Cruisers Forum
 


Join CruisersForum Today

Reply
 
Thread Tools Rate Thread Display Modes
Old 11-12-2013, 10:29   #76
Senior Cruiser
 
senormechanico's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Aug 2003
Boat: Dragonfly 1000 trimaran
Posts: 5,825
Re: Lead Crystal Batteries

I quit taking this "tech" seriously when they said they didn't know the Peukert factor.
__________________

__________________
Memento,homo, quia pulvis es, et in pulverem reverteris.
senormechanico is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-12-2013, 11:56   #77
Marine Service Provider
 
Maine Sail's Avatar

Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Maine
Boat: CS-36T - Cupecoy
Posts: 3,060
Re: Lead Crystal Batteries

I just found the Betta Batteries MSDS:

Betta Batteries MSDS Sheet

Among other interesting points it is cassified as a: "Valve Regulated Sealed Lead Crystal Battery"

Question: Does it or does it not have a valve?

We keep being told it does not but all the data from EGE, the MSDS which is an official document etc. all say they have a valve?

I also found the name of the manufacturer as: "The Light of Heaven Earth Battery Manufacturing Co. Ltd."

With a little searching it seems "The Light of Heaven Earth Battery Manufacturing Co. Ltd. is really EGE Battery.
__________________

__________________
Marine How To Articles
Maine Sail is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-12-2013, 12:57   #78
Registered User

Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Kimberton PA
Boat: Cabo Rico 38 / Bayfield 32
Posts: 573
Images: 1
Re: Lead Crystal Batteries

Quote:
I also found the name of the manufacturer as: "The Light of Heaven Earth Battery Manufacturing Co. Ltd."
Speechless... Wow!
__________________
Saltyhog is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-12-2013, 13:55   #79
Senior Cruiser
 
StuM's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Nov 2013
Location: Port Moresby,Papua New Guinea
Boat: FP Belize Maestro 43
Posts: 6,709
Re: Lead Crystal Batteries

Quote:
Originally Posted by phil dunn View Post
Here is the reply I just received about EGE. Let me say just one more time before anyone else suggests anything to the contrary, NOBODY OTHER THAN BETTA MAKES OUR LEAD CRSTAL BATTERIES -not in the US, not in China or anywhere, and any others that use the name are not selling what Betta are selling.

E
Would you care to respond to the earlier posting which quoted Betta Lights as saying that Betta Batteries is just a marketing company formed between Betta Lights and EGE to market EGE's lead crystal batteries.

If this is true then clearly Betta does not "make lead crystal batteries" as has been claimed repeatedly , nor did the invent or patent them as previously claimed.
__________________
StuM is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-12-2013, 15:36   #80
Registered User

Join Date: Jul 2013
Location: Usually South Florida these days
Posts: 825
Re: Lead Crystal Batteries

Quote:
Originally Posted by Maine Sail View Post
I just found the Betta Batteries MSDS:

Betta Batteries MSDS Sheet

Among other interesting points it is cassified as a: "Valve Regulated Sealed Lead Crystal Battery"

Question: Does it or does it not have a valve?

We keep being told it does not but all the data from EGE, the MSDS which is an official document etc. all say they have a valve?

I also found the name of the manufacturer as: "The Light of Heaven Earth Battery Manufacturing Co. Ltd."

With a little searching it seems "The Light of Heaven Earth Battery Manufacturing Co. Ltd. is really EGE Battery.
Actually, that MSDS says that Betta is a division of the Chinese manufacturer, so it may not be such a stretch to claim that Betta is the developer/manufacturer/etc., if the parent company holds the rights.

That does still seem to leave several other noteworthy details swinging in the breeze, so to speak.

Unfortunately, many of the most important technical details are still left unexplained or unconfirmed. I for one would still be willing to forgive a little miscommunication about the sales/marketing related details if the performance numbers were shown to be sufficiently impressive.

If the product itself is as good as some people would want the public to believe, there is probably still time for somebody to eat a little crow for a few poorly chosen words & then show the product in it's true light.

