LiFePO4 Batteries: Discussion Thread for Those Using Them as House Banks

[goboatingnow]

Originally Posted by Joe Parklane

Sorry, neither of the poll answers are appropriate assessments in my CALB LFPo4s 750amp house bank. There is no short answer as requested by the poll.
How about, "with all you know now would you do this all over again"? My answer is based purely on cost...and the answer is no. However, given I have redundant systems in place to prevent any HVC or LVC event, all alternators are protected by smart regulation that throttles them back vice frame temps, frustrating hours and hours programming my Victron multiplus's with new assistants(software controlling relays) including countless emails and conference calls to Holland with tech to include Vader himself and I installed a multi grove belt to prevent slippage is in place all the above at great expense well beyond multiple LA bank change outs. All this because I know some of which I don't know. I know I am not a DIY'r, but paid for this and some of the RD to do it. LAs I could have done even with my limited knowledge. These are not for novices. I cruise in dread that something will happen and only a very few electricians understand these...so the yellow pages fix is not an option.

That's a very good perspective. Li is not DIY tech , it's professional tech.

Dave

[Wraith_Mac]

Originally Posted by goboatingnow

That's a very good perspective. Li is not DIY tech , it's professional tech.

Dave

Sorry Dave, after much soul searching to find a better term, all I can say is that is CRAP.
I am not a 'professional' as in I do not have an 'office' or electrical qualifications but have been able to produce two working banks and designed two [now in construction] others using very basic automobile/electrical mechanical skills. With no failures!!!
If one can understand basic English, have a basic understanding of using tools, and follow the simple advice now widely available there is no more drama to using LiFePo4 than using LA of any format.
It is slightly different, as is gel or AGM to FLA [Golf carts] but certainly not as difficult as some would have it.
I most certainly would use a professional to redesign my boats total electrical system but to add LiFePo4, as above, no big deal.
These unsubstantiated scare tactics totally PMO, no DIYer is the same as the unskilled PAYG boater and deserve some credit not dissuasion.
Mac

[SV Sea Monkey]

OK, just a bystander chiming in here (no LiFePO 4 me, at least not yet)--but this forum is what has removed a lot of the mystery of Li for me, and taken it from the "leave it to the professionals" arena into the "I would give that a shot myself" world. Kudos to all the early adopters who have shared their expertise, and I do still understand that it's not an off-the-shelf drop-in replacement for more established/accepted technologies yet.

[I.Grind]

But it sure seems to be getting close.

[transmitterdan]

Originally Posted by Wraith_Mac

Sorry Dave, after much soul searching to find a better term, all I can say is that is CRAP.
:
:
These unsubstantiated scare tactics totally PMO, no DIYer is the same as the unskilled PAYG boater and deserve some credit not dissuasion. Mac

Mac,

Why do you think it important to sway people to try LiFePo? And I don't see where Dave or anyone else has denigrated the DIYers that have done the conversion. To the contrary those that have done it are looked up to as far as I can tell.

To suggest that anyone with third grade reading skills can do it is not reality IMO.

Dan

[Joe Parklane]

"Sorry Dave, after much soul searching to find a better term, all I can say is that is CRAP"

I resent your statement as an uneducated assessment of what MY experience is/was with my LFeP bank installation. My assessment is based purely on a ROI (return on investment) factual analysis in my situation. That may be "crap" for you but not for me. I am not a boat designer builder nor are most recreational cruisers. The "redesign" of my boat's electrical systems and add-on of custom made uniquely source control components by a high end electrician/engineer added layers of costs to the install that turned the ROI up side down as compared to remaining with high end agm batteries such as lifeline or Northstar which would have been a direct swap out. I am a full time live aboard with 32,000 mile under the keel but am not an electrician or electrical engineer. I am sure that there are many others in a similar situation. I responded to a request with regard to my personal experience for an assessment of my experience and did so factually and honestly. If that is "crap" the quality of contributions to this forum have decayed.

