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Old 03-03-2013, 01:29   #2191
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Re: LiFePO4 Batteries: Discussion Thread for Those Using Them as House Banks

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Originally Posted by daddle View Post
Prime time is television terminology referring to mediocre entertainment and expensive advertising. Does it apply to LFP as house battery banks?
Why Yes,

It seems you have a Q, but still belive it's worth your time.

To me ready for prime time = ready to displace the average battery bank for the average JOE boat owner.

I have 2 owners that I have set up, and it's working. I Also have 2 owners, that I saaaaaid no way, about a year ago.

NOW they want me to come back and consult. They are having problems.

Lloyd
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Old 03-03-2013, 01:32   #2192
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Re: LiFePO4 Batteries: Discussion Thread for Those Using Them as House Banks

What do you mean by prime time, exactly? I looked it up and got nowhere...
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Old 03-03-2013, 01:35   #2193
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Re: LiFePO4 Batteries: Discussion Thread for Those Using Them as House Banks

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What do you mean by prime time, exactly? I looked it up and got nowhere...
For the moment, I'll just assume you replied without reading my post.

L
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Old 03-03-2013, 01:50   #2194
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Re: LiFePO4 Batteries: Discussion Thread for Those Using Them as House Banks

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For the moment, I'll just assume you replied without reading my post.

L
Just looked it up in wiki

As a jocular reference, the phrase “not ready for prime time” has come to mean “not quite perfected”.[1]

By the way, you may find it interesting that the noun phrase “prime time” is very old, hundreds of years older than television, according to the Oxford English Dictionary.

People who say “it was not ready for prime-time” think they are implying the following:
You are my customer, and as such, I care about the quality of my output that I share with you. I’d never want to give you something below standards, so I will tell you that what I have to share is just not ready for the level of quality you deserve.
But ironically, this not always what the other person hears in your response. Let me share elements of the scenarios I encountered. One was in the Open Source community (between two companies) and the other was within one management chain (a work team).

The community situation played out like this: An Open Source project is being driven by a small company who leverages the project for commercial opportunity. Another company uses the code and contributes to the project on occasion. Recently the project introduced breaking changes that caused some problems with the code; and these were eventually fixed. But in the course of the conversation a community member asked the sponsoring company — “It seems that you had a roadmap of project changes that was not published to the community. Why didn’t you share it with us?” and was responded with: “Yes, we have another roadmap that we are working on, and we would have shared it with but it was not ready for prime time.”

or

"ce logiciel n'est décidément pas prêt pour le Grand Soir"
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Old 03-03-2013, 01:54   #2195
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Re: LiFePO4 Batteries: Discussion Thread for Those Using Them as House Banks

Assume your readers really cannot know what you are asking. Is your average Joe boat owner expected to specify, design, procure, install, diagnose, maintain and operate the system? Can your average Joe do that with an LA battery? Or, is your average Joe boat owner only expected to operate a factory-installed system with proper documentation, say in a charter boat.

Are you interested in an answer, or just advertising your skills? The question seems to have been changed into a promotion of your skills.
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Old 03-03-2013, 02:22   #2196
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Re: LiFePO4 Batteries: Discussion Thread for Those Using Them as House Banks

Cette impression est peut-être personnelle mais...Il me semble en effet que nos expressions françaises ne font pas aussi facilement et aussi souvent référence au monde de la télévision, du cinéma et des médias que les expressions anglo-saxones. Si bien que parler du "Grand soir" pour un logiciel, parait peu naturel...
Peut-être,tout bêtement "Il ne tient pas encore la route" ?
Je ne sais pas si on peut employer une expression "plus colorée" dans ce contexte, à moins de choisir un ton "décalé". J'avoue que toutes les expressions "colorées" qui me viennent à l'esprit ne conviendraient pas du tout dans ce contexte.
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Old 03-03-2013, 02:26   #2197
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Re: LiFePO4 Batteries: Discussion Thread for Those Using Them as House Banks

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Are you interested in an answer, or just advertising your skills? The question seems to have been changed into a promotion of your skills.
My skills have nothing to do with it.

I DON"T SELL ANYTHING ON THIS FORUM OR ANY OTHER FORUM. or the internet, for that matter.

