Cruisers Forum
 


Join CruisersForum Today

Reply
 
Thread Tools Rate Thread Display Modes
Old 23-10-2014, 18:52   #46
Registered User
 
Nicholson58's Avatar

Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: Grand Rapids, Michigan
Boat: Camper & Nicholson58 Ketch - ROXY Traverse City, Michigan No.668283
Posts: 3,445
Images: 83
Re: LED Nav Lights

Quote:
Originally Posted by estarzinger View Post
This is what I am using right now: https://cruisingsolutions.com/produc...lour-masthead/

It looks just exactly like the marinebeam (but am not sure if it is), and it says it is "low RF", but it still creates AIS interference.

The next time I pull my mast I am going to install an opto lamp fixture. I have one mounted on top my radar that I tested this summer, and no RF and good durability and features. But I don't plan to pull the mast anytime soon (and don't want to struggle with mounting it with the mast up) and would love a "no rf bulb" in the meantime.
Appears to be the same as my Marine Beam. (post # 7) They say exceeds 3NM. I'd say it makes 5NM on a clear night. Since we only need 2NM I am not worried. I also added peel & stick aluminum reflectors on the black surfaces to enhance the heeled performance. Concern over the angular cut-off lead me to install aluminum dividers. A walk-around at night and casual comments from other sailors says its the brightest '2-mile' light in the marina. Cut-offs are sharp. I use my masthead tri-color at sea. Close in, I switch to purpose built Signal-Mate rail mounted lights. (port stbd, stern). Its good to have installed spares & nobody sees the masthead in close quarters, nor does it mark the ends of your boat. Pair of Port & Starboard 2NM LED Navigation Lights [2NMPTSBSET] - $340.00 : MISEA Group!, Marine Safety Energy Affiliates

I also added an option to switch from the rail mounted stern light to a mizzen mast-top stern light. This is great if some crap happens to wind up on the transom blocking the stern light.
__________________

__________________
Nicholson58 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 23-10-2014, 21:39   #47
Moderator
 
Paul Elliott's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Sep 2006
Posts: 3,383
Images: 2
Re: LED Nav Lights

Quote:
Originally Posted by estarzinger View Post
This is what I am using right now: https://cruisingsolutions.com/produc...lour-masthead/

It looks just exactly like the marinebeam (but am not sure if it is), and it says it is "low RF", but it still creates AIS interference.

The next time I pull my mast I am going to install an opto lamp fixture. I have one mounted on top my radar that I tested this summer, and no RF and good durability and features. But I don't plan to pull the mast anytime soon (and don't want to struggle with mounting it with the mast up) and would love a "no rf bulb" in the meantime.
It'got to be the same unit. Both vendors have the same product ID (TW-1157-AS) and the specs are identical.

That's a bummer about the AIS interference. I wish I had one to test. I am pretty sure that my Marinebeam bi-color is RF-quiet enough to not interfere, but perhaps the bulb filtering or layout isn't as clean as in the complete fixture. Or, perhaps the design is different enough that it matters.

I have an Optolamp tricolor, right next to my masthead VHF antenna, and it puts out zero interference (measured with my spectrum analyzer and by listening to the unsquelched VHF). I believe the Optolamp uses linear regulation, not a switcher.
__________________

__________________
Paul Elliott, S/V VALIS - Pacific Seacraft 44 #16 - Friday Harbor, WA
www.sailvalis.com
Paul Elliott is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 23-10-2014, 22:24   #48
Moderator
 
Dockhead's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: [S]Hamble (Spring and Fall)[/S], Cowes (Winter), Baltic (Summer) (the boat!); somewhere in the air (me!)
Boat: Cutter-Rigged Moody 54
Posts: 16,746
Re: LED Nav Lights

Quote:
Originally Posted by estarzinger View Post
But just to play devil's advocate . . . why? . . . let's say it is an incandescent but not the original brand . . . That might mean that it did not have the same lumens . . . . as the original or burn at the same color. Following your logic why would not some scummy lawyer ( ) force the defendant to prove that his replacement bulb did in fact have exactly the same characteristics as the 'approved' bulb?
Spoken as a "scummy lawyer", the answer is:

The bulb for which the fixture was designed has a particular specification. Say a BAY15D. A BAY15D bulb, to be sold as that, has to have a vertical filament in just a particular place, and that is critical to how the optical part of the fixture works. There will be a certain variation of light output and color for the specified bulb, but the fixture will perform to spec within that range. If you as the boat owner have installed a bulb of the correct specification, then you have fulfilled your duty, and any further claim will be against the bulb maker or the fixture maker, not against you.