A good performing spill-proof battery will sell itself, even if a few of the details are slightly less than perfect. Attempts to gloss over imperfections will likely scare off most of the informed potential buyers (AKA members of this forum & those who listen to them).

A good opening line might sound something like:

Geeze, I had previously been misinformed by my superiors, but now I think that I've gotten to the bottom of it all & here are links to the actual test results & other pertinent tech data.
__________________
pbiJim is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 22-10-2017, 21:49   #81
Registered User

Join Date: Sep 2016
Location: Portsmouth, UK
Boat: OVNI 455CC
Posts: 8
Re: Lead Crystal Batteries

I see this thread has gone quiet for 4 years. I am sailing to South Africa in need of new batteries and see that Deltco offer a Lead Crystal product along with AGMs and Gel batteries. Can anyone update me on their experiences with lead crystal batteries at sea?

I would also welcome any insights into my poor battery performance. I am finding it hard to maintain battery life on my circumnavigation. We draw 5-15 amps from a 500ah bank of supposedly deep cycle sealed lead acid batteries replaced 7months ago in Panama.

At the outset they discharge to 12v after drawing 75% of capacity. Now we have to charge at only 85% capacity on reaching 12v. The batteries are charged by solar panel and wind generator that deliver more than the load in 30 knots and sunshine, but at night I now need to turn the generator on every three hours.

Peukerts Law clearly involved here, but i am still surprised that we don't maintain 12v down to about 50% of capacity. Deltco is the first manufacturer I have found which provides detailed charts and performance specs.
__________________
jpaulstephens is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 22-10-2017, 22:40   #82
Registered User

Join Date: Oct 2015
Location: No home port, full time cruiser
Boat: Amel 53
Posts: 172
Re: Lead Crystal Batteries

Quote:
Originally Posted by jpaulstephens View Post
I see this thread has gone quiet for 4 years. I am sailing to South Africa in need of new batteries and see that Deltco offer a Lead Crystal product along with AGMs and Gel batteries. Can anyone update me on their experiences with lead crystal batteries at sea?

I would also welcome any insights into my poor battery performance. I am finding it hard to maintain battery life on my circumnavigation. We draw 5-15 amps from a 500ah bank of supposedly deep cycle sealed lead acid batteries replaced 7months ago in Panama.

At the outset they discharge to 12v after drawing 75% of capacity. Now we have to charge at only 85% capacity on reaching 12v. The batteries are charged by solar panel and wind generator that deliver more than the load in 30 knots and sunshine, but at night I now need to turn the generator on every three hours.

Peukerts Law clearly involved here, but i am still surprised that we don't maintain 12v down to about 50% of capacity. Deltco is the first manufacturer I have found which provides detailed charts and performance specs.
Your description of your problem is a bit confused... by the time a "12 volt" battery gets down to 12 volts it is near fully discharged. I suspect your problem is that you are never really recharging your batteries.

How is it you determine your batteries are actually "fully charged"?
__________________
billknny is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 23-10-2017, 06:15   #83
Registered User

Join Date: Jan 2017
Posts: 563
Images: 2
Re: Lead Crystal Batteries

Quote:
Originally Posted by jpaulstephens View Post
...
We draw 5-15 amps from a 500ah bank of supposedly deep cycle sealed lead acid batteries replaced 7months ago in Panama.

...Peukerts Law clearly involved here...
That's 0.01-0.03C discharge rate, far from the values where Peukert's Law "hits". (above 0.1C, aka 50Amps discharge.

Even if your bank is 500ah/6V, 15A(@12V) is just 0.06C, where you should be able to draw ~90% of your rated capacity, ~30hours.

Something is fishy to be checked either with that 15A power draw or the bank itself being dead...