I am looking for the answers just like everyone else.

When I have those then I can interact with my customers.

Lloyd
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Old 03-03-2013, 07:25   #2198
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Re: LiFePO4 Batteries: Discussion Thread for Those Using Them as House Banks

FlyingCloud-
I am an early adapter by nature but I honestly believe that an LFP bank is "ready for prime time" for some clients.

That said, there are some clients that I would try to dissuade from installing any high end battery because they just do not have the technical understanding to operate and maintain it properly. These clients do not understand the nuances involved with charge acceptance rate, float charge, equalizing, Peukert, etc., etc.; and they do not want to.

I have clients that have a difficult time having a conversation using the terms "amps", "amp-hrs", "watts", "watt-hrs" and "volts" correctly. I constantly hold "school of the boat" sessions to try and upgrade their knowledge.

So, are LFP cells ready as drop in replacements for the boater with a 26' Catalina that has a 4D that he has to replace every year because he forgot or does not care to maintain it. No, LFPs are not for him. For those clients that have taken the time to become technically competent to operate and maintain a modern pleasure vessel, ask intelligent questions and listen to the answers/explanations. Yes, LFPs would be a good fit.

IMHO, LFPs are to marine batteries what the introduction of fiberglass to the boat building was to wood. They are that big of a game changer.
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Old 03-03-2013, 07:38   #2199

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Re: LiFePO4 Batteries: Discussion Thread for Those Using Them as House Banks

daddle, that you have trouble understanding colloquial Colonial, just goes to show how poorly we invest in our war prizes and how quickly we lose interest in them. Japan, Puerto Rico, the Phillipines...we're almost as bad at imperialism as the Vikings were! (They sacked, burned, pillaged, conquered, every corner of their known world but never bothered even trying to retain dominion over it. They just weren't interested in dominion.)

But you do raise an interesting point with your quaint misunderstanding of "prime time". Frankly I've never seen a storage battery of ANY type that was as entertaining as the worst episode of Gilligan's Island, so by your own chosen standard of mediocre entertainment, these batteries simply are not ready for prime time.

Try it. Spend two hours (prime time centers around 8-10PM) sitting in front of your battery bank watching it. Now go stretch your legs, get a cold drink, and try sitting in front of two hours of Gilligan's Island, or McHale's Navy. Tell us which one was more entertaining.

None of the vendors offers cute clueless redheads...well, no, some of them have clueless people of all kinds on staff...but none of them have coconut bikinis, either. Definitely, not ready for prime time.

Which means, you would not want the fate of your business to depend on putting this out as your best product, to your most valuable audience. Not ready for prime time.

With TV you are selling entertainment, that's your product. With batteries, you are selling power storage. The product itself doesn't matter, it could be salt dried cod in a Portuguese market and still be the same. Prime time is simply your most important sales opportunity, it is the time and space where your shouk or bazaar does the most business with the most important clients, whoever they might be.

And given time-shifting, VCRs, TiVo...Prime Time is also an endangered concept.
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Old 03-03-2013, 07:43   #2200
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Re: LiFePO4 Batteries: Discussion Thread for Those Using Them as House Banks

It's interesting how quickly 400 700 and even 1000 amp cells get sold out. Europe has run out and ev power are unsure when their next consignment are arriving, there's something strange going on with supply.

Now i'm dealing with a seller from China that uses a European Website to get interest BUT the stock is flown in.

The Balquon's clearance came and went but has stock been replaced?

Not sure if demand is the issue causing shortages or there's other reasons.
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Old 03-03-2013, 07:50   #2201

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Re: LiFePO4 Batteries: Discussion Thread for Those Using Them as House Banks

Charlie-
I would say that the lithium battery technoligies, all of them, are right now in about the same state that horseless carriages were around 1900.

Consider: No one has quite figured out whether they need a flagman walking in front of them. Or a chauffer to light the boiler on the steam models. Or that pesky hand crank on the internal combustion models. And you know, some folks say the steamers blow up, even though no one has ever documented that. Then there's the way they scare the carriage horses, that's outright dangerous. And any fool can buy one, I heard some folks talking about making rules for drivers to be tested and licensed and to make them provide insurance against their boilers blowing up, or panicking the horses.
Of course it sure is nice not to have to shovel horse **** out of the barn or off the curb everywhere you go, but with that stinky kerosene, or maybe the boiler blowing up, and you know, when I'm drunk the HORSE still knows how to get me home...