If, however, you ignore the specification for the bulb and install something completely different, say a candle, or an LED unit, then you lose the benefit of the certification of the fixture, and in case of an accident, it will be up to you to prove that your non-conforming lights were actually visible. The other guy's scummy lawyers will be all over that like flies on you know what -- that's their big chance to screw you to the wall.

Does that make sense now?

And see Maine Sail's post above. The optical qualities of nav light fixtures are not a joke. LED bulb replacements are actually, practically, really different in their light characteristics, from incandescent bulbs. The optics of our fixtures, designed to focus the light from a filament in one place, may very well not be able to focus light coming from different points all over he surface of an LED bulb replacement. And your nav lights may really not be properly visible, quite apart from the legal side of it.
__________________
Dockhead is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 24-10-2014, 01:02   #49
CF Adviser

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Aug 2009
Boat: Custom Van De Stadt 47 Samoa
Posts: 3,267
Re: LED Nav Lights

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dockhead View Post

The bulb for which the fixture was designed has a particular specification. Say a BAY15D. . . . . If you as the boat owner have installed a bulb of the correct specification, then you have fulfilled your duty, and any further claim will be against the bulb maker or the fixture maker, not against you.

Does that make sense now?.
No, not really. Look at the LED bulb we are talking about above. It is sold as a bay15 replacement bulb, approved by CE, ect. Why should I as a consumer take more liability buying/installing it than an off brand bay15 replacement incandescence? In both cases I am buying a product sold as fit for purpose for my fixture. If they are not actually fit for purpose that's the mfg/distributors fault/liability, not mine.
__________________
www.bethandevans.com
estarzinger is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 24-10-2014, 02:47   #50
Moderator
 
Dockhead's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: [S]Hamble (Spring and Fall)[/S], Cowes (Winter), Baltic (Summer) (the boat!); somewhere in the air (me!)
Boat: Cutter-Rigged Moody 54
Posts: 16,746
Re: LED Nav Lights

Quote:
Originally Posted by estarzinger View Post
No, not really. Look at the LED bulb we are talking about above. It is sold as a bay15 replacement bulb, approved by CE, ect. Why should I as a consumer take more liability buying/installing it than an off brand bay15 replacement incandescence? In both cases I am buying a product sold as fit for purpose for my fixture. If they are not actually fit for purpose that's the mfg/distributors fault/liability, not mine.
Just because it has a BAY15D base, doesn't mean it's a BAY15D bulb. A navigation light is an optical device. It has a lens. The position of the light source is of critical importance to how that lens focuses and distributes the light.

There are other uses of BAY15D bulbs besides nav lights. Do the fixture makers say LED replacements are suitable for nav light fixtures? Nope, they say, for example:

"The bulbs used in Aqua Signal navigation lights form part of its approval / certification. Reserve bulbs must also be approved. In the case of a claim being made on an insurance policy you risk loss of your insurance cover if your equipment does not comply with regulations. In the interest of safety we recommend that you only used approved materials."


Note what someone posted above about Dr. LED failing to get approval for their LED replacement bulbs despite repeated attempts.

So you have been warned by Aquasignal (other fixtures makers have similar or even stronger statements) that their certification is not valid unless approved bulbs are used. You might be able to sue a bulb maker who is dumb enough to sell bulbs as suitable for nav lights, when they aren't certified, but you will still be first in line with liability, as you did not comply with the fixture maker's instructions.
__________________
Dockhead is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 24-10-2014, 03:37   #51
Registered User

Join Date: Aug 2014
Posts: 170
Re: LED Nav Lights

Interesting thread. I have been thinking about going the LED route myself over the winter. The USCG is pretty specific about required testing under UL 1104 or equivalent before approval. The lights or packaging must state that they are approved by the USCG. If you use lights that fall into the approved category, then you have met the standards. Use non approved lights at your own risk.
Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	USCG approved lights.PNG
Views:	108
Size:	75.0 KB
ID:	90243  
__________________
Old Snipe is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 24-10-2014, 05:04   #52
Marine Service Provider
 