Back to the topic: I don't see stellar Peukert coefficients vs decent Gels/AGM's. OTOH Lead Crystal claims lots of cycles, temperature stability and much longer life this needs to be verified though.
__________________
Useful as a fireproof bottom paint...
GTom is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 23-10-2017, 07:34   #84
Registered User

Join Date: Jan 2017
Posts: 563
Images: 2
Re: Lead Crystal Batteries

Besides, apparently lead-crystal needs a specific charger to meet those ideal characteristics they claim:

Quote:
Betta Batteries now offer an extensive range of certified Lead CrystalŽ Battery Chargers through our own sales channel and distribution network. Our patented Lead CrystalŽ Batteries have different charge characteristics compared to conventional lead based batteries and therefore need suitable chargers to function optimally. The Lead Crystal chargers are embedded with optimized micro-processor controlled charging algorithms that ensure correct charging of all Lead CrystalŽ Batteries.
Only a matter of $$$ if you are on shore power, but might be problematic to find the right controller using solar+wind(+hydro).
__________________
Useful as a fireproof bottom paint...
GTom is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 23-10-2017, 08:17   #85
Registered User

Join Date: Sep 2016
Location: Portsmouth, UK
Boat: OVNI 455CC
Posts: 8
Re: Lead Crystal Batteries

Thanks for your reply. My Cristec charger delivers 14.5volts and 125amps to the house batteries, with separate outputs for the engine cranking battery. As the charge continues the current steps down to about 15amps and the voltage drops to 13.25v. The Xantrex battery monitor tracks accumulated amphours and indicates when 100% charge is acheived, having been set up with the total battery capacity.

I log battery and charge details hourly and start the generator when voltage drops to 12.05v.

Having been constrained by the height of battery I can fit in the battery box i couldnt buy AGMs in Panama, but had to go with deepcycle sealed lead-acid batteries. Performance declined steadily from March to September when I load tested my batteries in Darwin and found two dead, and three with full capacity. I bought one and got back to 400Ah capacity.

Initially i could use up to 90Ah before voltage dropped to 12.05volts and we started the generator. Now, 1 month later i can only use 30-40Ah before we need to charge again. If the autopilot and freezer are both working then that's only 3 hours between charges!
__________________
jpaulstephens is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 23-10-2017, 08:22   #86
Registered User

Join Date: Sep 2016
Location: Portsmouth, UK
Boat: OVNI 455CC
Posts: 8
Re: Lead Crystal Batteries

Thanks I hadnt spotted the specialused charger requirement. My Cristec has two settings ; lead Antimony and Lead Calcium which have slightly different charge profiles. Of course the solar and wind charging doesn't go through the Crusted and goes direct, so there may be complications there.
__________________
jpaulstephens is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 23-10-2017, 08:49   #87
Registered User

Join Date: Jan 2017
Posts: 563
Images: 2
Re: Lead Crystal Batteries

Quote:
Originally Posted by jpaulstephens View Post
Performance declined steadily from March to September when I load tested my batteries in Darwin and found two dead, and three with full capacity. I bought one and got back to 400Ah capacity.
Wow, that's quite a quick decay for a VRLA/gel bank!

The charger "issue" for lead crystal might not be that serious, AFAIK you can charge them at the AGM profile. This is the profile of an "official lead-crystal charger"
__________________
Useful as a fireproof bottom paint...
GTom is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 23-10-2017, 15:12   #88
Registered User

Join Date: Jan 2017
Posts: 563
Images: 2
Re: Lead Crystal Batteries

Found a review, their take home message:

Quote:
8.1 Lead crystal batteries
The overall conclusions are that:
  • Based on an assessment of the design technology, the manufacturer’s claims that it is superior to the present generation VRLA battery have some credibility.
  • However, using manufacturer’s published data the case for increased service lifetimes for lead crystal batteries compared to existing VRLA batteries is not well supported.
  • Whilst the cycle life is likely to be significantly improved, this is of less importance in standby duty in the UK and the cycling performance of existing VRLA batteries is, in general, adequate.
  • The float lifetime is of more relevance and the headline claims for lifetimes of 18 to 20 years at 20 °C quoted in some literature are found to be optimistic. The manufacturer’s specification sheets of float service life against temperature indicate that a lifetime of 18 years is expected only at 0 °C, being 12 years at 20 °C and 8 years at 40 °C. Other published plots of expected service float service life, show the range of lifetimes lower than this and the values given are typical of the service lifetime achieved by UK DNOs for existing VRLA batteries. This is considered somewhat surprising when the assessment of the technology suggested that improved lifetime might be expected.
  • Overall, the best assessment is that the float lifetime of lead crystal batteries can reasonably expected to be as good and potentially may be better than the VRLA batteries they would replace. The actual position will not be determined until evidence from long term service experience is obtained and which does not yet exist.
They did address self-discharge in the review and found similar as in VRLM/gel. The only claim remains is the cycle life - which I am reluctant to believe if all other parameters are so similar to gels...
__________________
Useful as a fireproof bottom paint...
GTom is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 23-10-2017, 21:34   #89
Registered User

Join Date: Sep 2016
Location: Portsmouth, UK
Boat: OVNI 455CC
Posts: 8
Re: Lead Crystal Batteries

Thanks again. Most interesting! Given my battery performance so far I feel that I have either
A. bought poor quality batteries
B. Bought the wrong type
C. Not managed them correctly

The latter might be
A. Charge settings - Lead Calcium or Lead Antimony are my options - I use the former
B. The voltage at which I start charging -12.05v
C. The Xantrex battery monitor which indicates when full charge is achieved. Either its settings or it's readings.

I'd be grateful for any suggestions of course ��
__________________
jpaulstephens is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 23-10-2017, 22:14   #90
Registered User

Join Date: Oct 2015
Location: No home port, full time cruiser
Boat: Amel 53
Posts: 172
Re: Lead Crystal Batteries

Quote:
Originally Posted by jpaulstephens View Post
Having been constrained by the height of battery I can fit in the battery box i couldnt buy AGMs in Panama, but had to go with deepcycle sealed lead-acid batteries. Performance declined steadily from March to September when I load tested my batteries in Darwin and found two dead, and three with full capacity. I bought one and got back to 400Ah capacity.
Replacing one battery out of a bank is a sure recipe for killing the rest of it. Every reference on battery management will tell you that!

All batteries in a bank should be the SAME type and age. Otherwise they get different charge profiles, and they die very quickly.

I constantly see people looking to change battery types to solve their problem" but it rarely works. If you can't keep flooded cells alive, AGMs won't help. If AGMs dies early for you, lead crystal won't do any better. I am sure you can find magic fairy dust batteries that will promise they will work for you, but they will not solve the problem either.

You really need to go back to basics and learn how to care for batteries. I worry you are going to buy very expensive batteries and have them be a disappointment.

Our 450 Amp-hr AGM bank has been in FULL TIME cruising service for 7 years. They still work because they have been cared for--not because they are special. They are NEVER discharged below about 60%, and rarely below 70%, they are quickly recharged to 90% every day, with genset and solar and then are topped up to as near full as we can at least once a week.

Discharging batteries down to 12.05 volts is dropping them to about 45% charge. That's much too low as a routine for them to last.
__________________

__________________
billknny is online now   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Batteries and Solar on the hard? KnuckleDragger Electrical: Batteries, Generators & Solar 25 08-04-2013 20:36
How long have your Gel Batteries lasted? bazzer Electrical: Batteries, Generators & Solar 12 28-01-2013 20:45
Dead Batteries After 8 Months? Surely Not! stevensuf Electrical: Batteries, Generators & Solar 34 15-01-2013 12:09
Killed Batteries ? Dockhead Electrical: Batteries, Generators & Solar 31 27-08-2011 05:14
Voltage drop under load, amps read 99% ?? VVD Electrical: Batteries, Generators & Solar 25 28-06-2011 16:25



Copyright 2002- Social Knowledge, LLC All Rights Reserved.

All times are GMT -7. The time now is 09:19.


Google+
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Social Knowledge Networks
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.

ShowCase vBulletin Plugins by Drive Thru Online, Inc.