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Old 20-01-2017, 08:15   #1
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Li-ion Battery Banks

Has anyone made useful progress selecting a Lithium battery bank?
A enquiry to Tesla was rather worrying. Their "Wall" is not suitable. No explanation given as to why, except that there would be no warranty.

In my profession we don't call that sort of thing horse manure, but something similar.
But seriously this must be the way forward.
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Old 20-01-2017, 08:16   #2
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Re: Li-ion Battery Banks

Several threads around here about successful LiFePO4 installations...

Most of those mention the additional baggage required to get there from here.

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Old 20-01-2017, 08:34   #3
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Re: Li-ion Battery Banks

Maine Sail's a well-respected pioneer, lots of useful stuff here: http://www.pbase.com/mainecruising/lifepo4_on_boats

As well as googling the forums here.

Victron is a leading vendor of off the shelf systems, prepare to pay 5-10x the next cheapest top-shelf chemistry, Lifeline or Firefly AGM.

But if you can make yours last the 10+ years some think is possible the actual cost long-term may actually be less.

DIY can cut those costs in half, but being a pioneer requires LOTS of research, and likely to get the old arrows in the back.

I plan to see LiFePO4 as an expensive hobby for experimenting, in the meantime rely on lead for my bi production house bank, and maybe I'll be informed /experienced enough to put LFP into production when that lead bank is showing its age.

Threads elsewhere: ​http://www.technomadia.com/category/...y/lithium-ion/

http://forum.australia4wd.com/index....-went-lithium/

http://www.fordtransitusaforum.com/c...ponents-6.html
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Old 20-01-2017, 08:47   #4
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Re: Li-ion Battery Banks

I would also think from my brief read of the Tesla powerwall that it is unsuitable for off grid low voltage applications....Just not what the design brief called for.
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Old 20-01-2017, 09:01   #5
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Re: Li-ion Battery Banks

I just ordered 8x200AH cells from Canadian Electric Vehicles Ltd.
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Old 20-01-2017, 09:45   #6
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Re: Li-ion Battery Banks

Is it not as simple as a few LiFP04 batteries and a suitable charger with BMS to manage and balance the cells?

Problem is the cost. 400ah of traditional lead acid or AGM leisure batteries are going to weigh around 120kg and cost 800.

LiFeP04 will weigh half that but cost 4,000. 5 year warranty (on the ones I've seen), so assume that's the life of the battery (MMV) it's 800 a year, or the cost of replacing your lead acid batteries every year.

Would love to see the costs of LiFeP04 come down for all uses not just leisure and automotive, as well as an improvement in chargers for them.
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Old 20-01-2017, 10:15   #7
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Re: Li-ion Battery Banks

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bluebeard View Post
Has anyone made useful progress selecting a Lithium battery bank?
A enquiry to Tesla was rather worrying. Their "Wall" is not suitable. No explanation given as to why, except that there would be no warranty.

In my profession we don't call that sort of thing horse manure, but something similar.
But seriously this must be the way forward.
Did you read the spec sheet for the powerwall before calling?

Because it limits the angle of operation of them to just a few degrees, and the liquid cooling requirements negate the suitability for a rocking vessel. They also use Li-ion batteries that are generally unsuitable for the marine environment, they have a bad habit of catching fire from time to time.

There are some lifepo4 battery banks in use, and while they seem to very extrodinarily well, are not currently suitable for most people. They are not drop in replacements for FLA, and take a lot of time and knowledge to keep from cooking the battery banks.

There are some drop in replacements, but they are extrodinarily expensive, even compared to lifepo banks, and have hit or miss reputations.
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Old 20-01-2017, 10:32   #8
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Re: Li-ion Battery Banks

Quote:
Originally Posted by alctel View Post
I just ordered 8x200AH cells from Canadian Electric Vehicles Ltd.


