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Old 22-10-2014, 05:29   #16
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Re: LED Nav Lights

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Originally Posted by rwidman View Post
In my experience there is no enforcement. Perhaps there is enforcement for ships but in my area people run with nothing or with missing lights all the time. I once watched several different LEO boats pass a group of three boats anchored with no lights and not a one stopped or even hailed them to turn on their lights.
So your argument is; Other people are breaking the law so I should be able to do that as well. Wow brilliant argument......? Next time you get pulled over for speeding try that one out...

Here's a thought, wait until you are directly impacted by a night time boating death involving navigation lights then lets talk.... Wait until you sit through the testimony, arguments for defense and prosecution, forensic nav light investigation findings and the hardship it caused everyone involved then lets have this discussion again.


It is Federal law that your navigation lights meet the COLREGS definition of a navigation light for performance.. How do you know your home made lights do...?

There is no argument about this other than:

A) I choose to break/ignore the law

B) I choose to abide by the law

C) I choose to gamble and will assume any and all liability on my home made navigation lights.

There are no gray areas in the COLREGS as it applies to nav light compliance...

Sorry for the rant but I have been impacted by a night time boating death and the cheapness & penny pinching folks will go to to circumvent the laws astounds me...

Any light is better than no light at all but seriously the price of known compliant navigation lights is now down in the range of replacement bulbs....
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Old 22-10-2014, 06:09   #17
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Re: LED Nav Lights

Quote:
Originally Posted by Maine Sail View Post
So your argument is; Other people are breaking the law so I should be able to do that as well. Wow brilliant argument......? Next time you get pulled over for speeding try that one out...

Here's a thought, wait until you are directly impacted by a night time boating death involving navigation lights then lets talk.... Wait until you sit through the testimony, arguments for defense and prosecution, forensic nav light investigation findings and the hardship it caused everyone involved then lets have this discussion again.


It is Federal law that your navigation lights meet the COLREGS definition of a navigation light for performance.. How do you know your home made lights do...?

There is no argument about this other than:

A) I choose to break/ignore the law

B) I choose to abide by the law

C) I choose to gamble and will assume any and all liability on my home made navigation lights.

There are no gray areas in the COLREGS as it applies to nav light compliance...

Sorry for the rant but I have been impacted by a night time boating death and the cheapness & penny pinching folks will go to to circumvent the laws astounds me...

Any light is better than no light at all but seriously the price of known compliant navigation lights is now down in the range of replacement bulbs....
Calm down, then read my post again. You obviously misunderstood it.
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Old 22-10-2014, 06:12   #18
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Re: LED Nav Lights

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Originally Posted by rwidman View Post
Calm down, then read my post again. You obviously misunderstood it.
Yes, I took it as what those folks were doing was okay because a LEO went by them, so all is good.....

Your two other posts (below) in the thread were also confusing. The culmination of these posts lead me to believe you were justifying the use of non-compliant nav lights and home made nav lights...

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Originally Posted by rwidman View Post
They may approve or disapprove lights on new boats but existing boats only need to meet performance standards. People used to use kerosene lanterns for navigation and anchor lights. Many sailboaters are using solar powered garden lights from Walmart for anchor lights.
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Originally Posted by rwidman View Post
The brand of the navigation lights is irrelevant, what matters is the bulb type if you are considering replacing just the bulbs, not the fixtures.

Standard LED replacement lamps will not do, be sure what you buy are intended for use as marine navigation lights. One will be red, one will be green and they have to be installed in the correct place. A white LED behind a green or red lens will produce very little light.

Replacing the entire fixture is the best plan but it can be expensive.

I apologize if I took it the wrong way..
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Old 22-10-2014, 06:16   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Maine Sail View Post

So your argument is; Other people are breaking the law so I should be able to do that as well. Wow brilliant argument......? Next time you get pulled over for speeding try that one out...

Here's a thought, wait until you are directly impacted by a night time boating death involving navigation lights then lets talk.... Wait until you sit through the testimony, arguments for defense and prosecution, forensic nav light investigation findings and the hardship it caused everyone involved then lets have this discussion again.

It is Federal law that your navigation lights meet the COLREGS definition of a navigation light for performance.. How do you know your home made lights do...?

There is no argument about this other than:

A) I choose to break/ignore the law

B) I choose to abide by the law

C) I choose to gamble and will assume any and all liability on my home made navigation lights.

There are no gray areas in the COLREGS as it applies to nav light compliance...

Sorry for the rant but I have been impacted by a night time boating death and the cheapness & penny pinching folks will go to to circumvent the laws astounds me...

Any light is better than no light at all but seriously the price of known compliant navigation lights is now down in the range of replacement bulbs....
Get involved in an accident with failed or non-conforming nav lights, and you will be in a world of hurt. And don't expect your insurance to pay out, either.

And why would you mess with it, anyway? Real LED nav lights have come way down in cost, and are a totally superior solution. They are fully sealed and potted so no problems with bulb contacts, internal condensation, etc. Why would you take such risks to save such a small amount of money?
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Old 22-10-2014, 06:19   #20
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Re: LED Nav Lights

These are very bright, legal, not really that expensive, draw very little amps and a child can install them, I did anyway
LED Navigation Lights
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Old 22-10-2014, 06:23   #21
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Re: LED Nav Lights

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Originally Posted by Maine Sail View Post
Yes, I took it as what those folks were doing was okay because a LEO went by them, so all is good.....
Go back again and read my post again. Pay special attention to the quote I was responding to about enforcement.

