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Old 17-11-2013, 01:25   #3091
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Re: LiFePO4 Batteries: Discussion Thread for Those Using Them as House Banks

Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe Parklane View Post
"Sorry Dave, after much soul searching to find a better term, all I can say is that is CRAP"

I resent your statement as an uneducated assessment of what MY experience is/was with my LFeP bank installation. My assessment is based purely on a ROI (return on investment) factual analysis in my situation. That may be "crap" for you but not for me. I am not a boat designer builder nor are most recreational cruisers. The "redesign" of my boat's electrical systems and add-on of custom made uniquely source control components by a high end electrician/engineer added layers of costs to the install that turned the ROI up side down as compared to remaining with high end agm batteries such as lifeline or Northstar which would have been a direct swap out. I am a full time live aboard with 32,000 mile under the keel but am not an electrician or electrical engineer. I am sure that there are many others in a similar situation. I responded to a request with regard to my personal experience for an assessment of my experience and did so factually and honestly. If that is "crap" the quality of contributions to this forum have decayed.
Joe,
With all respect, I was NOT addressing your situation so resent away but please resent me based on what I WAS addressing, which was the statement I quoted. re. 'professional tech only'.
If the direction of quotation marks cannot be recognised, then maybe your last sentence is sadly true, though I see you managed to quote me without referring to my subject matter and somehow transferring it to your post.
Mac
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Old 17-11-2013, 02:36   #3092
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Re: LiFePO4 Batteries: Discussion Thread for Those Using Them as House Banks

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Originally Posted by goboatingnow View Post
you miss my point. A professional is someone in my book that studies the science , understand the issues from first principles and can apply that knowledge to install systems in the real world and understands how to apply the science to that real world , from different system to different system.

Whether that person has degrees , of a fancy title, or is some guy on his own in a boat is irrelevant. To me a DIY person, is someone who copies others using his own abilities , the outcomes vary, but are often poor. its the IKEA of boat wiring.

Li at this present requires an understanding of the science, it requires a considered approach and a reasonable grasp of the electronic practicalities. it requires an understanding of how to takes generalised scientific knowledge and apply it to the specifics of the job in hand.

Lead acid, does not, why because the systems, understanding and support structures are there to allow a good DIY person to install a system without too much understanding of whats going in, LI is not at this time in that situation

dave
Dave,
To be clear, this is what I read and objected to:-
"That's a very good perspective. Li is not DIY tech , it's professional tech."
Emphasis mine..
As you are, I believe, a professionally qualified person, I thought that statement re. 'Li tech', from a respected and experienced member, was a clear POV that I disagreed with.
Please note, I agree with a lot of what you post where we have common interests and have read with interest what you post in areas we do not.

From what you've written above, you're right we do have different views on what constitutes a 'DIYer' and a 'professional' and therefore a misunderstanding based on that.
I understand a 'professional' is indeed a person with formal qualifications and being employed in a field associated with those qualifications and you have pretty much described what I consider a DIYer above.
ie One without a 'professional' ticket but has studied [researched] and has a considered approach etc.
My definition doesn't allow for those without pertinent qualifications to be 'professional', though 'talented amateurs' doesn't really do some non-professional individuals justice either.
Mate, had you been clearer by adding "in this instance" or something similar, I would not have posted and if I didn't think you could handle it, I would have used a softer technical term.
I seem to have spent way to much time with engineers and have picked up some of their 'professional' jargon.
Strangely enough, I find LA tech to be the more dangerous on every level and it's not just amateurs who wire boats in a lethal manner is it?
Cheers,
Mac
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Old 17-11-2013, 08:31   #3093
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Re: LiFePO4 Batteries: Discussion Thread for Those Using Them as House Banks

For any viable technology, you need a good mix of "white coats" with good science and crusty DIYers who think outside the box. I think this particular thread has an excellent melting pot of participants of various credentials, skill levels, budgets, and agendas.

Even if I seldom agree with a particular poster, I still read every one of his posts---and am better for it. After all, even a broken clock is correct twice a day
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Old 17-11-2013, 08:46   #3094
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Re: LiFePO4 Batteries: Discussion Thread for Those Using Them as House Banks

Mr Wraith,

If you are referring to my posts please be specific as to "what" is not fact. I was very careful to make my posts a "personal" experience based on the "facts"(costs) as they affected me in my unique installation. I do not understand why you would refer to my experience as not factual if that is indeed what you are doing.
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Old 17-11-2013, 09:23   #3095
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Re: LiFePO4 Batteries: Discussion Thread for Those Using Them as House Banks

Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe Parklane View Post
Mr Wraith,

If you are referring to my posts please be specific as to "what" is not fact. I was very careful to make my posts a "personal" experience based on the "facts"(costs) as they affected me in my unique installation. I do not understand why you would refer to my experience as not factual if that is indeed what you are doing.
Joe,

I think you are in very good hands with Charlie.

I don't necessarily feel however that ROI is a fair term to use to define the difference between AGM and a fully custom LiFePO4 bank when discussing up-front installation cost differences.. UFC (up front costs) would be a more fair comparison.


