Cruisers Forum
 


Join CruisersForum Today

Reply
 
Thread Tools Rating: Thread Rating: 33 votes, 4.82 average. Display Modes
Old 16-12-2013, 19:24   #3301

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Apr 2006
Posts: 12,106
Re: LiFePO4 Batteries: Discussion Thread for Those Using Them as House Banks

jd-
you might consider calling them on the phone, to make sure there is a 100% understanding of what you are ordering and when it will be shipped by, and what will happen if it is not shipped in a timely manner. Then send a fax (yes, that fossil)confirming in writing the terms of the conversation and placing the order, charged to a credit card.

That way there is no debating what was or wasn't said, and if the batteries don't ship, you can send a copy of the fax to your credit card company, so they can charge back the order with no questions as to what the explicit terms were.

And ask for a confirmation of receipt of the fax, not just your own fax log showing it was received there. It is amazing how many faxes seem to get transmitted, acknowledged by the recipient's machine, and somehow stolen by aliens (Google "alien fax abductions") before anyone ever sees them. Absolutely incredible.

Oh, when you see there are no Google hits on that? See, that's proof of just how good they are at stealing faxes, too. <WEG>
__________________

__________________
hellosailor is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 16-12-2013, 19:47   #3302
Registered User

Join Date: Feb 2013
Location: WY / Currently in Hayes VA on the Chesapeake
Boat: Ocean Alexander, Ocean 44
Posts: 794
Re: LiFePO4 Batteries: Discussion Thread for Those Using Them as House Banks

Quote:
Originally Posted by goboatingnow View Post
Sorry what part are you disagreeing with

Dave
My apologies. I shouldn't have made it personal. Just after I posted it I decided to delete it but was interrupted and by the time I got back I could not delete or edit it.

The big red sign/chart makes it appear that LiFe batteries will blow up or start and sustain a chemical fire like some of the other Li techs. will. It appears to me that the chart is misleading.
__________________

__________________
darylat8750 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 16-12-2013, 21:42   #3303
Registered User
 
diugo's Avatar

Join Date: Dec 2012
Location: Yuma, AZ
Boat: USS Asymptote
Posts: 261
Re: LiFePO4 Batteries: Discussion Thread for Those Using Them as House Banks

I think the "big red graph" is pretty representative of what would eventually happen with all lithium ion chemistries when subjected to extreme temperatures well above 200C.

Lithium iron phosphate may not behave as spectacularly as lithium cobalt oxide, but LFPs really aren't heaven-sent. Ultimately, lithium is lithium.
__________________
diugo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 16-12-2013, 23:54   #3304
Jd1
Registered User

Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: Victoria, BC
Boat: Catalina 36 MKII
Posts: 874
Re: LiFePO4 Batteries: Discussion Thread for Those Using Them as House Banks

Quote:
Originally Posted by hellosailor View Post
jd-
you might consider calling them on the phone, to make sure there is a 100% understanding of what you are ordering and when it will be shipped by, and what will happen if it is not shipped in a timely manner. Then send a fax (yes, that fossil)confirming in writing the terms of the conversation and placing the order, charged to a credit card.

That way there is no debating what was or wasn't said, and if the batteries don't ship, you can send a copy of the fax to your credit card company, so they can charge back the order with no questions as to what the explicit terms were.

And ask for a confirmation of receipt of the fax, not just your own fax log showing it was received there. It is amazing how many faxes seem to get transmitted, acknowledged by the recipient's machine, and somehow stolen by aliens (Google "alien fax abductions") before anyone ever sees them. Absolutely incredible.

