcarling View Post
The claim is that it's the same type of Lithium battery used on airliners (which is now only the Boeing 787). That is lithium cobalt oxide (LiCoO2) and they are violently flammable. They are also used by Tesla. LiCoO2 has just one advantage over LiFePO4, namely about 10% higher energy density. I'm happy to sacrifice 10% energy density for the extreme safety of LiFePO4.
I learned something new. As much as I like my LiFePO4 prismatic cells, I always thought the 18650 cells used in the Tesla had a density of around 150whr per kg, almost twice that of my Winston yellow cells which are about 80whr per kg.
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Old 03-06-2014, 16:39   #3710
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Re: LiFePO4 Batteries: Discussion Thread for Those Using Them as House Banks

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It won't be used for propulsion?
At 24 volts, probably not.
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Old 03-06-2014, 16:45   #3711
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Re: LiFePO4 Batteries: Discussion Thread for Those Using Them as House Banks

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Originally Posted by mcarling View Post
The claim is that it's the same type of Lithium battery used on airliners (which is now only the Boeing 787). That is lithium cobalt oxide (LiCoO2) and they are violently flammable. They are also used by Tesla. LiCoO2 has just one advantage over LiFePO4, namely about 10% higher energy density. I'm happy to sacrifice 10% energy density for the extreme safety of LiFePO4.
Any source for the claim that Equus was using LiCo....? Anyone know who did the install?
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Old 03-06-2014, 18:13   #3712
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Re: LiFePO4 Batteries: Discussion Thread for Those Using Them as House Banks

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Any source for the claim that Equus was using LiCo....?
Only the link in Reply #3698 where it is claimed that the Li-ion batteries were the same type as used in the airliners which caught fire. LiCoO2 batteries are so flammable that piercing them suffices to cause spontaneous ignition. LiFePO4 batteries are not highly flammable.
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Old 03-06-2014, 18:22   #3713
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Re: LiFePO4 Batteries: Discussion Thread for Those Using Them as House Banks

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Only the link in Reply #3698 where it is claimed that the Li-ion batteries were the same type as used in the airliners which caught fire. LiCoO2 batteries are so flammable that piercing them suffices to cause spontaneous ignition. LiFePO4 batteries are not highly flammable.
To those who don't know lithium, all "lithium" batteries are the same as "Boeing used"...
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Old 03-06-2014, 18:37   #3714
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Re: LiFePO4 Batteries: Discussion Thread for Those Using Them as House Banks

Hello,

This accident is quite unfortunate, and like all news. It will only focus on the words "Lithium battery" rather then the exact chemistry of the bank in question.

It always surprises me that when a boat owner uses a few lead acid 200Ah Lorry starting batteries for a house bank on a vessel, and they never monitor or maintain it, and that starts a fire... no one seems to speak of the dangers of Lead Acid batteries, or the importance to monitor and maintain the batteries.

Ignorance of the media passing on the ignorance !

Fire suppression and detailed battery monitoring may be redundant to some, but here we are... An unfortunate way to have their eyes opened.

Alan
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Old 03-06-2014, 18:55   #3715
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Re: LiFePO4 Batteries: Discussion Thread for Those Using Them as House Banks

We need a little more info here on the batteries used in Equus--maybe someone can wander by the Brooklin Boat Yard and chat with them before the lawyers shut them up.
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Old 03-06-2014, 19:08   #3716
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Re: LiFePO4 Batteries: Discussion Thread for Those Using Them as House Banks

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We need a little more info here on the batteries used in Equus--maybe someone can wander by the Brooklin Boat Yard and chat with them before the lawyers shut them up.
Brooklyn Boatyard had nothing to to with any Li batteries on Equus. The boat did not get built or delivered with Li. If the boat had Li then it must have been added by the current owners and a yard other than Brooklyn or Rockport Marine. Rockport Marine has not yet installed any Li systems...
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Old 03-06-2014, 19:32   #3717
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Re: LiFePO4 Batteries: Discussion Thread for Those Using Them as House Banks

I think you're right that the batteries were an add-on, but I'm sure that they did not cheap out on the installation. The boat was homeported in Nantucket, and was reported to be returning from a yard in RI, so maybe some there knows more. According to a poster in Woodenboat

We were having a boat yard barbecue last night when this news came in and the captain is a friend of the yard. After a bit of failed efforts to get full info from the internet the simple expedient of a phone call to the captain did the trick. Officially the cause of the fire remains under investigation. As I understand it second hand from a hasty conversation that was mostly "glad you're both safe", they were motor sailing when the captain thought something was wrong and shut down the engine to inspect. All looked fine, no gauge warnings or hot spots so turned it on and instantly the lithium-ion batteries burst into flame. That fire does not extinguish - they emptied everything at the fire to no avail. There were other boats around who heard the Mayday so the captain and crew were able to step off the boat. From the fire start to sinking was only about forty minutes. No human injuries.

Maybe a BMS/overvoltage issue, but it would be nice to know more.
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Old 04-06-2014, 02:13   #3718
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Re: LiFePO4 Batteries: Discussion Thread for Those Using Them as House Banks

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Quoting someone else:
"... instantly the lithium-ion batteries burst into flame. That fire does not extinguish - they emptied everything at the fire to no avail."
Sounds exactly like a LiCoO2 battery fire.
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Old 04-06-2014, 03:22   #3719
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Re: LiFePO4 Batteries: Discussion Thread for Those Using Them as House Banks

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I learned something new. As much as I like my LiFePO4 prismatic cells, I always thought the 18650 cells used in the Tesla had a density of around 150whr per kg, almost twice that of my Winston yellow cells which are about 80whr per kg.
Be careful with how they measure weight. mWh/g usually but not always counts the weight of the cathode, anode, and electrolyte but not any enclosure. Wh/kg usually but not always additionally counts the weight of the enclosure. So, comparisons across sources are problematic.
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Old 04-06-2014, 09:25   #3720
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Re: LiFePO4 Batteries: Discussion Thread for Those Using Them as House Banks

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Be careful with how they measure weight. mWh/g usually but not always counts the weight of the cathode, anode, and electrolyte but not any enclosure. Wh/kg usually but not always additionally counts the weight of the enclosure. So, comparisons across sources are problematic.
There was no "they", I do the math on production cells.
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