Maine Sail's Avatar

Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Maine
Boat: CS-36T - Cupecoy
Posts: 2,902
Re: LED Nav Lights

Quote:
Originally Posted by estarzinger View Post
No, not really. Look at the LED bulb we are talking about above. It is sold as a bay15 replacement bulb, approved by CE, ect. Why should I as a consumer take more liability buying/installing it than an off brand bay15 replacement incandescence? In both cases I am buying a product sold as fit for purpose for my fixture. If they are not actually fit for purpose that's the mfg/distributors fault/liability, not mine.
Evans,


The question for me is; approved by CE for what? Was it tested in your fixture to meet the performance specifications that all nav lights must meet in order to comply with the COLREGS?


This Imtra LED light is also manufactured by Marine Beam, as are the Cruising Solutions bulbs. The back of this package makes it pretty clear where Imtra stands on the use of these bulbs in navigation lights.

How others beyond Imtra market these bulbs may be different but the bottom line is they have not been tested to ensure they meet or don't meet the minimum performance requirements in your fixtures..


As always we should keep in mind that any nav light that actually gets used is better than none. I would much rather see a home made nav light than a boater choosing not to use them due to current draw. In a perfect world I would much prefer not to see pink, blue or cut off angles that confuse me on the water. I was up a spar a couple of years ago and the owner had installed a festoon LED in a Aquasignal steaming light. The LED festoon had apparently vibrated around and was facing backwards in the housing towards the black plastic. It was no longer anywhere close to a navigation light...

With that said plenty of USCG navigation lights, as installed by many boat builders or DIY's, do not meet COLREGS either due to voltage drop, location or physical condition of the fixture or lens. At every boat show I see non-conforming navigation lights as installed so the bulb is not the only issue we face..
__________________
Marine How To Articles
Maine Sail is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 24-10-2014, 05:11   #53
Moderator
 
a64pilot's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Oct 2013
Location: Albany Ga.
Boat: Island Packet 38
Posts: 12,109
Re: LED Nav Lights

I apologize for continuing to use aviation as the example, but it's what I know.
What Dockhead is speaking to, the FAA calls a TSO. You can buy many identical looking parts that will fit and work in your aircraft, but unless they have been shown to meet a TSO etc., they aren't legal. Just being aircraft it's pretty well spelled out.

https://www.faa.gov/aircraft/air_cer...approvals/tso/
__________________
a64pilot is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 24-10-2014, 05:20   #54
Commercial Member
 
CharlieJ's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: St. Petersburg, FL
Boat: Gulfstar Long Range Trawler; 53'; BearBoat
Posts: 815
Re: LED Nav Lights

OMG-Somehow this forum has found another dead horse to beat

Current list:
  1. Anchors
  2. Guns onboard
  3. Pirates
  4. Non-approved LED nav lights
__________________
Charlie Johnson
JTB Marine Corporation
"The Devil is in the details and so is salvation."
CharlieJ is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 24-10-2014, 07:17   #55
Registered User
 
rwidman's Avatar

Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: North Charleston, SC
Boat: Camano Troll
Posts: 3,358
Re: LED Nav Lights

Quote:
Originally Posted by Old Snipe View Post
........... If you use lights that fall into the approved category, then you have met the standards......... ]
Not necessarily. They must also be installed correctly and used correctly. Get the angle wrong and you will be sued to death and your insurance won't cover you. Put them where the are obscured by a dinghy, bimini or passenger and you will be sued to death and your insurance won't cover you.

I am really surprised (no, not really, some folks just like to puff their chests out) that folks will nitpick to no end about "approved" navigation lights while on another thread they are admitting to willfully violating the regulations on keeping a watch while underway by sleeping.

