LiFeP04, your complete system cost

[evm1024]

$2400 for 700 AH.

$300 BMS, csll boards, Tyco contactor, wire etc....

[john61ct]

Originally Posted by evm1024

$2400 for 700 AH.

$300 BMS, csll boards, Tyco contactor, wire etc....

Sources please?

[evm1024]

Originally Posted by john61ct

Sources please?

Straight from Balqon back in 2014. No help today....

House power BMS. Also no help there. I do have 4 of the 3.8 v cell boards extra....

[CatNewBee]

Originally Posted by evm1024

Straight from Balqon back in 2014. No help today....

House power BMS. Also no help there. I do have 4 of the 3.8 v cell boards extra....

No big deal, BMS are interchangeable if external of the battery (battery built from cells), so if one suppliers is gone from the market and the BMS dies, you still can use the cells with a new BMS, the solenoids can be used too, maybe you'll need an interface to adapt the required signals for them (static voltages or impulses, switch on high or on low).

But you have spare parts, so no problem at all. How often did you needed the vendor's help in the last 4 years?

[arsenelupiga]

i am in detailed research & test mode and for 400 AH LFP expect to pay just under AUD 4000. To replace gel 480 AH with same batteries cost 2600 AUD.

[FLYSolartech-GiocoSolutions]

Originally Posted by mbartosch

€2600 for 400 Ah @12V (Winston 100 Ah cells)
€300 for BMS, buses, contactors
€200 for various installation material

What BMS did you have?

[mbartosch]

Originally Posted by FLYsolartech

What BMS did you have?

It‘s a House Power BMS, however the vendor is no longer in the market.
Details in Part 2 and 3 of Design and Implementation on
https://www.entropypool.de/engineering/

[arsenelupiga]

Originally Posted by mbartosch

It‘s a House Power BMS, however the vendor is no longer in the market.
Details in Part 2 and 3 of Design and Implementation on
https://www.entropypool.de/engineering/

thats complicated solution. does it need to be that way?

I plan manual switch for alternators charging LFP path and will be off by default. Used only when solar or cristec charging not viable which i expect almost never.

[44'cruisingcat]

Originally Posted by arsenelupiga

i am in detailed research & test mode and for 400 AH LFP expect to pay just under AUD 4000. To replace gel 480 AH with same batteries cost 2600 AUD.

You can get 400 AH LFP for less than that. Google EV works.

[mbartosch]

Originally Posted by arsenelupiga

thats complicated solution. does it need to be that way?



I plan manual switch for alternators charging LFP path and will be off by default. Used only when solar or cristec charging not viable which i expect almost never.

I don‘t say it has to be this way. It‘s the way I designed our solition, and it works well for me.
Your requirements will be different so you will have to design your solution to fit your needs.

[Username25]

It's worth checking out EMUS BMS https://emusbms.com and REC BMS http://www.rec-bms.com

It should be possible to get cells directly from Winston https://winston-battery.org

[Maine Sail]

400Ah Prismatic LFP Bank - Late 2010 Pricing:

4 X 400Ah Winston Cells = $1032.00
Shipping Cells = $250.00
Tyco EV200 Contactor = $79.00
House Power BMS Control Board = $75.00
BMS Cell Boards = $54.00
Aluminum for end plates/cell compression = $64.00
3/8" Polycarbonate = $27.00
Anodizing of Aluminum Case = $60.00 (minimum charge)
Nuts, Bolts, Threaded Rod, Washers etc. = $12.80
Bus Bar = $4.80 (Blue Sea)
Switches, Alarm Buzzer, BMS case etc. $44.00
Terminals = $9.50
High Voltage Cut Relays $24.00
Total Materials (my cost) = $1731.60
Total at current cell pricing $2704.10

Things I already had (from lead days) that others may not:

Balmar Regulator for alternator = $$$
Solar or wind controller with fully adjustable voltage parameters = $$
Class T fuse = $
Benchtop DC Power Supply - 30A minimum (for balancing the cells) = $$$
HO alternator with serpentine pulley kit = $$$$$$


We use our capacity to 80% DOD or about 315 - 320Ah's before charging. Usable Ah's cost us $5.49 per Ah. If you factor in current cell pricing that makes it; $8.58 per usable Ah.. Usable Ah's is only a small portion of the cost equation and cycle life is a critical component.