[amarf]

Very interesting reading! I have a plan to cruise the world in 4 years and battery management is high om my priority list. I'm attending METS marine Trade show next week and I'm wondering if there are any producers with more or less out of box solutions,...I'll post it here if something intetesting...

[Maine Sail]

Originally Posted by Joe Parklane

"Sorry Dave, after much soul searching to find a better term, all I can say is that is CRAP"

I resent your statement as an uneducated assessment of what MY experience is/was with my LFeP bank installation. My assessment is based purely on a ROI (return on investment) factual analysis in my situation. That may be "crap" for you but not for me. I am not a boat designer builder nor are most recreational cruisers. The "redesign" of my boat's electrical systems and add-on of custom made uniquely source control components by a high end electrician/engineer added layers of costs to the install that turned the ROI up side down as compared to remaining with high end agm batteries such as lifeline or Northstar which would have been a direct swap out. I am a full time live aboard with 32,000 mile under the keel but am not an electrician or electrical engineer. I am sure that there are many others in a similar situation. I responded to a request with regard to my personal experience for an assessment of my experience and did so factually and honestly. If that is "crap" the quality of contributions to this forum have decayed.

I for one would love to get some specifics on your bank, design parameters, cost and how ROI has been determined. Is your bank already dead?

[Joe Parklane]

Maine Sail that is a pertinent and legitimate request. I will attempt to attach several files related to the install of my bank.

This install was not a DIY but was to be as bullet proof as possible. It was designed and installed as such by a licensed ABYC master electrician/engineer on an hourly fee basis. It has performed without incident over the past 7 months of use and the cells in the bank deviate only .04 volt. The benefit has been rapid charging and minimal voltage sag when discharging.
Cost multipliers above just a simple battery to battery cost were:
-rewire battery cabling to include solenoid isolation relay to disconnect bank in the event of a HVC or LVC event as detected by the BMS and cell monitor boards.
-assemble and wire in place the custom BMS circuit board, cell monitor boards and remote status panel.
-build install a new battery box.
-balance and cycle cell in the shop prior to install.
-replaced both Balmar MC 612 smart regulators and center fielder 1 with MC-614 and center fielder 2 with alternator frame sensors to throttle back alternator out put as frame temperature increases. (necessitated by the failure burning up of one alternator upon testing charging)
-sourcing and adding a serpentine pulley kits on both engine necessitated by belt slip (causing extra heat) as alternators were at maximum output on one single v belt.
-many hours of billable time to research and re-program the Victron Multipluse 3000 inverter/chargers with the new firmware and assistants developed by Victron for LFPs. This was finally accomplished by Vader Mathias remotely controlling the boat's computer program from Holland. This process took two separate days to accomplish.

The sourced Calb batteries were the same per item cost as an equal Northstar thin plate pure lead AGM battery. Comparing the life cycle amp hours of those two is heavily weighted to the LFP04 if only using the battery to battery cost. However, for a "non" do it yourself " cruiser like me this install required hiring a high end electrician to install and integrated these into my unique electrical setup.
All the add on equipment and install hours escalated the cost well beyond a simple agm battery replacement. This cost was greater by an order of magnitude 5 times just replacing the agms, which I could have done myself. In others words, if my style of cruising didn't need the performances unique to the LFeP04s (more rapid charging, lighter weight, smaller footprint, deeper depth of usable discharge, higher charge acceptance, low voltage sag, greater discharge life cycles) pragmatically, it would have been simpler and a whole lot cheaper to have stayed with the AGMs.

[senormechanico]

Joe,
If your LI's last five times as long as AGM's (and I'm confident they will) you will have crossed the ROI barrier AND have had the benefits of negligible sag etc the whole time.

THAT ought to change your mind about LI's (and I'm confident it will).

[ColdEH]

Hi Everyone,

going to installing the LI battery bank in the spring, I just had my gen-set running and checked what Echo Tec had done with my regulator, I sent it to them to get it adjusted for Lithium Ion.
What I got back was a adjustable cut-off output alternator from 11.5 volts to 15 volts with a voltage sensing lead . And it works great. !