ROI can really only be determined on $ to Ah or $ to Watt Hours that came out of the bank, over the life of the bank, calculated after the cells have died.

In very few instances have I seen any AGM battery survive much beyond 300 cycles to 50%, in a marine application, in the real world. We are already at over 200 cycles to 80% DOD for the majority of the cycles on our LiFePO4 bank and they have shown zero changes....

Up front install costs for a fully custom LiFePO4 bank of 5X AGM, when not DIYing the job, I find to be pretty much in-line....

Your return on investment (ROI) can't really be determined until the Li bank dies...

Without a doubt, if not DIYing a Li bank, it is more expensive, up front... In the end if you compares cycles to $$ I bet the Li still wins even when not DIYing...
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Old 17-11-2013, 09:40   #3096
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Re: LiFePO4 Batteries: Discussion Thread for Those Using Them as House Banks

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Originally Posted by Maine Sail View Post
Joe,

We are already at over 200 cycles to 80% DOD for the majority of the cycles on our LiFePO4 bank and they have shown zero changes....
That is what I've been waiting to hear. Zero changes is a long way from 80% of new capacity which is how they rate cycle life. If they reach 3000 cycles before dropping to 80% capacity and up front costs were 5X for a professional install, then over their life was 1/2 the cost of AGM. I would think a lot of boaters would live with 80% of new capacity for another 1000 cycles which sweetens the ROI even more.
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Old 17-11-2013, 13:16   #3097
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Re: LiFePO4 Batteries: Discussion Thread for Those Using Them as House Banks

If someone is looking for a single cell 100ah Winston: Only up to $89 on ebay right now:
Winston Lithium Yttrium High Power Cell LiFePO4 LIFEYPO4 3 2V 100AH | eBay
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Old 17-11-2013, 13:59   #3098
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Re: LiFePO4 Batteries: Discussion Thread for Those Using Them as House Banks

Quote:
Originally Posted by Maine Sail View Post
Joe,

I think you are in very good hands with Charlie.

I don't necessarily feel however that ROI is a fair term to use to define the difference between AGM and a fully custom LiFePO4 bank when discussing up-front installation cost differences.. UFC (up front costs) would be a more fair comparison.


ROI can really only be determined on $ to Ah or $ to Watt Hours that came out of the bank, over the life of the bank, calculated after the cells have died.

In very few instances have I seen any AGM battery survive much beyond 300 cycles to 50%, in a marine application, in the real world. We are already at over 200 cycles to 80% DOD for the majority of the cycles on our LiFePO4 bank and they have shown zero changes....

Up front install costs for a fully custom LiFePO4 bank of 5X AGM, when not DIYing the job, I find to be pretty much in-line....

Your return on investment (ROI) can't really be determined until the Li bank dies...

Without a doubt, if not DIYing a Li bank, it is more expensive, up front... In the end if you compares cycles to $$ I bet the Li still wins even when not DIYing...
Thanks Maine Sail, I am very aware of how good Charlie is and how good his work is. That is and was never in doubt. My purpose was to point out the cost multipliers to do a redesign install when peripheral hardware is dated and not originally designed for LIs. The devices in my boat that required extensive and costly hours of R&D research and modifications to become compatible with the LIs generated the "upside down (in my lifetime) ROI". The two most troubling devices were the Victron Inverter/chargers and Balmar Alternators. These involved hours of frustrating e-mails and phone calls. Even a Professional of Charlies expertise was frustrated with this, in particular the Victron tech help.. Had I waited 3-5 years by just installing FLA/agms the peripheral technology would have matured so as to greatly reduce the amount of hours intensive R&D that madeup the UFC. Of course the penalty is not enjoying the features of LIs during that wait time.
I firmly believe that LI is the future of batteries, however whether the future is now also involves other individual variables depending upon the individual.
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Old 17-11-2013, 16:30   #3099
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Re: LiFePO4 Batteries: Discussion Thread for Those Using Them as House Banks

Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe Parklane View Post
Mr Wraith,

If you are referring to my posts please be specific as to "what" is not fact. I was very careful to make my posts a "personal" experience based on the "facts"(costs) as they affected me in my unique installation. I do not understand why you would refer to my experience as not factual if that is indeed what you are doing.
Joe, Mr. Parklane,
I will try to make it as simple as possible, I was in no way referring to your posts at all and thought I'd made that clear.
Zip, Zilch, Nada, Nyet reference to you or your unfortunate difficulties.
Did you actually read the post addressed to you that stated:-
"Joe,
With all respect, I was NOT addressing your situation so resent away but please resent me based on what I WAS addressing, which was the statement I quoted. re. 'professional tech only'.
If the direction of quotation marks cannot be recognised, then maybe your last sentence is sadly true, though I see you managed to quote me without referring to my subject matter and somehow transferring it to your post.
Mac " [Emphasis added]

