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Old 05-09-2018, 16:35   #46
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Re: LFP - Decline in charge acceptance rate with battery age

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the big issue with the paper is it is all over the chemistry spectrum with no continuity so understand that when reading it
No, much easier to just avoid reading it

What I meant to write here
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Old 05-09-2018, 16:38   #47
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Re: LFP - Decline in charge acceptance rate with battery age

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to 4.0v
Why on earth would you go so high?

Just a science experiment?

I hope - if it was an expensive bank - not on a regular basis.

Or are you just using it on weekend and figure even with a greatly shortened lifespan, it will last long enough anyway?
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Old 05-09-2018, 17:09   #48
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Re: LFP - Decline in charge acceptance rate with battery age

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I don't care if it takes 2-3 hours at absorption to get that last bit into my FLA, I have quiet solar for that. Like I already said, my FLA will take the full charge capability I can supply up 90+% charge. That's enough for me on those days that I am running my generator for charging plus "extras".

Not looking to start a fight. I just don't see the benefit of this "fast" charge except on paper for those that don't make a serious charging capacity upgrade.

Under your circumstances, I can see how LFP doesn't offer you a benefit. But others operate differently. Solar can't cover my daily needs while at anchor. It helps, but I still need to run the generator to recharge. I figure LFP will cut my daily generator time about in half, and that's a win for me and how we cruise.
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Old 05-09-2018, 17:56   #49
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Re: LFP - Decline in charge acceptance rate with battery age

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Under your circumstances, I can see how LFP doesn't offer you a benefit. But others operate differently. Solar can't cover my daily needs while at anchor. It helps, but I still need to run the generator to recharge. I figure LFP will cut my daily generator time about in half, and that's a win for me and how we cruise.
I only have 290w of solar. I normally run the generator for 30-60 minutes and last Nigeria every few days to get a full charge. Looked are increasing the solar, bu5 it was going to Ben 500 plus anchor days to break even on the cost to just run the generator. I wonder how many days these fancy batteries would take.

Iím fine with people liking them, I just quest the benefits
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Old 06-09-2018, 01:38   #50
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Re: LFP - Decline in charge acceptance rate with battery age

As I said, it is not for everybody. There are many cruisers and RVers suffering from regulary replacing FLA banks because of sulphation, cell shorts, boiling batteries, lack of capacity, voltage drops etc.

For those a LFP is a relief.

Some use their gear occasionally on weekends and do not care to replace frequently their FLA. Some even do not use them at all, because the moor most of the time at the dock hooked up to shore.

But there are also people, who really rely 24/7 on their gear off-grid and want huge capacity reserves for bad weather or safety in case solar or generator breaks in remote places.
Some even go further and use electricity for the galley or even worse - for propulsion. This are use cases, where FLA simply fail to deliver, it is only viable on the long run with LFP, and LFP are then not just technically better, lightweight with a higher energy density, but also cheaper over the time.

If you not feel the urge to change to LFP, stay with FLA. As we all have different life styles and opinions, we have different requirements and we value things different.

For us it was worth it to replace a half past dead boiling 440Ah heavy GEL house battery bank with almost same size and weight 1000Ah LiFeYPO4 Winston battery, giving us 5 times more reliable and usable energy and alowing us to ban propane on board. We know and appreciate all the advantages this technology has to offer and we make use of them excessively. We cannot immagine to go back to GEL.
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Old 06-09-2018, 04:45   #51
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Re: LFP - Decline in charge acceptance rate with battery age

Its not a battle aganist me and I'm not battling aganist the super batteries. I expect to outlife my FLA and wish to separate the real use facts from marketing "benefits" before hand. That's all.
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Old 06-09-2018, 04:56   #52
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Re: LFP - Decline in charge acceptance rate with battery age

I am not talking about marketing but about a real use case and experience with both worlds.

While it rips one time a hole in your pocket when investing in that technology, it makes you smile every day using it and asking yourself, why it took you so long to switch and why you have waste money in the past replacing FLA with FLA, running your generator for hours charging them. This could have been better invested in Margharitas as sundowners or beer in a quiet bay.
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Old 06-09-2018, 05:19   #53
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Re: LFP - Decline in charge acceptance rate with battery age

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why it took you so long to switch and why you have waste money in the past replacing FLA with FLA, running your generator for hours charging them.
See I just have to disagree. Seems no matter how many times I post that I don't run my generator for hours to charge my batteries, it keeps getting used as a "benefit".