Oh, when you see there are no Google hits on that? See, that's proof of just how good they are at stealing faxes, too. <WEG>
Unfortunately, in order to purchase product from Balqon via the web, you have to accept their terms and they are about as one sided as I have ever seen. I believe any change in terms have to be notorized and sealed in blood from Winston himself before it supercedes the terms outlined on the web page.
I am pretty certain I will not order that way.
I might try and see if I can order via email without agreeing to those bizarre terms.
Oh, the 25% deposit is also pretty steep for a normally stocked product.
I am also concerned with a two month timeline that VISA might say that it is too late to complain if the product isn't shipped in time (never mind the fact that the terms say they can pretty well ship whenever they want and whatever quantity they want).
I might contact VISA and get their story of what my options are if Balqon fails to deliver.
__________________
Jd1 is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 17-12-2013, 00:18   #3305
Marine Service Provider

Join Date: Oct 2011
Posts: 1,205
Re: LiFePO4 Batteries: Discussion Thread for Those Using Them as House Banks

No matter what the Visa/CC companies say. If you place an order with cash or credit, and the company files for BK.

You will become an un-secured creditor in the following Bankruptcy Proceedings.

You will get your day in Court at about $600 to $1500.00USD per hr Attorney fees.

In the end you will still be an un-secured creditor.

Which could mean $0.00 USD per dollar claimed. Plus Attorney fees!

Lloyd


Quote:
Originally Posted by Jd1 View Post
Unfortunately, in order to purchase product from Balqon via the web, you have to accept their terms and they are about as one sided as I have ever seen. I believe any change in terms have to be notorized and sealed in blood from Winston himself before it supercedes the terms outlined on the web page.
I am pretty certain I will not order that way.
I might try and see if I can order via email without agreeing to those bizarre terms.
Oh, the 25% deposit is also pretty steep for a normally stocked product.
I am also concerned with a two month timeline that VISA might say that it is too late to complain if the product isn't shipped in time (never mind the fact that the terms say they can pretty well ship whenever they want and whatever quantity they want).
I might contact VISA and get their story of what my options are if Balqon fails to deliver.
__________________
FlyingCloud1937 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 17-12-2013, 00:25   #3306
Jd1
Registered User

Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: Victoria, BC
Boat: Catalina 36 MKII
Posts: 874
Re: LiFePO4 Batteries: Discussion Thread for Those Using Them as House Banks

Quote:
Originally Posted by FlyingCloud1937 View Post
No matter what the Visa/CC companies say. If you place an order with cash or credit, and the company files for BK.
You will become an un-secured creditor in the following Bankruptcy Proceedings.
Thanks Lloyd, that is about what I thought
__________________
Jd1 is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 17-12-2013, 05:42   #3307
Marine Service Provider
 
Maine Sail's Avatar

Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Maine
Boat: CS-36T - Cupecoy
Posts: 2,901
Re: LiFePO4 Batteries: Discussion Thread for Those Using Them as House Banks

Guys,

Balquon is not the only game in town. Carl at electricarparts in Utah has CALB cells, which I would have preferred if my closeout Winston's were not so inexpensive. CALB are the cells companies like Geunasun prefer to use in their Li battery builds due to consistency & quality.

A 400Ah CALB cell, new style, is running $499.00 per cell.. The Winston 400Ah are $440.00 but Balquon's shipping is quite steep so it may be close to a wash in the end. ...

Carl also has these HiPower 300Ah Primatics on sale for $260.00 each / 300Ah bank for $1040.00...
__________________
Marine How To Articles
Maine Sail is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 17-12-2013, 07:21   #3308
Registered User

Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: Atlantic City, NJ
Boat: Beneteau 49
Posts: 87
Re: LiFePO4 Batteries: Discussion Thread for Those Using Them as House Banks

Quote:
Originally Posted by FlyingCloud1937 View Post
No matter what the Visa/CC companies say. If you place an order with cash or credit, and the company files for BK.

You will become an un-secured creditor in the following Bankruptcy Proceedings.

You will get your day in Court at about $600 to $1500.00USD per hr Attorney fees.

In the end you will still be an un-secured creditor.

Which could mean $0.00 USD per dollar claimed. Plus Attorney fees!

Lloyd
Sorry Lloyd, that is not true, at least not with my Master Card account. I spoke to the disputes department and it does not matter what the reason is for the product not being delivered or a service not rendered. As long as the claim is filed within 120 days of purchase the amount will be refunded. They used an example of an airline that went out of buisness and they refunded all charges.