Yah, those horseless carriages aren't quite ready for prime time. A hundred years later we're still unraveling the kinks and mistakes, maybe battery technology will do that faster.

And just like the way that carmakers slandered each other and used FUD to push sales...isn't it funny how each lithium maker says they've got the only uniquely safe or effective product? These guys need to send an intern out to Marketing 101: If you slam the competition often enough, everyone loses sales.
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Old 03-03-2013, 09:49   #2202
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Re: LiFePO4 Batteries: Discussion Thread for Those Using Them as House Banks

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Originally Posted by FlyingCloud1937 View Post
To me ready for prime time = ready to displace the average battery bank for the average JOE boat owner.

I have 2 owners that I have set up, and it's working. I Also have 2 owners, that I saaaaaid no way, about a year ago.

NOW they want me to come back and consult. They are having problems.

Lloyd

Lloyd,

I am confused. On 1/17/2013 you said this:

Quote:
Originally Posted by FlyingCloud1937 View Post
Downunder and everyone else.

First I have 30 years experience in the Marine and marine Electrical arena. I grew up as a Marina Owners kid.

I have had a boat/yacht most of my adult life. I design on-board power systems as a business.

I don't spec anything for another yacht that I wouldn't use on my own.

I want to see and expect that the Li technology will mature into an aspect that I can spec for my customers...it's just not there today.

I appreciate all of you early adopters because you help pave the way. But each and everyone of you are not in complete agreement or or only following another's lead.

Insurance is not a red hearing neither for the yacht owner nor the installer.

I have seen many an issue not even involving an experimental technology have look and read here https://www.google.com/#hl=en&tbo=d&...w=1251&bih=653

research Li here https://www.google.com/search?q=life...w=1251&bih=653

My point is your are breaking the trail and early adopters are the beta testers whom bare most of the costs.

I happy to sit on the sidelines and cheer on the early adopters so that I don't have to bear the costs to reach a mature industry.

My own out of pocket cost will be lower, and my liability exposure will be less as well.


Lloyd
I took that to mean you've not yet stepped into Li designs and installations but maybe I misinterpreted it. Are you saying that in the last month +/- you've now installed 2 Li systems?

It would be great if you could share with us your Li installs and how you executed them. That is what this thread is about, sharing what we know.......
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Old 03-03-2013, 10:01   #2203
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Re: LiFePO4 Batteries: Discussion Thread for Those Using Them as House Banks

Ok,

Now,

Who really thinKs these bats are ready for prime time?

Why are they?

Why are they NOT?

Lloyd



I know what he means and the answer is YES.

Why,
1) Clean, no corrosion issues
2) No gassing or acid spills
3) Can be mounted in any position
4) Very little voltage sag under heavy loads
5) Very conservative a-hr ratings
6) Cycle life longer than some of us will live
7) Excellent charge acceptance
8) Very little voltage drop over entire discharge range
9) 80% DOD
10) Cheaper over time than any other battery.
11) Gives you early adopter status on a technology that in the future all will be using.
13) Allows you to contribute to this thread of 2191 posts.
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Old 03-03-2013, 10:23   #2204
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Re: LiFePO4 Batteries: Discussion Thread for Those Using Them as House Banks

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Originally Posted by Lagoon4us View Post
It's interesting how quickly 400 700 and even 1000 amp cells get sold out. Europe has run out and ev power are unsure when their next consignment are arriving, there's something strange going on with supply.

Now i'm dealing with a seller from China that uses a European Website to get interest BUT the stock is flown in.

The Balquon's clearance came and went but has stock been replaced?

Not sure if demand is the issue causing shortages or there's other reasons.
The production capacity in China is many times larger than the production rate, so demand would not be the reason. I suspect we may be about to see a new generation with slightly improved performance.
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Old 03-03-2013, 10:31   #2205
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There is a discussion about the ongoing issues of Winston Chung, a key player for both Winston Battery and Balqon here:

http://www.diyelectriccar.com/forums...ing-77414.html

Not sure if that has anything to do with the supply or not, but may?
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