I have no problem if people who want to change to these LFP batteries, it's their boat and money. But you guys guys haven't convinced me that as an overall boat use system they are enough of a plus for the cost.

BTW, how much DO you run your generator each day? How much did you run it before? If you had FLA before the LFP, did you really run you generator till the batteries were fully charged JUST for charging?
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Old 06-09-2018, 06:55   #54
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Re: LFP - Decline in charge acceptance rate with battery age

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See I just have to disagree. Seems no matter how many times I post that I don't run my generator for hours to charge my batteries, it keeps getting used as a "benefit".



I have no problem if people who want to change to these LFP batteries, it's their boat and money. But you guys guys haven't convinced me that as an overall boat use system they are enough of a plus for the cost.



BTW, how much DO you run your generator each day? How much did you run it before? If you had FLA before the LFP, did you really run you generator till the batteries were fully charged JUST for charging?


It seems agreed that for your use LFP isnít a fit. Thatís fine. But other people use their boats differently, and gain significant benefits from LFP. Most here would have a heart attack looking at our power usage, but itís how we choose to operate. And yes, I do run the generator through most or all of absorb on our AGM. When you run for a month without plugging in, itís needed to not kill your batteries. That turns into probably 6hrs a day total, spread out into typically two runs. Not having to worry about returning the batteries to full charge, and not having to run a gen with light load while the batteries absorb is a big win for us. Not for you, and not for others Iím sure, but itís huge for us.
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Old 06-09-2018, 07:10   #55
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Re: LFP - Decline in charge acceptance rate with battery age

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See I just have to disagree. Seems no matter how many times I post that I don't run my generator for hours to charge my batteries, it keeps getting used as a "benefit".

I have no problem if people who want to change to these LFP batteries, it's their boat and money. But you guys guys haven't convinced me that as an overall boat use system they are enough of a plus for the cost.

BTW, how much DO you run your generator each day? How much did you run it before? If you had FLA before the LFP, did you really run you generator till the batteries were fully charged JUST for charging?
Seems like part of the divide between those who "get" the advantages of Li and those who don't pivots on daily energy consumption influenced by location.

To make my expensive AGM back last the 10 years it did, I tried to avoid drawing them down more than 40%, and tried to fully recharge then whenever possible. That took hours of charge time and more as the bank aged. Since we consume a lot of power daily, and since we cruise mostly on the PNW, solar is unappealing for lots of reasons - where to put that many panels to make a difference, initial cost, etc. So that leaves the genset. To fully recharge the AGMs, it took 6 hours to replace daily consumption. To fully recharge the Li bank, it takes 1.75 hours of genset time. The batteries deliver higher voltage throughout the discharge cycle, which saves motors, electronic equipment, etc. Add to that 5+ times the life over LA batteries and the initial investment is both cost effective and provides a superior usage environment.

BUT, if we weren't energy hogs, AND cruised where a manageable number of panels could top off FLA, a Li bank wouldn't make anywhere near as much sense. But that isn't us, so Lithium is both cheaper in the long term, and provides superior performance. For us.
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Old 06-09-2018, 08:15   #56
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Re: LFP - Decline in charge acceptance rate with battery age

So maybe it isnít about batteries at all. Itís about whether you are a power hog (and itís ok with me if you are).

I thought I was an ďaverageĒ power user. But at a 440ah house bank and someone who uses around 120-150ah/day at anchor maybe somehow Iím a light user for a couple on a 43í boat.

So what Iím reading here is, lfp would be useful if you are a boat that uses a LOT of power a day AND have enough charging capacity to really crank in amps

Is this it in a nutshell?????

Btw - itís been almost 10 months since I was on shorepower. Only been in a slip twice in that time and it wasnít even worth the trouble to plug-in. So not like Iím a dock power hog
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Old 06-09-2018, 08:46   #57
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Re: LFP - Decline in charge acceptance rate with battery age

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So maybe it isnít about batteries at all. Itís about whether you are a power hog (and itís ok with me if you are).