Oh well, it's the Internet. Great for entertainment, not so much for learning.
__________________
Ron
HIGH COTTON
Sent from my laptop using Windows 7
rwidman is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 24-10-2014, 13:38   #56
CF Adviser

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Aug 2009
Boat: Custom Van De Stadt 47 Samoa
Posts: 3,267
Re: LED Nav Lights

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dockhead View Post
Just because it has a BAY15D base, doesn't mean it's a BAY15D bulb.
Ah, I was hoping you would say exactly that . . . . because that was exactly my point about all the BAY15 incandescent store brand bulbs that almost EVERYONE uses. You have NO idea if those actually have the same light characteristics as the (say) aqua signal BAY15. I have seen "BAY15" incandescent's that have all sorts of internal filament structures, some which look very different than the 'single straight vertical filament'. They might be made on the very same production line as the aqua signals, or they might be made by some Chinese guy who realized if he put a marine name and base on some random bulb he could sell them for 10x the price.

Logically I think you can only support two positions here:

#1 would be the tough lawyer position that only an exact same bulb under the exact same brand as the fixture is completely acceptable.

#2 would be the practical 'consumer protection' position that any bulb sold by a reputable outlet as fit for the purpose is acceptable.

You seem to be trying to argue #1 for led's, but #2 for incandescent's, which does not seem consistent or logical to me.

Also, as I said/asked previously, can you provide any court case where this issues has been ruled on, and about found against #2. If not, then I am going to suggest to you that smart people have considered it and found it not worth pursuing legally, because there are A LOT of these replacement bulbs (both leds and incandescent) out there. I asked Beth and BoatUS has zero insurance cases where replacement bulbs were found to be an issue.
__________________
www.bethandevans.com
estarzinger is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 24-10-2014, 14:14   #57
Moderator
 
Dockhead's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: [S]Hamble (Spring and Fall)[/S], Cowes (Winter), Baltic (Summer) (the boat!); somewhere in the air (me!)
Boat: Cutter-Rigged Moody 54
Posts: 16,746
Re: LED Nav Lights

Quote:
Originally Posted by estarzinger View Post
Ah, I was hoping you would say exactly that . . . . because that was exactly my point about all the BAY15 incandescent store brand bulbs that almost EVERYONE uses. You have NO idea if those actually have the same light characteristics as the (say) aqua signal BAY15. I have seen "BAY15" incandescent's that have all sorts of internal filament structures, some which look very different than the 'single straight vertical filament'. They might be made on the very same production line as the aqua signals, or they might be made by some Chinese guy who realized if he put a marine name and base on some random bulb he could sell them for 10x the price.

Logically I think you can only support two positions here:

#1 would be the tough lawyer position that only an exact same bulb under the exact same brand as the fixture is completely acceptable.

#2 would be the practical 'consumer protection' position that any bulb sold by a reputable outlet as fit for the purpose is acceptable.

You seem to be trying to argue #1 for led's, but #2 for incandescent's, which does not seem consistent or logical to me.

Also, as I said/asked previously, can you provide any court case where this issues has been ruled on, and about found against #2. If not, then I am going to suggest to you that smart people have considered it and found it not worth pursuing legally, because there are A LOT of these replacement bulbs (both leds and incandescent) out there. I asked Beth and BoatUS has zero insurance cases where replacement bulbs were found to be an issue.
Sorry, not quite like that.

To have the benefit of certification, the bulb has to be "approved" by the fixture maker, who certifies that it corresponds to what was tested.

If you buy a generic incandescent replacement, you might have to prove that it is not substantially worse than what was approved. But this will be reasonably easy if the filament is in exactly the same place, etc.

But an LED replacement unit has totally different optical qualities. Are you a photographer, Evan? Do you understand about the film plane, and its relationship to the focal place of the lens? Same thing applies to nav lights -- you invalidate the whole optical design of the lens, when you move the light emitting element around.

On top of the focus issue, there can be issues with the weird spectral qualities of LED light, and how that interacts with the lens.

In general, it's just a really bad idea.

Of course it's unlikely to ever come up -- unless you have an accident. I don't have any legal research tools where I am now, so I can't comment on whether or not there have been many cases.