That's were I got mine , Randy was great to deal with , and he shipped them right to my door

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Old 20-01-2017, 10:41   #9
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Re: Li-ion Battery Banks

Greg, I don't think that LiFePo4 batteries take all that much effort to install and use properly. They do demand that you be knowledgeable in the use and care of them and that you have the proper infrastructure to use them safely. But how many people have we seen on the forum that have destroyed their FLA, AGM or Gel banks and/or their alternators because of ignorance on how to use and care for them? They are just something newer and the threads that I have read from people who have installed and are using them are, for the most part, very complimentary of them.
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Old 20-01-2017, 11:00   #10
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Re: Li-ion Battery Banks

Quote:
Originally Posted by mikedefieslife View Post
Is it not as simple as a few LiFP04 batteries and a suitable charger with BMS to manage and balance the cells?

Problem is the cost. 400ah of traditional lead acid or AGM leisure batteries are going to weigh around 120kg and cost 800.

LiFeP04 will weigh half that but cost 4,000. 5 year warranty (on the ones I've seen), so assume that's the life of the battery (MMV) it's 800 a year, or the cost of replacing your lead acid batteries every year.

Would love to see the costs of LiFeP04 come down for all uses not just leisure and automotive, as well as an improvement in chargers for them.
My 400AH of batteries are costing 2800CAD for the cells. The BMS/ new charger will add some more on top of that, but still a lot less than 4000 sterling. That's LiPo4, not li-ion
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Old 20-01-2017, 11:06   #11
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Re: Li-ion Battery Banks

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Originally Posted by alctel View Post
My 400AH of batteries are costing 2800CAD for the cells. The BMS/ new charger will add some more on top of that, but still a lot less than 4000 sterling. That's LiPo4, not li-ion


I paid 3800 Canadian for my 8x 300ah cells giving me a total of 600 ah on board . That was four years ago , from the same supplier .

Money well spent .

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Old 20-01-2017, 11:15   #12
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Re: Li-ion Battery Banks

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Originally Posted by Stumble View Post
Did you read the spec sheet for the powerwall before calling?

Because it limits the angle of operation of them to just a few degrees, and the liquid cooling requirements negate the suitability for a rocking vessel. They also use Li-ion batteries that are generally unsuitable for the marine environment, they have a bad habit of catching fire from time to time.

There are some lifepo4 battery banks in use, and while they seem to very extrodinarily well, are not currently suitable for most people. They are not drop in replacements for FLA, and take a lot of time and knowledge to keep from cooking the battery banks.

There are some drop in replacements, but they are extrodinarily expensive, even compared to lifepo banks, and have hit or miss reputations.
Doesn't master volt have a fairly straightforward drop in? Are they extraordinarily expensive?
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Old 20-01-2017, 11:39   #13
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Re: Li-ion Battery Banks

Drop-ins are "easier" but have control chips built in that make each vendor's a bit different.

All these "integrated systems" are much more expensive than DIY, and lock you into being more dependent on that one vendor.

But for those that are able and willing to pay extra not to learn the details they do work.
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Old 20-01-2017, 14:41   #14
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Re: Li-ion Battery Banks

I make no claim to expertise and haven't used them. But even the 'drop in' batteries will need a new battery charger from the same manufacturer as the batteries, a new alternator, and if you are running solar a new mppt. Basically every thing that puts power into the batteries need to either be reconfigured or exchanged with something that is acceptable for lifepo

And if you get it wrong in any way the entire bank can be fried and require replacement with just a moments inattention.

Compounded is the issue that even a lot of battery chargers with a lifepo charging profile are wrong, and the factory setting are dangerous.


I may be out of date on this, and new stuff I see always hitting the market. But as I understand it, it simply isn't ready for DIY systems unless you have a very strong background in battery technology, or are willing to spend the time to learn.
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Old 20-01-2017, 14:45   #15
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Re: Li-ion Battery Banks

Quote:
Originally Posted by SV DestinyAscen View Post
Doesn't master volt have a fairly straightforward drop in? Are they extraordinarily expensive?
The drop in Mastervolts are $3,600 for 180ah each. That's roughly two standard deep cell batteries for $100 each.
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