My agreement is with my credit card company not the vendor. The credit card company becomes the unsecured creditor.
__________________
georgec is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 17-12-2013, 08:38   #3309
Nearly an old salt
 
goboatingnow's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 13,649
Images: 3
Quote:
Originally Posted by diugo View Post
I think the "big red graph" is pretty representative of what would eventually happen with all lithium ion chemistries when subjected to extreme temperatures well above 200C.

Lithium iron phosphate may not behave as spectacularly as lithium cobalt oxide, but LFPs really aren't heaven-sent. Ultimately, lithium is lithium.
Correct , they are all from the same family , it would seem that some people seem to think lifepo4 is different then Li -ion , it's is Li-ion , just with some slight variations due to cathode makeup

Dave
__________________
Check out my new blog on smart boat technology, networking and gadgets for the connected sailor! - http://smartboats.tumblr.com
goboatingnow is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 17-12-2013, 09:11   #3310
Nearly an old salt
 
goboatingnow's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 13,649
Images: 3
Quote:
Originally Posted by georgec View Post

Sorry Lloyd, that is not true, at least not with my Master Card account. I spoke to the disputes department and it does not matter what the reason is for the product not being delivered or a service not rendered. As long as the claim is filed within 120 days of purchase the amount will be refunded. They used an example of an airline that went out of buisness and they refunded all charges.

My agreement is with my credit card company not the vendor. The credit card company becomes the unsecured creditor.
Correct , my experience as a bankrupt airline , visa gave me all $4000 back.

Dave
__________________
Check out my new blog on smart boat technology, networking and gadgets for the connected sailor! - http://smartboats.tumblr.com
goboatingnow is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 17-12-2013, 09:19   #3311
Nearly an old salt
 
goboatingnow's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 13,649
Images: 3
Quote:
Originally Posted by diugo View Post
I notice a jump in the internal resistance of my 3 y/o Balqon Specials even at 10C---which fortunately is about as cold as they usually get.

But it makes me wonder whether the plating-while-charging issue starts to manifest even above 0C...
In any Li battery plating starts once the anode lithification begins to taper , yet the applied voltage remains, this is often called " voltage stress" there is often plating but below zero it accelerates as cheap coke anodes show poor low temperature performance.

It's also the reason trickle based standby charging should be avoided on full batteries. Especially long term standby trickle charging

The plating in general will reverse if not allowed to get great. Plating is not homogenous , but dendritic in nature , which can pose serious safety issues.

Hence as you approach zero and below, you must begin to seriously modify the charging regime.

Dave
__________________
Check out my new blog on smart boat technology, networking and gadgets for the connected sailor! - http://smartboats.tumblr.com
goboatingnow is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 17-12-2013, 10:17   #3312
Senior Cruiser
 
senormechanico's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Aug 2003
Boat: Dragonfly 1000 trimaran
Posts: 5,205
Re: LiFePO4 Batteries: Discussion Thread for Those Using Them as House Banks

Quote:
Originally Posted by diugo View Post
I think the "big red graph" is pretty representative of what would eventually happen with all lithium ion chemistries when subjected to extreme temperatures well above 200C.

Lithium iron phosphate may not behave as spectacularly as lithium cobalt oxide, but LFPs really aren't heaven-sent. Ultimately, lithium is lithium.
A Pizza wouldn't survive 200 c very long either.