I feel a great deal of sympathy towards your situation but offered NO comment on it until THIS sentence and it is sympathetic not antagonistic.
Again, it was the explicit exclusion of DIYers in Dave's statement, ie the exact language [English] contained in his post that I responded to.
Dave responded and we do indeed have a very different opinion on what constitutes a 'professional' in this area at least.
The two of us communicated 'Points Of View' on that issue alone, your situation or you were NOT addressed or discussed directly or by inference. [read our earlier posts for confirmation]
Between us I hope we [Dave and I] clarified, on-line, our different understanding of terminology and professional status.
Those using search engines to research a Li instal will now see the definition of 'professional' that Dave used and can be more fully informed as to what direction they may wish to take.
If anyone cannot see the importance [to me] of clearing up what may seem a minor matter with Dave [GBW] then the reference to 'search engines' may give a clue to why I did it and would do it again.
Mac
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Old 17-11-2013, 17:14   #3100
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Re: LiFePO4 Batteries: Discussion Thread for Those Using Them as House Banks

Mr. Mac,
I apologize for any misunderstanding. I will read the posts more carefully.
Thank for clearing this up for me.

Joe
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Old 17-11-2013, 17:30   #3101
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Re: LiFePO4 Batteries: Discussion Thread for Those Using Them as House Banks

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Originally Posted by Joe Parklane View Post
Mr. Mac,
I apologize for any misunderstanding. I will read the posts more carefully.
Thank for clearing this up for me.

Joe
Joe,
I'm glad we're on the same plane at last, I sincerely hope you have given the 'gremlins' the kiss off and can just enjoy your cruising.
All the best,
Paul
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Old 17-11-2013, 17:49   #3102
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Re: LiFePO4 Batteries: Discussion Thread for Those Using Them as House Banks

Ahh yes, search engines. That is how I find out about topics I'm interested in, such as sailing and flying. Owning a forum I'm aware many new members first found it via a search engine.

So Paul, I know where your coming from as to how you conduct yourself on a forum and agree.
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Old 19-11-2013, 10:31   #3103
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Re: LiFePO4 Batteries: Discussion Thread for Those Using Them as House Banks

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Hi Everyone,



I have a 600 ah of Sinoploy batteries in two 12volt banks , What would be the best way to fuse them , I know these things can dump huge amounts of current when shorted ,

Regards
Hi Typhoon,
This a good question. I have regular breakers rated to 100Amps on each banks ( 2 in my case), just between the "+" connector and its LVC relay.
Also you should avoid to connect your 2 banks in parralel ( the 1 + 2 battery coupler position). Coupling a fully loaded and near empty bank can blow your wiring -even with 35mm^2 cable and the relays if the banks are not fuse protected. What happened in my bench....

Btw my setup consists of 2 26V/130Ah banks from CALB and Genasun electronics.

Cheer
Gael
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Old 19-11-2013, 12:20   #3104

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Re: LiFePO4 Batteries: Discussion Thread for Those Using Them as House Banks

gael-
Contact the maker and check the ratings on your breakers. Conventional breaker contacts will flash over and weld shut when exposed to some 3500A of current, and breakers that cost $100 *each* will still fail at 5000A of current.
Ah, but your breakers are rated at 100A? That won't help you, because a crowbar short in even a conventional wet lead car battery can exceed 3000A of current, and the breaker will weld shut before it can ever trip.

For primary battery protection, you need either some very expensive breakers rated for the full surge current that the battery can put into a dead short (i.e. a wrench dropped in the battery box) or you need fuses rated for battery primary use, that will blow without exploding or melting down.

There are some threads here on what is suitable, someplace.
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Old 20-11-2013, 06:17   #3105
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Re: LiFePO4 Batteries: Discussion Thread for Those Using Them as House Banks

[QUOTE=hellosailor;1395087]gael-
Contact the maker and check the ratings on your breakers. Conventional breaker contacts will flash over and weld shut when exposed to some 3500A of current, and breakers that cost $100 *each* will still fail at 5000A of current.
Ah, but your breakers are rated at 100A? That won't help you, because a crowbar short in even a conventional wet lead car battery can exceed 3000A of current, and the breaker will weld shut before it can ever trip.

For primary battery protection, you need either some very expensive breakers rated for the full surge current that the battery can put into a dead short (i.e. a wrench dropped in the battery box) or you need fuses rated for battery primary use, that will blow without exploding or melting down.

There are some threads here on what is suitable, someplace.[/QUOTE]

Hi hellosailor,
by regular I means there are "on the shelf" . Sorry for my globish. They have beenn sold as fast trip breaker, to prevent surge.And the cost was 150 .... near the cost of the Tycos relay I have blow up in my bench.
I would just insist on the danger of the 1 + 2 position of many battery coupler. With 2 banks we must have - 1 (exclusive OR) 2 - type of selection. Easy to do with low current -my area- .
For strong currents, after scrating my head, I have selected one switch ON/OFF per bank, with the old fashion T shape red key, and the two "T"s are linked by a 3mm rope which prevent the two T's to be in parrallel position. Far away form my full electronic appraoch...


Anyhow you are rigth and I'll double check with the vendor for the breakers.

best regards
gael
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