We initially wanted high acceptance/fast charging and a battery that holds voltage under load well, in a lead acid battery. I was leaning towards Odyssey TPPL's at that point in time but had been studying LFP since about 2008. Firefly was not yet out so the EnerSys TPPL was our potential choice.


4 - 100Ah Odyssey PCM2150's for a 400Ah AGM bank = $1613.44
(Just batteries I am not including the hold downs in that price just the batteries)


Claimed Lab Cycles
Odyssey Cycled at 80% DOD = 400 Lab Cycles

Winston LiFePO4 at 80% DOD = 2000 Cycles (Today they claim 3000)

$$ Per Cycle Odyssey = $4.03 per cycle (@ 400)

$$ Per Cycle LiFePO4 = $0.86 per cycle (@ 2000)

Today the cells are 9 years old and are zeroing in on 1100 cycles, most of which went all the way to 80% DOD. Some went to 90% DOD and a couple times I let them go all the way to zero. At 0% SOC, just for the sake of experimenting, I started the 44HP diesel 10 times, back to back, without so much as a hint of a struggle.



The cells have been capacity tested to 0% SOC every 50 cycles to track performance. These 2009 cells are still delivering well over 400Ah's or no perceptible change in capacity.

$$ Per Cycle LiFePO4 = $1.57 per cycle (@ *1100 / 80% DOD Cycling) *Actual cycles to 80% DOD
$$ Per Cycle Odyssey = $4.00 per cycle (@ *400 / 80% DOD)
*These batteries would likely never deliver 400 cycles in the real world yet even using lab data they still cost more than we spent on LFP actual cycles to lab cycles.
Our LiFePO4 bank has shown no signs of any degradation and still exceeds the 400Ah rating even closing in on 1100 cycles.

[Dockhead]

You guys are including the capital expense of converting your electrical system to be able to take lithium, including the BMS. But these are not consumable items -- they can be reused for the next set of cells just like all the old system designed for lead can be reused when you change batteries.



I think you should compare consumables -- cells vs. lead batteries. Then you can see whether the capital expense of converting is worth it or not. This expense will vary a lot from boat to boat.

[Simi 60]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

You guys are including the capital expense of converting your electrical system to be able to take lithium, including the BMS. But these are not consumable items -- they can be reused for the next set of cells just like all the old system designed for lead can be reused when you change batteries.



I think you should compare consumables -- cells vs. lead batteries. Then you can see whether the capital expense of converting is worth it or not. This expense will vary a lot from boat to boat.

Some also seem to be comparing expensive american made agm batteries with Chinese made LP4

My comparison using Chinese made tbb agm bought from a major Victron wholesaler in Australia.


https://www.evworks.com.au/winston-400ah-lifepo4-cells

Using the above cells and pricing to get what I have now


LP4 16 x $720 to get 800ah @ 24v = $11520
Vs
AGM 8 x $420 to get 880ah @ 24v = $3360

From what I have read with LP4 600ah would suffice but that's still $8600

For me we are no where near close yet.
Hopefully one day.

[CatNewBee]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

You guys are including the capital expense of converting your electrical system to be able to take lithium, including the BMS. But these are not consumable items -- they can be reused for the next set of cells just like all the old system designed for lead can be reused when you change batteries.



I think you should compare consumables -- cells vs. lead batteries. Then you can see whether the capital expense of converting is worth it or not. This expense will vary a lot from boat to boat.

It is not about the price, LFP is a different category of energy storage, much more reliable - more cycles - and 10 times higher currents possible while charging and discharging, less loss of energy on cycling and storing. It is not just a another 400Ah battery.

All this advantages come at a price, but on the long run LFP is cheaper than FLA, quality FLA come also with a premium on the price tag.

I am happy, Maine Sail has confirmed this on this last post.

Yes, expensive cells deserve a good BMS for protection. If they were cheap as FLA, no BMS after proper initialization would be an option for a life span of 1000+ Cycles.