But speaking as a lawyer, I can say that this is an insurance lawyer's wet dream -- a sailor navigating at night with the totally wrong bulbs in his nav lights. If you do have an accident -- God forbid, of course -- they will have a field day. Whether you care about that or not is, of course, entirely up to you.
__________________
Dockhead is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 24-10-2014, 14:17   #58
Registered User
 
rwidman's Avatar

Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: North Charleston, SC
Boat: Camano Troll
Posts: 3,358
Re: LED Nav Lights

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dockhead View Post
.......... But speaking as a lawyer, I can say that this is an insurance lawyer's wet dream -- a sailor navigating at night with the totally wrong bulbs in his nav lights. If you do have an accident -- God forbid, of course -- they will have a field day. Whether you care about that or not is, of course, entirely up to you.
What is your position on keeping a lookout when underway?
__________________
Ron
HIGH COTTON
Sent from my laptop using Windows 7
rwidman is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 24-10-2014, 14:17   #59
Registered User

Join Date: Mar 2013
Location: East of the river CT
Boat: Oday Mariner 19 , Four Winns Marquis 16 OB, Kingfisher III
Posts: 238
Send a message via Skype™ to Colin A
Re: LED Nav Lights

I like it Charlie, its like an oil change thread on a car website (what is European shell oil anyway) They never end.
Anyways I will leave with one more thought. I spent a number of years as a yacht claims adjuster reviewing cause of loss etc for a large insurance company. We had a claims lab and engineering department in side the company. (actually located near where I worked) When something would come up that required a forensic analysis and there was enough money involved we would certainly send parts to the lab. I don't remember sending a nav light but I did send, propshafts, water pumps, circuit breakers, bilge pumps, seals, stuffing boxes, mast sections etc.
The lab was very good at over analyzing everything, as an example the once created a 20 page report on the different failure modes of rubber impeller pumps.
So while the likelihood of your navlights certification coming into question is fairly remote I would say there are some situations where it could happen.
I do recall one case where a commercial boat struck a cruiser a sleep at anchor and the anchor light did come into question but I'm not sure if it was ever tested but it may have been. (the bigger question in the case was if the boat was anchored in a channel).
__________________
mysite: Colinism.com
Work for
Bass Products
Colin A is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 24-10-2014, 14:28   #60
Moderator
 
Dockhead's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: [S]Hamble (Spring and Fall)[/S], Cowes (Winter), Baltic (Summer) (the boat!); somewhere in the air (me!)
Boat: Cutter-Rigged Moody 54
Posts: 16,746
Re: LED Nav Lights

Quote:
Originally Posted by rwidman View Post
What is your position on keeping a lookout when underway?
Would you like the link to that thread?

My position is that if you compromise the visual watch -- the only one which is required in any case by the COLREGs -- you are risking liability (not to mention death ).

Just as you are if you leave your radar turned off or in standby.

Choosing to take such a risk might be reasonable under some circumstances.

It's for every skipper to decide for himself.

Likewise, with non-standard nav lights -- knock yourself out. Only, the choice is not restore yourself to alert condition with a decent nap which compromises the visual watch. Or run yourself ragged keeping a perfect watch.

That's a serious choice.

With nav lights, it's a little more banal. Spend $100 on a correct LED light fixture? Or save $50 by putting a Dr. LED bulb replacement into your old one, with crazed lenses and corroded contacts, and designed for an incandescent bulb. $50 well saved? Well, it's up to you. It's your boat. And your estate.
__________________

__________________
Dockhead is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Signal Mate LED Nav Lights ? CAELESTIS Marine Electronics 3 09-02-2011 02:45
LED Nav lights holmek Marine Electronics 7 18-04-2010 18:06
LED Nav Lights get 'Approval' GordMay Product or Service Reviews & Evaluations 30 03-09-2009 20:57
Attwood LED NAv lights Hankthelank Navigation 0 25-06-2009 13:41
LED bulbs for nav-lights… dcstrng Electrical: Batteries, Generators & Solar 5 12-06-2008 12:35


Our Communities

Our communities encompass many different hobbies and interests, but each one is built on friendly, intelligent membership.

» More about our Communities

Automotive Communities

Our Automotive communities encompass many different makes and models. From U.S. domestics to European Saloons.

» More about our Automotive Communities

Marine Communities

Our Marine websites focus on Cruising and Sailing Vessels, including forums and the largest cruising Wiki project on the web today.

» More about our Marine Communities


Copyright 2002- Social Knowledge, LLC All Rights Reserved.

All times are GMT -7. The time now is 22:43.


Google+
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2016, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Social Knowledge Networks
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2016, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.

ShowCase vBulletin Plugins by Drive Thru Online, Inc.