I thought I was an ďaverageĒ power user. But at a 440ah house bank and someone who uses around 120-150ah/day at anchor maybe somehow Iím a light user for a couple on a 43í boat.

So what Iím reading here is, lfp would be useful if you are a boat that uses a LOT of power a day AND have enough charging capacity to really crank in amps

Is this it in a nutshell?????

Btw - itís been almost 10 months since I was on shorepower. Only been in a slip twice in that time and it wasnít even worth the trouble to plug-in. So not like Iím a dock power hog
I think that is on the mark, at least as far as I can tell. Lyn and Larry Pardey cruised for decades without a motor, so I would consider that at one end of the continuum of power usage. On the other are very large yachts that require a genset to run 24 x 7. In between are cruisers like you, who are sensible and thrifty, and cruisers like me, who want living on the boat to have pretty much the same amenities as living on land - all the fresh water we need, freezer, refer, a/c when appropriate, 120 vac lighting, washer/dryer, 120 vac fresh water systems, etc. By way of comparison, we use around 300 amps@24vdc daily and using exactly the same charging equipment we used for our AGM bank can recharge the Li bank at a rate of 200 amps/hour when underway, or 105 amps/hour at anchor. For us, the advantage of Lithium was charge acceptance rate, immunity to problems from PSoC, stable voltage @ 26+. Again for us, Lithium is the cheapest power solution on a per cycle basis, with slightly higher up front cost than replacing the AGM bank with another 12 Northstar batteries that cost $1,086 each.

Different strokes for different folks....
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Old 06-09-2018, 08:57   #58
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Re: LFP - Decline in charge acceptance rate with battery age

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If or when I go LFP, it will be likely Iíll try to stay between 40 and 80% SOC, thereby staying way away from either ďshoulderĒ.
Some of the EV car manufacturers are as conservative, but some seem to push the pack pretty hard, I think Nissan pushes theirs.
Time will tell, but it would seem if your not pushing a Lithium pack that Calendar life is maybe what will get them, they will just age out, not so much wear out.
I worked for Nissan a little under 2 years ago and at that time they kept their electric car between 20-80%. Obviously the consumer didn't know this and the gauge on the car says 100% charged but in reality was only 80%. When I left I know Nissan was talking of expanding the limits to get more range but I don't know if they have since then.
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Old 06-09-2018, 09:00   #59
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LFP - Decline in charge acceptance rate with battery age

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So maybe it isnít about batteries at all. Itís about whether you are a power hog (and itís ok with me if you are).



I thought I was an ďaverageĒ power user. But at a 440ah house bank and someone who uses around 120-150ah/day at anchor maybe somehow Iím a light user for a couple on a 43í boat.



So what Iím reading here is, lfp would be useful if you are a boat that uses a LOT of power a day AND have enough charging capacity to really crank in amps



Is this it in a nutshell?????



Btw - itís been almost 10 months since I was on shorepower. Only been in a slip twice in that time and it wasnít even worth the trouble to plug-in. So not like Iím a dock power hog


That and like the poster above who said we donít want Solar.

Take away your Solar and only leave you with running the generator to charge, and you would think LFP was the second coming. Then throw in we donít want use propane and you have the perfect use case.

Trying to say if you donít have an LFP bank, well then you must be cruising like the Pardeyís is ridiculous.
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Old 06-09-2018, 09:04   #60
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Re: LFP - Decline in charge acceptance rate with battery age

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I worked for Nissan a little under 2 years ago and at that time they kept their electric car between 20-80%. Obviously the consumer didn't know this and the gauge on the car says 100% charged but in reality was only 80%. When I left I know Nissan was talking of expanding the limits to get more range but I don't know if they have since then.


I think they are pushing the bank up into the 90ís now, or so I read.
I know the Prius I have stays between 40 and 80, but it will cycle its bank sometimes several times an hour and not once a day too.

Everytime I read anything about this or that electric car, at the top of the list is itís range, then read down another paragraph and youíll usually read about range anxiety.
So I stand by my statement that range is likely very, very big in electric car marketing.
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