I have a question about the dreaded float scenario.
I've got 700 aH for the house's emergency backup system.
It's really only there for power outages, but it also powers several night light led strings as well as a sleeping Midnite Solar 150.
The MS 150 only goes into action when the grid goes down (Enphase powered grid tie solar array).
Total draw is around 400 ma.
I need to account for that and a wall wart would do nicely.
I would like to not have to plug/unplug it to keep the cells happy.
So my question is, what's the general concensus for a float voltage from an adjustable 750 ma supply in this scenario?
__________________
"I have never understood why it is "greed" to want to keep the money you have earned,
but not greed to want to take somebody else's money"

-Thomas Sowell
senormechanico is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 17-12-2013, 12:15   #3313
Registered User
 
diugo's Avatar

Join Date: Dec 2012
Location: Yuma, AZ
Boat: USS Asymptote
Posts: 261
Re: LiFePO4 Batteries: Discussion Thread for Those Using Them as House Banks

Quote:
Originally Posted by senormechanico View Post
So my question is, what's the general concensus for a float voltage from an adjustable 750 ma supply in this scenario?
750mA is barely C/1000 to a 700Ah bank, so I doubt it would pose any "float threat" at all. In fact, the 750mA may not be enough to do any useful charging whatsoever---the low energy may just be dissipated as heat. This will be evident if the bank voltage continues to decline even with the wall wart plugged in.

Since the 400mA x 24 hours is about 10Ah/day, a better solution might be to use a 10A DC power supply, hooked to a wall timer so that it charges for just an hour a day.

ETA: Or you could just hook the LED strings directly to the wall wart...
__________________
diugo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 17-12-2013, 12:41   #3314
Nearly an old salt
 
goboatingnow's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 13,649
Images: 3
Quote:
Originally Posted by diugo View Post

750mA is barely C/1000 to a 700Ah bank, so I doubt it would pose any "float threat" at all. In fact, the 750mA may not be enough to do any useful charging whatsoever---the low energy may just be dissipated as heat. This will be evident if the bank voltage continues to decline even with the wall wart plugged in.

Since the 400mA x 24 hours is about 10Ah/day, a better solution might be to use a 10A DC power supply, hooked to a wall timer so that it charges for just an hour a day.

ETA: Or you could just hook the LED strings directly to the wall wart...
I think the point about floating is misunderstood. In effect applying any voltage at or about the nominal cell voltage will cause some Li ions to intercalate into the carbon anode , over a long period , once the anode can acct no more ions , plating begins.

Hence the answer to your question, is how long are the full batteries then going tone left on float , furthermore , how full is the battery when the float charge is applied. It's all a matter of degree

Dave
__________________
Check out my new blog on smart boat technology, networking and gadgets for the connected sailor! - http://smartboats.tumblr.com
goboatingnow is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 17-12-2013, 12:59   #3315
Registered User
 
diugo's Avatar

Join Date: Dec 2012
Location: Yuma, AZ
Boat: USS Asymptote
Posts: 261
Re: LiFePO4 Batteries: Discussion Thread for Those Using Them as House Banks

Quote:
Originally Posted by goboatingnow View Post
I think the point about floating is misunderstood. In effect applying any voltage at or about the nominal cell voltage will cause some Li ions to intercalate into the carbon anode , over a long period , once the anode can acct no more ions , plating begins.
Agreed, in theory. But in practicality, would a tiny 750mA wall wart really have any noticeable effect on the cell voltages of a huge 700Ah LFP bank? I guess there's one way to find out...
__________________

__________________
diugo is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
battery, lifepo4, LiFePO4 Batteries, sailing

Thread Tools
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
LiFePO4 Batteries - Okay Tear Me Apart ;-) jallum Electrical: Batteries, Generators & Solar 395 03-12-2015 13:19
Voltage drop under load, amps read 99% ?? VVD Electrical: Batteries, Generators & Solar 25 28-06-2011 16:25


Our Communities

Our communities encompass many different hobbies and interests, but each one is built on friendly, intelligent membership.

» More about our Communities

Automotive Communities

Our Automotive communities encompass many different makes and models. From U.S. domestics to European Saloons.

» More about our Automotive Communities

Marine Communities

Our Marine websites focus on Cruising and Sailing Vessels, including forums and the largest cruising Wiki project on the web today.

» More about our Marine Communities


Copyright 2002- Social Knowledge, LLC All Rights Reserved.

All times are GMT -7. The time now is 15:15.


Google+
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2016, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Social Knowledge Networks
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2016, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.

ShowCase vBulletin Plugins by Drive Thru Online, Inc.