I have a 600 ah of Sinoploy batteries in two 12volt banks , What would be the best way to fuse them , I know these things can dump huge amounts of current when shorted ,

Regards

[Joe Parklane]

I'm sorry if you misunderstand me. I do not dislike LI's. It is just in my case, I should have waited for the LI market in integrated devices to mature more and offer a more affordable and simpler conversion. As far as realizing a positive ROI, I will not live that long...unless I defy the actuarial aging tables for person like me...so the next owner might.

[ardoin]

I'm loving my LiFePO4s. I can go several days on the hook and still have power to spare. In warm weather, I can stay out for 5 days, in the winter about 3 days (the heater takes a bit of power). It was a DIY project for me and with proper planning, a few upgrades and adjustments to chargers, monitors, regulators, etc. it was relatively straight forward. As a result I have three times the usable power and less weight. My boat floats 3/4 inches higher in the water thanks to the removal of many 8D and 4D AGMs. I'm using HVC/LVC and emergency cut offs for two banks (house and starter).
The only problem I have, that I have not fixed, is the Hitachi 55Amp alt that wants to over charge the starter bank, I have a temporary solution but will have to look into adjusting the Hitachi or replacing it.

[goboatingnow]

Originally Posted by Wraith_Mac

Sorry Dave, after much soul searching to find a better term, all I can say is that is CRAP.
I am not a 'professional' as in I do not have an 'office' or electrical qualifications but have been able to produce two working banks and designed two [now in construction] others using very basic automobile/electrical mechanical skills. With no failures!!!
If one can understand basic English, have a basic understanding of using tools, and follow the simple advice now widely available there is no more drama to using LiFePo4 than using LA of any format.
It is slightly different, as is gel or AGM to FLA [Golf carts] but certainly not as difficult as some would have it.
I most certainly would use a professional to redesign my boats total electrical system but to add LiFePo4, as above, no big deal.
These unsubstantiated scare tactics totally PMO, no DIYer is the same as the unskilled PAYG boater and deserve some credit not dissuasion.
Mac

you miss my point. A professional is someone in my book that studies the science , understand the issues from first principles and can apply that knowledge to install systems in the real world and understands how to apply the science to that real world , from different system to different system.

Whether that person has degrees , of a fancy title, or is some guy on his own in a boat is irrelevant. To me a DIY person, is someone who copies others using his own abilities , the outcomes vary, but are often poor. its the IKEA of boat wiring.

Li at this present requires an understanding of the science, it requires a considered approach and a reasonable grasp of the electronic practicalities. it requires an understanding of how to takes generalised scientific knowledge and apply it to the specifics of the job in hand.

Lead acid, does not, why because the systems, understanding and support structures are there to allow a good DIY person to install a system without too much understanding of whats going in, LI is not at this time in that situation

dave

[Wraith_Mac]

Originally Posted by transmitterdan

Mac,

Why do you think it important to sway people to try LiFePo? And I don't see where Dave or anyone else has denigrated the DIYers that have done the conversion. To the contrary those that have done it are looked up to as far as I can tell.

To suggest that anyone with third grade reading skills can do it is not reality IMO.

Dan

Dan,
Please re-read the quote I disagree with and why.
I didn't specify "third grade reading skills", you also forget to mention the other skills I specified which indicate a skill level above that.
What I see as important is that anyone who is considering ANY sort of battery technology get presented with facts, not misinformation.
I also have an aging FLA bank, app 1800AH mentioned a few times already, doing sterling service and KNOW FLA isn't 'Plug and Play' either, why that term is ever used for just LiFePo4 is unreasonable.
I REALLY don't care what battery type anyone else uses and do not have a mission to convert anyone, I just like to hear critiques based on fact and the opinion I objected to is obviously NOT fact.
Cheers,
Mac