You are responding in a negative way to something that I did not post. Putting words in my mouth that I did not speak.
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Old 22-10-2014, 06:25   #22
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Re: LED Nav Lights

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Get involved in an accident with failed or non-conforming nav lights, and you will be in a world of hurt. And don't expect your insurance to pay out, either..............
Your insurance will pay. They may drop you but they will pay. Just because you did something wrong doesn't relieve them of that responsibility.
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Old 22-10-2014, 06:28   #23
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Re: LED Nav Lights

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Originally Posted by rwidman View Post
Go back again and read my post again. Pay special attention to the quote I was responding to about enforcement.

You are responding in a negative way to something that I did not post. Putting words in my mouth that I did not speak.
As my post indicated it was the culmination of three of your posts that lead me to incorrectly assume you were okay with home made nav lights or boaters skirting the law...
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Old 22-10-2014, 06:43   #24
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Re: LED Nav Lights

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Originally Posted by rwidman View Post
Your insurance will pay. They may drop you but they will pay. Just because you did something wrong doesn't relieve them of that responsibility.
I suggest you read your policy. Most insurance policies have specific exclusions of cover for your own gross negligence and consequences of intentional violations of rules. If you are involved in a collision, and the cause or a cause of the collision is determined to be that you were navigating at night with home-made, non-conforming nav lights, good luck getting anything out of your insurance. You are covered for ordinary negligence -- that's what insurance is for -- but this kind of thing can easily rise to the level of gross negligence.

My policy -- which is a really good one, with $5 million of liability coverage -- has a specific exclusion for failure to maintain the boat and her gear in "a proper state of seaworthiness." Nav lights are fundamental safety gear; broken or nonconforming ones do not fulfill that standard. The insurance company might pay, I guess, if it's in a really good mood, but it has a strong argument to deny all coverage if I go to sea with broken or non-conforming nav lights.
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Old 22-10-2014, 06:44   #25
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Re: LED Nav Lights

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Your insurance will pay. They may drop you but they will pay. Just because you did something wrong doesn't relieve them of that responsibility.
I am not a lawyer. However, if you have non-conforming navigation lights, you have assumed some percentage of liability exposure should damage/injury occur after an incident.

I am not an insurance agent/broker/underwriter/adjuster. However, before contemplating installing non-conforming navigation lights I suggest that you talk to your insurance professional about the requirements placed on you, the boat owner, on your side of the insurance "contract". Because of your comment in quotes above, I promise that you will be very surprised at the results of that conversation.

DockHead beat me to it!
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Old 22-10-2014, 17:42   #26
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Re: LED Nav Lights

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Sorry for the rant but I have been impacted by a night time boating death and the cheapness & penny pinching folks will go to to circumvent the laws astounds me...
Sorry for your loss.

My experience is that problems on water are not related to "minor" conformance issues.

When we operate my Searay at night, w/ 100% conformance and fully functional lighting, my motorized bow spotlight is at-ready to on-demand flash my boat by tapping a switch. This has saved my butt more than once.

The worst was a go fast doing 60 in a 25 heading right at me in a narrow channel. A couple of blinks of me lighting up my boat broke through his brain crust, w/ his boat vectoring off for a miss.

When I operate at night, I cycle through checking the gauges, a visual scan, a binocular scan, a radar scan and a chart scan. This method works for me to ID targets and respond as-appropriate.
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Old 22-10-2014, 18:44   #27
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Re: LED Nav Lights

Thanks all for the information in this thread. My forward fixture is old and the lens is starting to crack so i was looking for LED alternatives. Saw a few "inexpensive" fixtures on Ebay, but am wary of the quality. MarineBeam seems to be a great distributor and knowing that a system is USCG certified simply removes one possible issue should something happen.
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Old 23-10-2014, 08:08   #28
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Re: LED Nav Lights

I don't think having the wrong bulb in a navigation light or even having a burned out bulb rises to the level of "gross negligence". If your insurance policy is that strict or has that sort of loophole for them to get out of paying you really need to go with a different insurer. What if your fixtures are ten years old and the lenses are slightly faded? Is that gross negligence?

And what about the poor guy you hit? He doesn't get paid for his losses because you had the wrong or burned out bulb in your navigation light?

Driving drunk has to be about the most severe example of "gross negligence" there is, yet your insurance remains in effect.

I think you guys are reading too much into this "gross negligence" thing or just parroting what you've read on boating forums.

As for "approved" navigation lights, my copy of the COLREGS (and ones found on the Internet), list only the performance standards, no requirement that any fixtures or bulbs be approved by any agency. Some folks on boating forums would have us believe that if you have Perko lights you would have to buy Perko or replacement lamps to retain approval. That's just not true.
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Old 23-10-2014, 08:22   #29
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Re: LED Nav Lights

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Originally Posted by klmmicro View Post
Thanks all for the information in this thread. My forward fixture is old and the lens is starting to crack so i was looking for LED alternatives. Saw a few "inexpensive" fixtures on Ebay, but am wary of the quality. MarineBeam seems to be a great distributor and knowing that a system is USCG certified simply removes one possible issue should something happen.
That is where I was, and then discovered that the cost for a replacement incandescent light and put an LED in it was very close to the Marinebeam LED, except of course it may not be legal and isn't water proof.
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Old 23-10-2014, 08:28   #30
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Re: LED Nav Lights

I don't know about boat insurance, but in aircraft there is a clause that the aircraft must be "airworthy" which is very well spelled out as to meaning in the CFR's and the pilot must be appropriately rated and current. Without those things, insurance doesn't have to pay.
I assume there may be a "seaworthy" clause in boat insurance? I assume definition of seaworthy is spelled out in the CFR's?

I think there may also be a clause about using the vessel for illegal activities, acts of war etc? Would not operating it while intoxicated be an illegal activity?

This is why I am no lawyer, those were questions by the way, because I think, but do not know.
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